Pro and Con 1247
Posted 10-14-05, Updated dates concerning key dates in Jesus' life 10-23-05 (see Pro and Con 1249 for details)
Post 41 by Sari, "Is Jesus God, or son of God, or both?"
Title: a question for Christians: Is Jesus God, or son of God, or both
I really want to know how real Christians view Jesus.
Do they view him as God?
Or Son of God?
If He is God, then who was God when Jesus was killed on the Cross?
Besides, Jesus never claimed to be God.
he told the woman in the New Testament, My God and Your God is one.
Moreover, Jesus used to pray to God, if he was God, then he was praying to himself.
I really love Jesus very much, but I don`t think of him as more than just a prophet of God...very much like Moses and Muhammed.
My reply to Sari
> > Is Jesus God, or son of God, or both?
Both. I will show you why I believe this from the Bible, which is God's Holy Word. Inserted parenthetic words are mine, and emphasis is mine.
Proverbs 30:4 says, "Who hath ascended up into heaven (God), or descended? (God) who hath gathered the wind in his fists (God)? who hath bound the waters in a garment (God)? who hath established all the ends of the earth (God)? what is his name (YHWH, Yahweh, or Yah for short), and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"
He has several names, partly because it is given in several languages.
God's son's name in Hebrew is Yahshua, meaning Yah' is Saviour. It can be pronounced Yahshua or Joshua. He is the Messiah, the anointed one, HaMachiach.
In Greek, his name is Iesous.
In English, his name is Jesus. He is the Messiah, the anointed one, Christ.
Jesus is also called Emmanuel, or Immanuel, which means God with us.
His coming as Immanuel was prophesied in the Old Testament. Isaiah 7:14 says, "the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
In the New Testament, Matthew 1:21-23 says, "she (the virgin Mary) shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
Jesus is also called the WORD, the KING OF KINGS, AND the LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:11-16 says of his Second Coming, "I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
Isaiah 54:5 says, "thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name."
Isaiah 9:6 says, "unto us a child (Jesus) is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The Son of God, called the Word, is not only God, he is the Creator.
John 1:1-4,14 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Jesus speaks both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament.
Psalm 2:1-7 (OT) says, "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (YHWH, Yahweh), and against his anointed (Christ), saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD (YHWH, Yahweh, God) hath said unto me (Yahshua, Jesus), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
The Son of God is both the first and the last, LORD of the Old Testament and Lord of the New Testament.
In the Old Testament, In Isaiah 44:6, the Son of God tells us exactly who he is. He says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first (YHWH King of Israel), and I am the last (YHWH of hosts, the redeemer, Immanuel, YAHshua, Jesus); and beside me there is no God."
Jesus also spoke in the New Testament. In Revelation 1:8, he said, "I am Alpha and Omega (i.e., the first and last), the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is (in our days), and which was (at his First Coming), and which is to come (at his Second Coming), the Almighty."
In Revelation 1:17, John said, "when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he (Jesus) laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (YHWH) and the offspring of David (Jesus)".
II Corinthians 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself".
Isaiah 45:21,22 says, "...I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
> > If He is God, then who was God when Jesus was killed on the Cross?
Not only is God omniscient (all knowing), he is omnipotent (all powerful) and omnipresent (present everywhere), and he can't die.
John 4:24 says, "God is a spirit".
Acts 17:28 explains that, "in him we live, and move, and have our being".
Nevertheless, to be sure that no one could claim that God died, when Jesus was about to die, he said, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 15:34 says, "at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
> > Jesus never claimed to be God.
In John 10:30, Jesus said, "I and my Father are one."
In John 10:36-38, Jesus said, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
In John 8:23,24, Jesus said, "Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he (God the Father), ye shall die in your sins.
I Corinthians 15:47 explains, "The first man (Adam, created by God) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (the second Adam, created by God, i.e., Jesus) is the Lord from heaven."
In John 8:58, Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am."
> > he told the woman in the New Testament, My God and Your God is one.
And in John 10:30, Jesus said, "I and my Father are one."
> > Moreover, Jesus used to pray to God, if he was God, then he was praying to himself.
Jesus had two complete natures. He was fully man and fully God. As man, he did not know everything. As God, he knew everything. Nevertheless, as an example of what we should do, he prayed to the Father. Therefore, his prayers are recorded in Scripture, and what he said is information we needed to know.
> > I really love Jesus very much, but I don`t think of him as more than just a prophet of God...very much like Moses and Muhammed.
The Son of God is the one that gave Moses the Ten Commandments at Mt. Sinai. He is greater than Moses and Muhammed.
Isa 48:16-18 says, "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I (the Son of God) have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD (YHWH), and his Spirit (Holy Spirit), hath sent me (the Son of God). Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer (i.e., Jesus), the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD (YHWH) thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river".
The Son of God was, and still is, the one of the Godhead (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) that deals with mankind.
Isaiah 54:5 says, "thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel (Jesus); The God of the whole earth shall he be called."
In John 14:6-12, Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him."Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
Love in Christ, Marilyn Agee
My reply to incoming email, omitted because of the length
Thanks for sending me that URL....
> > In order for Jesus to be born at Tabernacles, His conception had to occur 9 months prior! That would have put His conception during the 'darkest' time of the year, i.e. at the 'winter solstice'! I personally believe that in 4 b.c., the year of Jesus' conception, "the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month," Kislev 24, was "the winter solstice"= the darkest and shortest day of the whole year! I believe that on that very darkest of days, the "LIGHT OF THE WORLD" became Flesh!
> > 18: "Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of the LORD's temple was laid, consider it. 19: Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth: from this day will I bless you."...
> > I say the above is a "mysterious promise" because neither foundation- for Solomon's Temple, nor the Second Temple, was laid in the ninth month of Kislev, but instead...both were laid in the "second month" of Iyar!!! (i Kings 6:37; Ezra 3:8). To "what" was the Lord referring in this prophetic passage? 1 Corinthians 3:11 says: "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." ...
I think Sunday, Kislev 24, 3756 (Dec. 5, BC 6, Julian, day #1719570) (Dec. 3, BC 6, Gregorian), was the day of Jesus' conception. The winter solstice was not until December 21 (Gregorian), so what we call winter had not yet begun. However, if the Bible only recognises summer and winter, our Autumn would be part of the winter.
Note: Since then I've done a lot more checking. Some Calendar Converters are off by one Gregorian year in BC years, because they insert a zero year between BC 1 and 1 AD as astronomers do. Julian years don't insert a zero year. It looks like the Conception should be Kislev 24, 3756, Sunday, (Dec. 5, BC 6, Julian). See Haggai 2:18,19. Jesus' birth should be Tishri 1, 3757 (Sept. 4, BC 5, Julian). The Crucifixion should be Nisan 13, 3790, Thursday, (April 6, 30 AD Julian). I'll post more details on Pro and Con 1249.
Haggai 2:18,19 says, "Consider (sum lebab, take to heart) now from this day and UPWARD (maal, high overhead, i.e., at the Rapture), from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month (Kislev 24, 5766; Dec. 25, 2005, Christmas), even from the day that the foundation (Jesus Christ, I Cor. 3:11) of the LORD'S temple (the spiritual one, the temple of the Holy Spirit, i.e., the Head of the Body of Christ) was laid, consider it. Is the seed (Jesus, Gen. 3:15) yet in the barn? (symbolic of the womb) yea (Yes, i.e., the incarnation of Jesus was on Kislev 24), as yet the vine (Jesus, John 15:1,5), and the fig tree (Israel, Joel 1:6,7), and the pomegranate (the Bride, 'my spouse,' Song 4:3), and the olive tree (Israel, Psa. 128:3), hath not brought forth: from this day (Sunday, Kislev 24, 5766; Dec. 25, 2005, Christmas) will I bless you."
Hanukkah, Kislev 25, 5766, is the last time that olives can be offered as firstfruits, or any firstfruits offered. Olives, harvested from first of November until Hanukkah, Dec. 26, 2005, could yield oil for the lamps of the wise virgin firstfruits on Dec. 25, 2005, Christmas. The foolish virgins might have to wait 8 days for new olive oil to be pressed. By that time the 8-day Hanukkah Festival would be ending.
The Feast of Hanukkah is the eight-day Festival of Lights, the Feast of the Dedication of the Temple. The wise virgins are not only the temple of the Holy Spirit, they are lights. Their lamps are lit. They follow Jesus, the Light of Life. In John 8:12, Jesus said, "I am the LIGHT OF LIFE: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."
The number eight means new order. That would be very appropriate if the Rapture took place on Kislev 24, the Eve of Hanukkah. The 25th, Hanukkah, would sure be the first day of a new order.
Joel 1:12 says, "The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field (i.e., men), are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men." That sounds like the Tribulation will have started for those left behind.
It seems that Jesus was born on the Saturday Sabbath, Tishri 1, 3757(Sept. 2, BC 5, Julian) (August 31, BC 5, Gregorian).
Note: That date changed when I checked out other Calendar Converters and YourSky. Jesus' birth would probably be Tishri 1, 3756 (Monday, Sept. 4, BC 5, Gregorian). See the next post for more details.
The nine months of gestation would have been (1) Teveth, (2) Shevat, (3) Adar, (4) Nisan, (5) Iyar, (6) Sivan, (7) Tamuz, (8) Av and (9) Elul.
The gestation period is considered to be 38 to 40 weeks. Tishri 1, 3757, the Feast of Trumpets, would have been the last day in the 39th week for Mary. It fits beautifully.
Hosea 6:3 says of "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." The former rain starts on Tishri 1, date of the First Advent. The latter rain starts on Nisan 1, date of the Second Advent.
The first month, first day of the month is set in Eze. 29:17. Then verse 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth (Second Advent, Latter Rain), and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Word, Christ) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."
> > The Lord told Sarah this, in Genesis 18, verses 10 and 14: "And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son." ...
> > Do you see...that the Lord PLAINLY tells us that there is a "season" which HE, HIMSELF calls "the time of life !" Moreover, this "season" occurs at the VERY time of agricultural NEW LIFE ....the ONLY time of the year when the natural NEW SHOOTS SPRING FORTH OUT OF THE EARTH! It is the time of the fresh, new, GREEN shoots and branches! It is the time of the fullness of the rivers...with the "spring run-off" occurs from the winter rains! It is the time OF RESURRECTION, THE TIME OF LIGHT, OF RENEWED HOPE, OF REVIVAL AND QUICKENING! It is the time of the "RESTORATION TO LIFE !"
> > IT IS THE TIME OF SPRING !
> > The Lord promised Sarah that He would RETURN "LIFE" to Sarah, at the TIME OF LIFE, whereby her long-dried up "reproductive juices" would again flow in order to allow her to conceive the son by appointment, IN THE FOLLOWING SPRINGTIME!
> > Now, we see it is no wonder that Y'shua showed up in Israel, to begin His earthly ministry "at the time of life!" He appeared to them at "the end of the latter rain" in order to begin TO RENEW HOPE, TO RESTORE LIFE, TO QUICKEN, AND TO REVIVE His own!
> > Y'shua of Israel DIED and was BURIED "at the time of life" in order that ALL men might have the opportunity to BE RAISED IN "THE NEWNESS OF LIFE" ! But, "His own" received Him not, so therefore, He SPIRITUALLY opened the Kingdom of Heaven so that ALL men might enter!...
I think "the time of life" is when Adam was created, probably just as Elul 29 ended at 6 PM. This "kosmos" began to operate as it does today on Tishri 1. Jesus, the second Adam was born on Tishri 1. To me, that is the true "time of life."
> > You know from previous writings about what I call "the year of perfect order" whereby Nisan 10 falls on Sabbath, Nisan 14 on Wednesday, and Nisan 17 falls on Sabbath! Attention has previously been called to the fact that ONLY the years of 27 a.d. and 30 a.d. did the "year of perfect order" occur between the years of 25 a.d. and 36 a.d. and I believe the Creator made sure that would happen so WE WOULD KNOW that those TWO years out of that group were the correct years that the Anointed One came to Israel and to Atone for sin!
I think the Crucifixion was on Thursday, Nisan 13, 3790 (April 6, 30 AD, Julian).
> > There are ONLY two more years of "perfect order" between 2005 and 2019 a.d. and they are: years 2006 and 2009! And again, I believe this is a huge clue planned by the Creator, in order for us NOW, TO BE ABLE TO KNOW!
> > There is a phenomenon that occurs with EVERY year of perfect order: that is...that EXACTLY 1335 days AFTER Nisan 17/18, Resurrection Day, "the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month" arrives, of course on Kislev 24, at the eve of the Feast of Dedication .
The 1335 days of Dan. 12:12,13 start Mid-Trib and run on into the Millennium, when Daniel will stand in his plot of ground in Israel. I don't see how the 1335 days could apply at any other time.
> > With the opening of Jacob's Trouble on Nisan 17/18, the 1260th day of the Tribulation, the EXACT MIDDLE of the Tribulation, falls within the "Days of Awe"...during which the PHYSICAL Kingdom of David will be FIRST inaugurated in Heaven, at the time that Messiah Y'shua "takes His great power and begins to reign" as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS...over ALL the Universe!
I think the time of Jacob's trouble is one day, Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. Dan. 12:1 says, "And at that time (when the False Prophet will come to the end of his reign, Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION even to that same time: and at that time (Tishri 1) thy people (the 144,000, Rev. 7:1-14) shall be delivered (malat, escape; i.e., be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture), every one that shall be found written in the book."
> > Just for a few more, short months...until next spring, which is OUR TIME (THE CHURCH'S TIME) TO "WALK IN THE NEWNESS OF LIFE" ETERNAL !
First, I want to see if the Rapture will be on Kislev 24 (Dec. 25, Christmas).
Post on Five Doves site
> > Anonymous (3 Oct 2005)
News Event as a Sign or Wonder
Sep 29 2005
Left to Right:
European Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner, UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, Condi Rice and Javier Solana...
Can you read the writing on the wall?
Whose flags cover the three zeros?
Rita became a hurrican during this "Quartet" meeting to discuss Israel, during the 60th UN General Assembly.
Wow! That picture is an eye-opener. Thanks so much for posting the URL. Who would have thought of the meeting of the quartet as a clue to the 666? Those days must be getting close.
The writing on the wall in Dan 5:28 says, "PERES (meaning divided); Thy kingdom is divided."
In our days, the writing on the wall ties the 666 to the UN.
It is also interesting that Shimon Perez is backing the modern-day parting of the Holy Land.
Joel 3:2 says, "I will also gather all nations (i.e., the united nations), and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and PARTED MY LAND."
As you know, I think the False Prophet will head up the UN during the Great Tribulation..
Rev. 13:6,7 says, "he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN (i.e., the time is just after the Rapture). And ... POWER WAS GIVEN HIM OVER ALL KINDREDS, AND TONGUES, AND NATIONS." I think he will be the Tribulation Pope. He will head up the UR (United Religions) and since he is over "nations," he must also be head of the UN.
THE FALSE PROPHET
Of the False Prophet, Rev. 13:12 says, "he exerciseth ALL THE POWER OF THE FIRST BEAST". Verse 18 says that "his number is Six hundred three score and six."
Hope the hurricanes did not cause you trouble. My neice was on the road from Houston to San Antonio for 11 hours.
I think of New Orleans, the Gulf Coast, and the hurricanes Katrina and Rita. Whew! New Orleans was flooded by both, but not as much the second time.
Since the hurricanes roared and disaster came to New Orleans, I'm amazed that Amos 3:6-8 says, "When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets. The Lion has roared, who will not fear!" That sounds like a warning.
After Rita struck, someone saw a rainbow in a clear sky when the Sun was shining. That reminds me of the rainbow that was over our house on Monday, September 19, 2005. For me, the two rainbows bookended the destruction in New Orleans. Agape
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