Pro and Con 1251

Posted 10-29-05

Incoming e-mail, Re: Knowing the day of the rapture

Thank you for your response to my questions.

Seeing the events that are being fulfilled and that are to be fulfilled in our day, or modern day prophecy is an amazing phenomenon. Knowing this myself, I believe that we are very close to the soon (quick) rapture of the church and then the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. I personally believe that because "knowledge has increased" in our day, as stated in Daniel, we can literally see signs of the end times and corroborate them with Biblical references. There are also so many theories, postulations, ideas and guesses communicated through visions, dreams, personal revelations, etc. While I don't feel the exact day and hour of the rapture can be predicted, I do not scorn those who do. If a given predicted date comes and goes that person's credibility is not necessarily lost. They and those who choose to judge them must realize, as I think you know, that their motives are pure. Who am I to judge....

My current charge is to realize that we know many things will be happening in the near future. We know the Bible is true and the Lord is returning in this generation. The signs all around us are overwhelming and those who ignore them will not be ready when the Lord comes. Billy Graham recently had a message about surviving life's storms. I liken our current times to an approaching storm. When I lived in the mid-west you could see the clouds form and the wind blow, and knew the storm was near. But, I now recall something else. Just before the actual storm, there was an eerie calm, and birds would disappear in the trees and be silent, then the storm would come. We see the storm coming. The church is like the birds to disappear just before the storm. I think that Jesus speaks mostly of the tribulation time when he speaks in Matt 24, but gives a hint of the rapture. In Luke 21 there is a bit more evidence to point to our being rescued in verses 34-36, particularly verse 36 as is stated, "Be always on the watch and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." This is truly an amazing verse to me because it says in effect to watch-pray to be worthy-be instantly before Jesus, at the crown judgement. There is no specific time element here. Although "the time" is set I believe, it is only a variable interval for humans. Like a sudden storm, lightning bolt, accident, earthquake, etc., the rapture will truly occur in the blink of an eye, like a reflex.

I'm not sure if you were the one to say Jesus is represented by the fourth candle in the Menorrah, therefore not bound by time, having no beginning or end.

Also, in Matt 24: 32...you know that summer is near. Jesus referred many times to signs in seasons....But for me, if it occurs before, on one of those days or sometime thereafter I will be ready to go. God's blessings to you.

My reply

I'm hoping for the Rapture on Hanukkah now. Our Christmas day and Hanukkah overlap by 6 hours this year (between 6 PM and midnight).

Haggai 2:18,19 says, "Consider (lit., take it to heart) now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month (Kislev 24, Eve of Hanukkah), even from the day that the foundation (Jesus is the foundation, I Cor. 3:11) of the LORD'S temple was laid (Jesus' conception, Kislev 24, 3756, Dec. 5, BC 6, Julian), consider it. Is the seed (seed of the woman, Jesus) yet in the barn (the word is feminine)? yea (YES), as yet the vine (Jesus), and the fig tree (Israel), and the pomegranate, and the olive tree (Israel and the Gentiles can be grafted in), hath not brought forth: from this day will I bless you."

> > The church is like the birds to disappear just before the storm.

Thanks. I hadn't thought of that. I used to live in Indiana...

I too remember that eeire feeling before a storm hit. The air looked slightly yellow, and was suffocatingly still--everything was still. No breeze turned a leaf. I assumed that the birds flew out of the way of the coming storm or huddled in places where the wind wouldn't pluck them out. Whatever, they weren't singing in the trees.

Starting with the huge tsunami last year, and considering the huge earthquakes and the hurricanes Katrina, Rita, Stan and Wilma, I wonder if this is "the beginning of sorrows". Mt 24:7,8 said, "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows."

Luke 21:11,25,28 says, "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven....And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring...And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

The sea and waves roaring really started with the huge tsunami in the Indian Ocean at the end of last year...December 26...That was so drastic and unusual, it could be a sign.

Last night, I saw a huge waterspout in the TV news about Wilma. This morning, the news said that the storm surge is greater than before, even though Wilma is downgraded to category 3. The sea and the waves are definitely roaring. Our time is coming soon.

> > I'm not sure if you were the one to say Jesus is represented by the fourth candle in the Menorrah, therefore not bound by time, having no beginning or end.

That wasn't me, I go along with Josephus, who showed that the candlestick in the temple represented the planets, including the Sun, i.e., Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. II Cor. 12:2 is about Paul being caught up to the third heaven. To me, that is (1) Mars, (2) Jupiter and (3) Saturn.

The Hanukkah menorah is different. It has 8 candles besides the center servant candle, because the oil for one day lasted 8 days at the Feast of Dedication of the temple. I hope that foreshadows the Rapture, for we are wise virgins with our lamps burning, and we are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Do you suppose the parable of the 10 virgins ties in with Hanukkah? Could the eight candles represent years? Let's see. How about (1) 1998 (the 6000th year since Adam was cast out of Eden), (2) 1999, (3) 2000, (4) 2001, (5) 2002, (6) 2003, (7) 2004, and (8) 2005?

I'm glad you are ready. So am I. That day can't come too soon for me. Agape

CHANUKA AND ITS RELATIONSHIP TO THE PROPHECIES OF THE SECOND TEMPLE PERIOD

by: Menachem Leibtag: http://www.vbm-torah.org/chanuka/2chanpac.htm

"(10) On the 24th day of the ninth [month], in the second year of Daryavesh (Darius), the word of the Lord came to the prophet Chagai... (15) And now, take note from this day forward, as long as no stone has been laid on another in the House of the Lord, if one came... (18) Take note from this day forward, from the 24th day of the ninth month, from the day that the foundation was laid for the Lord's House - take note... for from this day on I will send blessings. (20) And the word of the Lord came to Chagai a second time on the 24th of the month: (21) Speak to Zerubavel, the governor of Judah: I am going to shake the heaven and the earth. (22) And I will overturn the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the might of the kingdoms of the nations. I will overturn chariots and their drivers; horses and their riders shall fall, each by the sword of his fellow."

It is clear from verses 15 and 18 above that the construction of the Temple was to begin on the next day, the 25th of Kislev. Several hundred years later, that very same Temple was rededicated on the 25th of Kislev, and the rabbinically ordained holiday of Chanuka was instituted to commemorate that event.

Interesting article: "Talmudic Evidence for the Messiah at 30 C.E."

by Nicholas Federoff: http://www.windowview.org/JandG.files/frms/talmds.frm.html

...We read in the Jerusalem Talmud:
"Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open" (Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157). [the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE]

A similar passage in the Babylonian Talmud states:
"Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves" (Soncino version, Yoma 39b)....

The clear indication is that the whole community had lost the Lord's attention in relation to something that occurred in 30 CE The yearly atonement achieved through the typical Yom Kippur observance was not being realized as expected....

What did the Jewish nation do in 30 CE to merit such a change at Yom Kippur? By some accounts, on April 5, 30 CE (i.e., on the 14th of Nisan, the day of the Passover sacrifice) the Messiah, Yeshua, was cut off from Israel, himself put to death as a sacrifice for sin....The mechanism providing forgiveness of sin changed in 30 CE...

Incoming e-mail, Re: 5 Doves reply

I hope you are right - personally, I would love to with Jesus rather than go through the tribulation. I also like your reasoning of the scriptures - I can easily see your second rapture, but am still struggling with your first one. Thanks for hanging in there with me.

My reply

Isa. 57:1-3 shows the sequence. It says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, escapes), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY (asaph, gathered, removed, evacuated) FROM THE EVIL TO COME. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. But draw NEAR hither, ye sons of the sorceress (i.e., the Beast and False Prophet), the seed of the adulterer and the whore" (i.e., the Tribulation is near). Agape

"Reply to Marilyn and Matt" from Five Doves site

Weldon Wright (4 Oct 2005): http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2005/weldonw104-2.htm

Although not a popular view with most the Doves, there are a few of us who believe that the rapture occurs when the Day of the Lord begins - some future Feast of Trumpets. I personally believe this is right after the sixth seal and the sixth trumpet in The Revelation. I believe the church is here during the Trumpets which is the wrath of Satan, but God uses it as a warning to unbelievers, and as a testing of believers. Then to me, the rapture occurs, the Day of the Lord begins and God pours out his wrath rapidly in the bowl judgements. I also think the marriage takes place in the seven days (Days of Awe) between Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur, and then we return with Jesus on Yom Kippur. To me this fits scripture without stretching or taking it out of context a lot more than any other supposition (Pretrib, mid-trib, etc) out there - and you don't have to make a seven day wedding feast symbolize seven years of Tribulation - it's seven days! Blessings to all. Weldon

My reply

> > there are a few of us who believe that the rapture occurs when the Day of the Lord begins - some future Feast of Trumpets.

That is when I think the second Rapture will take place. It is the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints. It takes place after the beginning of the Day of God's Wrath in Rev. 6:17 and before Rev. 8:1, when the seventh seal is broken.

Rev 6:15-17 says, "the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne (Christ, on the Day of the Lord), and from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB: FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH (CHRIST'S, NOT SATAN'S) IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"

Amos 5: 18 says, "WOE TO YOU WHO LONG FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD! Why do you long for the day of the LORD? THAT DAY WILL BE DARKNESS, NOT LIGHT."

Of those caught up in the second Rapture, only the 144,000 Israelites will be added to the Bride group that was caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Rev 14:1-5 says, "I looked, and, lo, a Lamb (Christ) stood on the mount Sion (the Heavenly New Jerusalem), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and NO MAN COULD LEARN THAT SONG BUT THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, WHICH WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins (having become wise). These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

> > I personally believe this is right after the sixth seal and the sixth trumpet in The Revelation.

I think it is right after the sixth seal and before the 7th SEAL is broken in Rev. 8:1. Until that 7th seal is broken, no trumpet judgments will hit Earth.

The seals, trumpets, and vials are arranged like circle clocks. Draw a large circle. Put in it 6 touching circles around a 7th circle in the middle. These represent the 7 seals. In the 7th circle is another circle clock. These circles represent the 7 trumpets that come out of the 7th seal. In the middle of the 7th seal, draw 7 more circles. These are the vials. They come out of the 7th trumpet, none overlapping the other trumpets or the seals.

> > I believe the church is here during the Trumpets which is the wrath of Satan

The seven trumpets are the Lord's wrath and 1Th 5:9 says, "GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

Rev. 6:16,17 says men will say to the rocks "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne (Christ, when the Sign of the Son of Man [Mt. 24:30] is seen on the Day of the Lord), and from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB: FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS (CHRIST'S) WRATH IS COME."

Eze 38:18-20 tells us about God's/Christ's wrath. It says, "it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (paniym, face, i.e., in the Sign of the Son of Man), and the mountains (i.e., asteroids) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."

This will take place when the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea and the asteroid of Rev. 8:10 wipes out Babylon. When the seven trumpets are given to the seven angels, but before they begin to sound, another angel symbolically puts fire of the altar in a spherical incense burner and casts it upon the Earth. Then the 7 angels start to blow their 7 trumpets.

The seven trumpet judgments describe what happens when the asteroids impact Earth. After some time has gone by, the seven vials show what the ultimate result of the wrath of the Lamb will be. For instance, in Rev. 8:9, "the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed." In Rev. 16:3, "every living soul died in the sea."

> > to me, the rapture occurs, the Day of the Lord begins and God pours out his wrath rapidly in the bowl judgements.

To me, the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, then the7-year Tribulation begins and the Beast begins to rule. He rules 3.5 years. Mid-Trib, the False Prophet takes the reins of leadership from the Beast as the Great Tribulation begins. That time is to be shortened when the great and terrible Day of the Lord begins. The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place, then the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth. After some time has gone by, the vials sum up the destruction that hit on the Day of Destruction, the great and terrible Day of the Lord.

Job 21:29, 30 says, "do ye not know...the wicked is reserved to the DAY OF DESTRUCTION? they shall be brought forth to THE DAY OF WRATH."

Isa 13:6 says, "Howl ye; for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand; it shall come as a DESTRUCTION FROM THE ALMIGHTY" (Christ, Rev. 1:8).

Joel 1:15 says, "Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand, and as a DESTRUCTION FROM THE ALMIGHTY (Christ) shall it come."

Joel 2:1,2 says, "Blow ye the TRUMPET in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A DAY OF DARKNESS and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of THICK DARKNESS, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (Gog's army); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."

> > I also think the marriage takes place in the seven days (Days of Awe) between Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur

I think the Marriage of the Lamb takes place on one day, the Feast of Trumpets at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation. As soon as the Bride group that were caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture are gathered to the General Assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23), and the 144,000 Israelites caught up from Earth in the Pre-Wrath Rapture, are gathered to the General Assembly in Heaven, The Coronation of Christ will take place. Then the Marriage of the Lamb will take place. After that, Christ will be seated as Judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ while both Heaven and Earth are quiet out of respect (Rev. 8:1; Hab. 2:20). The saints in Heaven will receive their rewards while the unbelievers on Earth receive the wrath of God.

Rev. 11:15-19 says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he (Christ) shall REIGN for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and wast (at the First Advent), and art to come (7 months later at the Second Advent on Nisan 1, the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (at the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST), and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

The two stone tablets with the 10 commandments on them are dumped out of the Ark onto the Earth. They represent the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10. The worldwide earthquake leaves all the cities in shambles. Every wall will fall.

Rev. 16:19 says, "the great city (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts, and THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL: AND GREAT BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of HIS WRATH."

Rev. 18:21 says, "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone (i.e., the asteroid of Rev. 8:10), and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city BABYLON be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

In Zech. 5:3,4, The binary asteroid, "THE CURSE THAT GOETH FORTH (orbits) OVER THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH...every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it (one of the stone tablets); and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it (the other stone tablet). I will bring it (the binary asteroid that is twice as long as wide) forth, saith the LORD of hosts (Christ, Isa. 44:6), and it shall enter into the house of the thief (the False Prophet, the second Son of Perdition), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Beast, the Tribulation Pope, who claims infallibility): and it shall remain in the midst of his house (in Babylon), and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof."

Zech 5:10,11 says, "Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah (largest wheat measure, i.e., the world church)? And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar (Babylon, Gen. 11:2; Dan. 1:2): and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base" (the foundation of the Tower of Babel).

> > and then we return with Jesus on Yom Kippur

I think the Second Advent will be 7 months later, on the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year.

Zeph. 2:1-5 says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired (Israel, in 1948); Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you (on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets). Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID (sa^thar, BE ABSENT, i.e., be raptured) IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast".

The asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 will impact Earth at NOON on the great and terrrible Day of the Lord. Therefore, the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place between 6 PM, when that date begins, and the following noon.

At that time, the bottomless pit will be opened, freeing the demons to torment men five months (Rev. 9). I doubt that we will return with Christ until after those five months are up. Eze. 39:12,13 shows that it will actually be 7 months later, i.e., Nisan 1 in a Hebrew Leap Year.

Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them (those of Gog's army that were killed when the asteroid hit the Mediterranean Sea on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets), that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (i.e., at the Second Advent 7 months later), saith the Lord GOD."

I think the darkness of Tishri 1 will still make the Day of Atonement a dark day.

Of the Second Advent, Zec 14:4-9 says, "his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and THE LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, THAT THE LIGHT SHALL NOT BE CLEAR, NOR DARK (therefore it is not the Day of the Lord, the Day of Darkness): But it shall be one day (Nisan 1) which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD (Christ) shall be king over all the earth: in that day (IN THE SPRING) shall there be one LORD, and his name one." Agape

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