Pro and Con 1255

Posted 11-12-05


On the afternoon of Nov. 10, I was driving down a steep hill on Orange Terrace, Riverside, CA, near its intersection with Trautwine to go to McDonald's. It had been raining lightly off and on during the day. In front of me, there was a large thick black cloud spread wide in front of some white clouds and blue sky I could see above it. I started to look for a silver lining, then was amazed, for right there in front of me was a clean-cut rectangular doorway with a bright white threshold in the middle of the black cloud. Through the open doorway, I could see blue sky and little white clouds off in the distance. The open doorway just stayed long enough for me to take it all in as I went down the hill. It began to break up as I turned right on Trautwine. I can't think of anything natural that could have punched a smooth-sided perfectly rectangular hole in the middle of that black cloud. All outer edges of the black cloud were irregular.

I'm happy that the door was open. Rev 3:8 says, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name."

Revolutions of the Wheel of Time

By Marilyn Agee

I now understand better why God said, "Let there be lights (i.e., the Sun and Moon) in the firmament (expanse of space) of the heaven (lit., heavens) to divide the day (when the Sun is up) from the night (when the Sun is down); and let them (both Sun and Moon) be for SIGNS, and for SEASONS, and for DAYS, and YEARS" (Gen. 1:14).

One mark on the Wheel of Time, Tishri 1, repeats over and over as it counts the years. It started on the Saturday when God rested after creating Adam. That day was Saturday, Tishri 1, 283 BJE (before the Jewish Era), September 18, BC 4044.

Psa 81:3,4 says, "Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day (Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1). For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the God of Jacob."

The Hebrew calendar is based on three astronomical events regulated by the wind, or breath, of God.

(1) The rotation of the Earth on its axis takes one day
(2) The rotation of the Moon around the Earth takes about one month
(3) The rotation of the Earth around the Sun takes one year

The sign in Rev. 12:1,2,5 marked the day Jesus was born. It will mark the day of his Coronation, which is the Day of the Lord, the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the Marriage of the Lamb, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Day of God's Wrath, all on his birthday.

Rev. 12:1,2,5 says, "there appeared a great wonder (lit., sign) in heaven; a woman (Virgo) CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, AND THE MOON UNDER HER FEET, and upon (or over) her head a crown of twelve stars (Corona Borealis): And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered....And she brought forth a man child (Jesus), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God (on Ascension Day, 30 AD), and to his throne" (in the "third heaven", i.e., Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, II Cor. 12:2).

This sign marks the true beginning of the Hebrew Year on the Feast of Trumpets every year. Before Jerusalem was taken and the temple burned in 70 AD, I think the year was set by sighting the Crescent Moon UNDER THE FEET OF VIRGO. Since then, the New Year has been set mathematically, and it can be off a couple of days. The Encyclopedia Judaica says that Tishri 1 on the Hebrew Calendar can be as much as two days before the visible crescent new moon.

Stewarton Bible School says, "...we allow at least 24 hours after a conjunction for a first sighting of the new moon." The conjuction is the Dark Moon. It is not visible.

NEW YEARS DAY - Among all the other NYDs, Virgo is clothed with the Sun and the Moon under her feet on the following dates. I have saved these YourSky charts on my computer as I followed the trend. Here is the one for Sept 4, 5 BC, when Jesus was born.

Tishri 1, -283 BJE = Sept 18, 4044 BC, Saturday, when God rested
Tishri 1, 3757 = Sept 4, 5 BC, when Jesus was born
Tishri 1, 5766 = Oct 6, 2005
Tishri 1, 5767 = Sept 25, 2006
Tishri 1, 5768 = Sept 15, 2007
Tishri 1, 5769 = Oct 2, 2008
Tishri 1, 5770 = Sept 21, 2009
Tishri 1, 5771 = Sept 11, 2010
Tishri 1, 5772 = Sept 29, 2011
Tishri 1, 5773 = Sept 19, 2012

To me, the Sign in Rev. 12:1-5 proves that Jesus was born on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, not on the Feast of Tabernacles, as many teach.

Hosea 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." The former rain comes on Tishri 1 (date of the First Advent). The latter rain comes on Nisan 1 (date of the Second Advent).

Eze 29:17 also gives the date of the Second Advent. It says, "in the first month, in the first day of the month" (Nisan 1, month of Passover, Eze. 45:18,21). Verse 21 says, "In that day (i.e., Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

The Tabernacle was set up on Nisan 1 Ex. 40:2 says, "On the first day of the first month shall thou set up the tabernacle of the tent of the congregation."

Act 15:16 says, "After this I will return (the Second Advent will be on Nisan 1), and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up."

Incoming e-mail, Re: 24 elders

I have been reading your site every week for two years and I just want you to know how much I appreciate all your hard work and faithfulness. I have learned SO MUCH from you and while I don’t agree with you on every little fine point, {not to worry---I don’t agree with anybody on every little thing} I value your ideas and your teaching more than you can possibly know. Not only your Bible knowledge is a wonderful treasure for me but the love you show in your emails to your sometimes harsh [but I pray>few] critics is a source of great encouragement. I thank God for you. And I too, like you, wait for Jesus and watch for Him and fully expect Him any day now.

I know you must be terribly busy but I have a question concerning the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:4 and on.

It is my understanding you believe the 24 elders are the 12 apostles and the 12 patriarchs of Israel...and I was wondering WHY you think that and what you would think about an idea I have as to their identity.

I’ve been studying this lately and I’ve looked up “elders” and “thrones” and every other thing I thought might relate and I realize Jesus said to the apostles in Matthew 19:28 that they would sit on 12 thrones but He also said they would be judging the 12 tribes of Israel. So doesn’t that make for a situation where one half of the group of twenty-four elders is judging the other half?

I have searched for scriptures where God may have promised the 12 patriarchs a special reward or that they would sit on thrones, or judge people. But other than Genesis 49:16 where Jacob is blessing his 12 sons and relating their future to them and he says that “Dan shall judge his people as one of the tribes of Israel”, I haven’t found much. In fact, in the entire 49th chapter of Genesis or any where else the 12 sons of Jacob aren’t exactly always highly praised. And to recieve a reward like sitting on a throne as an elder...well I'm not sure about that.

I have come to believe we would recognize the names of the 24 elders, in fact they would be very familiar to any Christian and I wonder if many of them are not mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11, [what they always call in Sunday school the “great hall of faith” chapter].

Just for fun, the list of names comprising the 24 elders MIGHT look something like this:

1. Enoch
2. Noah
3. Abraham
4. Job
5. Joseph
6. Moses
7. Daniel
8. Elijah
9. David
10. Samuel? Nehemiah?
11. ?
12. ?
13. ?
14. ?
15. ?
16. ?
17. ?
18. ?
19. ?
20. John the Baptist
21. Peter
22. James
23. John
24. Paul

I’m of course just saying MAYBE, what do I know?, and of course it might include all 12 apostles and then 12 faithful men from the Old Testament, but surely the likes of Moses and Abraham and David and Daniel being elders sitting on thrones makes more sense than the 12 sons of Jacob. Men who walked with their God and talked to face to face with Him and were called a “friend of God”, or “a man after God’s own heart”, or “highly esteemed”.

And Hebrews 11: 35 is interesting because it tells us that many of the faithful ones in the past were tortured but refused deliverance; “that they might obtain a better resurrection”.

Well that’s an amazing statement. How can one resurrection be better than another? I mean you’re either resurrected or you’re not. Unless….its an earlier resurrection maybe?

There’s also another interesting scripture found in Matthew chapter 27:verses 51 and 52 that I think might just be connected. Those verses tell us that when Jesus died on the cross “the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.”

Boy there’s a coupla of scriptures I don’t think I’ve ever heard a preacher preach a sermon on.

Here’s what we know:

When Jesus dies some people were resurrected. And after HIS resurrection they went into Jerusalem and appeared to many people, [that’s the way people with resurrected bodies seem to show up, they don’t walk in the door---they APPEAR]. The few commentaries I read say people buried around Jerusalem were resurrected but the scripture doesn’t say that. And since the resurrected body can APPEAR rather than travel the way we have to, they could have been buried in Samaria or North America for that matter and APPEARED in Jerusalem.

So they appeared unto many but we don’t know why or what they said or did or where they went after that. Probably given that we never hear about them again they didn’t hang around long but since the Bible clearly says they were resurrected, did they die again? I believe they probably were taken to heaven after Jesus ascended and presented His blood on the altar. And I wonder if these resurrected ones wasn’t the first of the 24 elders who had died before Jesus and then the remaining ones {IF there were remaining ones}… if they didn’t receive an immediate resurrection after death unto the full number of 24 were completed?

If sometime you have the time to express your thoughts I would really appreciate it. As I mentioned I tried searching this out but I really don’t know what words to search for. Theres a chance its one of those things we just can't know for sure.

At any rate we will see with our own eyes someday who they are and what a glorious and awe inspiring day that will be.

Until then it is with much love I write, Sincerely

My reply

Thanks for your kind words.

> > you believe the 24 elders are the 12 apostles and the 12 patriarchs of Israel...and I was wondering WHY

John, an apostle, was an elder. In II John 1:1, John said, "The ELDER unto the elect lady and her children". In III John 1:1, he said, "The ELDER unto the wellbeloved Gaius". Peter, an apostle, was also an elder, one of "The ELDERS (i.e., apostles) WHICH ARE AMONG YOU".

In 1Peter 5:1, Peter said, "The ELDERS (apostles) WHICH ARE AMONG YOU I exhort, who am also an ELDER (and an apostle), and A WITNESS OF THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST (at the Crucifixion), and ALSO A PARTAKER OF THE GLORY THAT SHALL BE REVEALED" (after the Rapture, Rev. 4:4).

Since the apostles Peter and John are elders, "The ELDERS WHICH ARE AMONG YOU" sounds like all the apostles are elders.

Mt 19:28 says, "Jesus said unto them (the apostles), Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, YE ALSO SHALL SIT UPON TWELVE THRONES, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

At the first Rapture, the FIRST "TRUMP OF GOD" sounds (I Thess. 4:16) to call up to Heaven the 24 elders and the Bride saints. John is one of these. He went through heaven's door in the Rev. 4:1 Rapture.

Rev. 4:4 says, "round about the throne were four and twenty seats (thrones): and upon the seats I saw FOUR AND TWENTY ELDERS sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

One of these was John. I think the other 23 are 11 apostles and 12 patriarchs of Israel, the sons of Jacob (whom God named Israel).

Num 10:4 says, "And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET (i.e., at the first Rapture), then the PRINCES (i.e., the twelve patriarchs), WHICH ARE HEADS OF THE THOUSANDS OF ISRAEL, SHALL GATHER THEMSELVES UNTO THEE."

Ex 3:16 says, "Go, and gather the ELDERS OF ISRAEL together, and say unto them, The LORD God of YOUR FATHERS, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of JACOB (FATHER OF THE TWELVE PATRIARCHS), appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt".

Ex 3:18 says, "thou shalt come, thou and THE ELDERS OF ISRAEL, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God."

Ex 4:29 says, "Moses and Aaron went and gathered together all THE ELDERS OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL"

Ex 12:21 says, "Moses called for all THE ELDERS OF ISRAEL, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover."

Ex 17:6 says, "Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of THE ELDERS OF ISRAEL."

Ex 18:12 says, "Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all THE ELDERS OF ISRAEL, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God."

Act 21:18 And the day following PAUL (an elder) went in with us unto JAMES (an elder); and ALL THE ELDERS (i.e., apostles) WERE PRESENT.

Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and JACOB BEGAT THE TWELVE PATRIARCHS."

Act 7:9 And the PATRIARCHS, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him"

Num 10:2-4 says, "Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet (i.e., at the first Rapture), then THE PRINCES, WHICH ARE HEADS OF THE THOUSANDS OF ISRAEL, shall gather themselves unto thee."

Num 1:44 These are those that were numbered, which Moses and Aaron numbered, and the PRINCES OF ISRAEL, BEING TWELVE MEN: each one was for the house of his fathers.

Num 7:2 That the PRINCES of Israel, heads of the house of their fathers, WHO WERE THE PRINCES OF THE TRIBES, and were over them that were numbered, offered...

> > Jesus said to the apostles in Matthew 19:28 that they would sit on 12 thrones but He also said they would be judging the 12 tribes of Israel. So doesn’t that make for a situation where one half of the group of twenty-four elders is judging the other half?

All 24 elders are Israelites. The 24 are appointed as judges over all Israel. It would be unusual if they were to judge each other. Isa 1:26 says, "I WILL RESTORE THY JUDGES AS AT THE FIRST, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city."

> > But other than Genesis 49:16 where Jacob is blessing his 12 sons and relating their future to them and he says that “Dan shall judge his people as one of the tribes of Israel”, I haven’t found much. In fact, in the entire 49th chapter of Genesis or any where else the 12 sons of Jacob aren’t exactly always highly praised. And to recieve a reward like sitting on a throne as an elder...well I'm not sure about that.

To keep us from assuming that Dan, who was mixed up in idolatry, would forfeit his judgeship, we are told point blank that “Dan shall judge his people as one of the tribes of Israel”.

> > How can one resurrection be better than another? I mean you’re either resurrected or you’re not. Unless….its an earlier resurrection maybe?

Yes. There are two resurrections, and the resurrection of life, or of the just, comes first. John 5:28,29 says, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION". Luke 14:14 says, "thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the RESURRECTION OF THE JUST."

When some people came out of their graves after the Resurrection, they probably were part of those in Paradise that Jesus took to Heaven that day. Agape

My reply to Arlene's post on the Five Doves site

"The Days of Noah", (3 Nov 2005)
> > If they “hesitate”, like Lot did, or “look back” like Lot’s wife did, they will not go in this particular rapture. And I cannot figure out whether the Noah-rapture is the same day as the Lot-rapture, for it may be that the “hesitating” Lot’s, do not go in the first rapture and then have to wait for a mid-tribulation rapture, for around mid-tribulation there appears in heaven an innumerable company of people who have been raptured….perhaps these are the foolish virgins, and the hesitating Lot’s.

I'm glad that you can see that the days of Noah represent the first Rapture and that the days of Lot may represent a second Rapture.

I am a firm believer in two Raptures, One Pre-Trib and the other Pre-Wrath. That is why some think the Rapture happens before the Tribulation and others think the Rapture happens before God's Wrath hits Earth. Both are right. There are two Raptures. It would not be just for the Tribulation saints to not be raptured before the asteroids of Rev. 8:8 and 10 hit Earth. God's Wrath won't hit one believer, just unbelievers. Every believer will be in Heaven receiving his rewards when God's Wrath hits unbelievers on Earth.

Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth."

Scripture shows that there are two days of the Son of Man, i.e., two Raptures, Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath. The first Rapture is in I Thess. 4:13-18 and Rev. 4:1. The second Rapture is in I Cor. 15:51-53 and Rev. 7:14, when all the Tribulation saints come "OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION", not out of Mid-Tribulation.

In Luke 17:22, Jesus said, "The DAYS (plural) will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE OF THE DAYS (i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture, first of two Raptures) OF THE SON OF MAN, and ye shall not see it" (the first Rapture, when foolish virgins get left behind at the first trump of God).

How are the two Days of the Son of Man different?

1st Day of the Son of Man - 1st trump of God - Rapture as the days of Noah

The same day that Noah entered the Ark and the Lord shut him in, it began to rain. That day is as the Rapture of the BRIDE SAINTS. All in the Ark were married. Even the animals were in pairs.

Mat 24:37,38,42 says, "as the DAYS OF NOAH were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, MARRYING and giving in marriage, until THE DAY (i.e., the 1st day, the 1st Rapture) that Noe entered into the ark...Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

In Luke 17:22-27, Jesus said, "The DAYS (plural) will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN (1st Rapture), and ye (the foolish virgins) shall not see it. And they shall say to you (Tribulation saints), See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day....And as it was in the DAYS OF NOAH, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, THEY MARRIED WIVES, they were given in MARRIAGE, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all."

2nd Day of the Son of Man - last trump of god - Rapture as the days of Lot

The "same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven."

Luke 17:28-30 says, "Likewise also as it was IN THE DAYS OF LOT; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; BUT (i.e., here is the difference) THE SAME DAY THAT LOT WENT OUT OF SODOM IT RAINED FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FROM HEAVEN, AND DESTROYED THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

Jesus will be revealed when the Tribulation saints see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky on the Day of God's Wrath. Mt 24:30 says, "And then shall appear THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory."

Luke 21:34-36 says, "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY (of the 2nd Rapture followed by God's wrath) come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it (God's wrath, impact of the asteroid Wormwood, Rev. 8:8-11) come on all THEM (unbelievers) that dwell on the face of the whole earth (all unbelievers left behind at the 2nd Rapture). Watch YE (believers) therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, THAT YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the wise virgins will escape the entire Tribulation by being caught up in the 1st Rapture) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

> > around mid-tribulation there appears in heaven an innumerable company of people who have been raptured.

At the end of the shortened Tribulation, Rev 6:15-17 says, "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?

Next, Rev. 7 starts off with the four angels holding back the WINDS that bring the asteroid impact on unbelievers left behind at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Those Tribulation saints in Rev. 7 that are caught up in Rapture two will be taken up after the Day of God's Wrath starts at 6 PM and before God's Wrath hits Earth at noon. As in the days of Lot, the Tribulation saints will escape so as by fire.

Zeph. 2:1-5 says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired (Israel, 1948); Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID, (or raptured) IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER. For Gaza shall be forsaken (the mountain burning with fire hits the Mediterranean Sea), and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON DAY, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast" (an overflowing shower, a tsunami, will strike the sea coast).. Eze 13:13 says, "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with A STORMY WIND (a whirlwind) in my fury; and there shall be an OVERFLOWING SHOWER IN MY ANGER, and great hailstones in MY FURY to consume it."

Jer 23:19,20 says, "Behold, a WHIRLWIND of the LORD is gone forth IN FURY, even a GRIEVOUS WHIRLWIND: IT SHALL FALL GRIEVOUSLY UPON THE HEAD OF THE WICKED. The ANGER of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider (biyn, understand) it perfectly." The reason we can understand this is because we have discovered asteroids. Agape

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Updated 11-12-05