Pro and Con 1256

Posted 11-15-05

Incoming e-mail, Re: P/C 1255

> > My reply to Arlene's post on the Five Doves site
> > "The Days of Noah", (3 Nov 2005)
> > http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/nov2005/arlene113.htm

...Marylin: In one word..."BRAVO"!

In a nut shell, your expression and definition of the Two Raptures to Arlene is Five Stars, for I too am a firm believer in two Raptures, One Pre-Trib and the other Pre-Wrath. The whole of P/C 1255 is a treasure to those seeking understanding to those things historical, spiritual, and prophetically. With understanding, belief, and conviction as yours, Last Days Bible Students have a wealth of information from your Web Site. May you continue to see clearly, have visions, and put to study those things brought to your attention for future publishing.

To those looking for that "Blessed Hope," may we never cease to 'Watch' with anticipation as we study the Scriptures and signs of the times, while listening for that 'FIRST' Trumpet.

"Blessed be to the God and Father of our LORD Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us will all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ". (Ephesians 1:3 KJV)

My reply

Thanks.

It seems so clear to me. Mt 25:10-12 is enough to show me that the foolish virgins (one who has had his old sins wiped off the books when he accepted Christ) will be left behind. It says, "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom (Jesus) came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage (Marriage of the Lamb): and THE DOOR WAS SHUT. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know (eido, see) you not."

I imagine that in the blackness of the night of the Rapture, the wise virgins will stand out as stars of light, because they have extra oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (bodies).

Dan. 12:3 says, "they that be WISE shall shine as the brightness of the firmament (expanse of space); and they that turn many to righteousness AS THE STARS for ever and ever."

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath SHUT TO THE DOOR, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not WHENCE (pothen, from which place, i.e., WHERE) YOU ARE." Sputtering lamps will not be enough on that night.

At the first Rapture, Jesus reaps stars. Rev 1:16 says, "And he had in his right hand seven STARS: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword (to cut off the foolish virgins): and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength."

Luke 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will CUT HIM IN SUNDER (lit., cut him off), AND WILL APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION (the Tribulation) WITH THE UNBELIEVERS." Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Pro & Con 1255..open doorway

Marilyn, you are describing in your post the very same thing I saw on my way home Thursday afternoon from grocer shopping! I was amazed at what I was seeing and had a hard time watching it as I was on a road that is called the "Seven Hills" which are winding and quite steep in some places. I remember, like you, thinking that it was a perfect rectangular opening with white clouds surrounding it and a beautiful blue sky showing through it! A doorway!!! Than I began to think I must be imagining this...it couldn't really be a door and dismissed it from my mind. I was actually in shock when I read of your experience on the same day and around the same time!!

Marilyn, I am on the East coast ....how could this be unless it is a sign of a very soon rapture!!! Waiting and watching with you ....Agape

My reply

Wow! Thanks for letting me know what you saw. I wonder how many others were shown something similar. Ed was anxious for me to get it uploaded. He said that maybe someone else saw it, and you did see something similar. Because of the distance between east and west coast, and the rapidity of the rectangle's breakup, it sounds like there were at least two different signs of the open door. That's encouraging.

James 5:9 says, "Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door." All judgment has been given to the Son of God too. John 5:22 says, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son".

Mat 25:10 says, "And while they (the foolish virgins) went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

Luk 13:25 says, "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are". The sputtering lamps of the foolish virgins would not be easily seen, but the wise virgins with plenty of extra oil for their lamps can be easily seen in the darkness.

John 10:9 says, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."

Rev 3:8 is the best. It says, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name." Agape

APOD



http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

Besides the aurora, Manicouagan Impact Crater can be seen in northern Canada. Look on the left side of the picture. It looks like there is another smaller crater showing. The other things near it could just be clouds.

Move the Prison, Save the Church, Israeli Archaeologists Say

By Julie Stahl, CNSNews.com Jerusalem Bureau Chief, Nov 9, 05
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=\Culture\archive\200511\CUL20051109b.html

Megiddo, Israel (CNSNews.com) - Israeli archaeologists are urging the Israeli government to move a maximum security prison to preserve the remains of what is thought to be Israel's oldest church. The remains were discovered about three weeks ago on prison grounds....

The first inscription found on the first mosaic, which contains the Christian fish symbol, says that Gaianos the centurion (Roman military officer) paid for the mosaic himself and Brutius was the artisan.

The second mosaic, which is a simple flower pattern, contains two inscriptions. One of them is an exhortation to remember four women named as Frimilia, Kiriaka, Dorothea, and Karasta.

The second reads: "The God-loving Akaptos [another woman] has offered this table to THE GOD JESUS CHRIST as a memorial."

Arlene's reply, Re: Noah and Lot

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/nov2005/arlene115.htm

Thanks Marilyn - you make much sense of my dilemma - the "when" of Noah, and the "when" of Lot. One thing however, I cannot figure out, though I do understand what you say, is that the days of Lot seem to be ordinary days of buying/selling/planting/building..........and so I don't see where they have been through any "tribulation"; that is, left behind to suffer some of the tribulation prior to God's wrath, for Jesus does not describe the times of Lot as being fearful in any way; in fact,,,quite prosperous......

That is why I cannot figure out if the rapture is of all saints, "pre-tribulation", but that the Lot's would have been more taken up with worldly activities, economic activities, and would therefore be taken by surprise at the rapture (of all the saints), the rewards differing for the two groups once gathered in heaven, but their going at the same time. The Rev. 7 crowd appearing in heaven did come out of "great tribulation", not buying/selling/planting/building, so I have assumed this crowd to be those saved by the preaching of the two witnesses, etc., after the tribulation starts. But that the Noah's and Lot's were all taken at the same time, albeit their responses to the "taking" are different.

Just musing..............thanks for the help.......I could use more.........
Your sister in Christ,,,,Arlene

My reply

> > the days of Lot seem to be ordinary days of buying/selling/planting/building .......... and so I don't see where they have been through any "tribulation"; that is, left behind to suffer some of the tribulation prior to God's wrath, for Jesus does not describe the times of Lot as being fearful in any way; in fact,,,quite prosperous......

There are times like this when we need to widen our view. We need to look at all references to Lot to understand the whole picture.

Isa 28:9-13 says, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; HERE A LITTLE, AND THERE A LITTLE, THAT THEY MIGHT GO, AND FALL BACKWARD, AND BE BROKEN, AND SNARED, AND TAKEN." Only "the wise shall understand" (Dan. 12:10).

In Gen. 18:20, the LORD said that "the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and...THEIR SIN IS VERY GRIEVOUS". The LORD told Abraham that he would not destroy the city if there were ten righteous in it (Gen. 18:32). There were not ten righteous, so the city was destroyed.

Gen 19:1-24 says, "there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom...and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the MEN OF SODOM, compassed the house round, both old and young, ALL THE PEOPLE from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, WHERE ARE THE MEN which came in to thee this night? BRING THEM OUT UNTO US, THAT WE MAY KNOW THEM. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, DO NOT SO WICKEDLY. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For WE WILL DESTROY THIS PLACE, BECAUSE THE CRY OF THEM IS WAXEN GREAT BEFORE THE FACE OF THE LORD: AND THE LORD HATH SENT US TO DESTROY IT. ...when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, ARISE, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; LEST THOU BE CONSUMED IN THE INIQUITY OF THE CITY. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city....THEN THE LORD RAINED UPON SODOM AND UPON GOMORRAH BRIMSTONE AND FIRE FROM THE LORD OUT OF HEAVEN."

Luke 17:29 says, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." Why? because of "THE INIQUITY OF THE CITY."

Sodem and Gomorrah were examples of what the Tribulation saints will have to put up with.

II Peter 2:6-8 says, "turning the cities of SODEM AND GOMORRAH into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, MAKING THEM AN ENSAMPLE unto those that after should live UNGODLY; AND DELIVERED JUST LOT, VEXED WITH THE FILTHY CONVERSATION OF THE WICKED: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, VEXED HIS RIGHTEOUS SOUL FROM DAY TO DAY WITH THEIR UNLAWFUL DEEDS."

Prophecy casts its shadows before it. Do we have this type of unlawful deeds taking place today? Are there warnings now about this type of thing? Think about New Orleans and Katrina, Key West and Wilma. Both had gay parades scheduled. Both were hit by hurricanes that delayed the parades. Here are just two of many similar items a Google search brought up.
---
Hurricanes Katrina Rita Wilma
Hurricane Katrina in Brief ... The New Orleans gay pride parade went ahead.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,23889-1768688,00.html
---
Hurricane (Wilma) postpones another homosexual party
Fantasy Fest...is a huge event in the nation's gay community
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46960
---
The Raptures will also serve as warnings, one before the Tribulation, one at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation. As in Lot's day, destruction will hit Earth the same day that the second Rapture takes place. The asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 will impact Earth at noon (Zeph. 3-5). Lot was taken out of Sodom in the morning; then the city was destroyed. For the Tribulation saints, they will also escape, so as by fire, just in the nick of time. No wonder the Lord will wipe away all tears. Agape

Post on Five Doves site, Re: "Counting of the 6,000"

Eric Casagrande (8 Nov 2005)

In regards to the counting of 6,000 years, I would disagree that it began with Adam's fall. On the other hand it very clearly had to commence with his creation. The reason it began with Adam's creation and not his fall, is because when Adam bowed the knee to satan, he legally turned over his earth lease and the dominion given to him by God. We know this is true by the following scripture:

"And the devil, taking him [Jesus] up into an high mountain, ..shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment ..of time.

..And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, ..and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and ..to whomsoever I will I give it.

..If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine." - Luke 4: 5-7

The earth lease, being the 6,000 years of man's dominion until the Messianic Millennial Kingdom period of 1,000 years, had to have already been in place when Adam fell. If it was not in place at that time, then Adam gave away absolutely nothing when he bowed the knee to satan -- because without a lease, he had absolutely zero ownership rights to give away.

See ya in the air, Eric

My reply

> > In regards to the counting of 6,000 years, I would disagree that it began with Adam's fall. On the other hand it very clearly had to commence with his creation. The reason it began with Adam's creation and not his fall, is because when Adam bowed the knee to satan, he legally turned over his earth lease and the dominion given to him by God.

If the 6000 years began with Adam's creation, I think it would have begun September 18, 4044 BC (Tishri 1, 283 BJE, before the Jewish Era). The 6000 years would have ended in 1958 instead of 1998 (1998 - 40 = 1958). See my Bible Chronology for the details.

However, what if Adam didn't sin until his 40th year of probation and testing? In that case, I think the 6000th year would have been 1998. Either way, the 6000 years has passed. We seem to be living on borrowed time. Surely the Rapture is near, maybe Hanukkah.

Haggai 2:18,19 says, "Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month (Kislev 24, Eve of Hannukah), even from the day that the foundation (Jesus) of the LORD'S temple was laid (Jesus' conception), consider it. Is the seed (seed of the woman, i.e., Jesus, Gen. 3:15) yet in the barn (a feminine word)? yea (YES, i.e., he was conceived on Kislev 24), as yet the vine (Jesus), and the fig tree (Israel), and the pomegranate (the Bride, Song 4:3), and the olive tree (Israel, and Gentiles can be grafted in), hath not BROUGHT FORTH (nasa, lifted up, i.e., been raptured): from this day (the next day is Hanukkah) will I bless you."

It isn't talking about Solomon's temple (begun Iyar 2) or the second temple (begun in Iyar also). It seems to be referring to us as the temple of which Christ is the foundation. See my home page for more details. Agape

Post on Five Doves site, Re: 6000 years

Richard (8 Nov 2005)
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/nov2005/richard118.htm

I was told one word by The Holy Spirit exactly the time that the new moon sighting occurred at the end of 1999 and the beginning of Jewish calendar 5760, and that word was “chodesh”. I did not even know what this meant, I had to look it up, it means “new” in Hebrew. I take it that 6000 years did indeed end for our year 2000, and I and another contributor on 5D were sure that the rapture would be in 2000. It was not just us either, the people trying to implement peace covenants were very active around that time, my guess is that they thought it was time to confirm that covenant too.

The Psalms begin to mention the word generation beginning in Psalm 48. If this was 1948 according to the work of JR Church and Gary Stearman, the last generation or the generation that shall not pass could have began in 1948. To me, this is why we have seen predictions of the Rapture in 1988 (40 yrs later), 1998 (50 yrs later) and such.

I was continuing to pray for discernment of all of this after year 2000. The answer I got was in one sentence, “The Jews are at Kadesh Barnea”. I wonder if Joe Viel or TEFE can tell us anything more about this time at Kadesh Barnea? There must be historical books, which have been discussed on our forum quite frequently lately. I can not find any time frames for the time spent at Kadesh Barnea. The children of Israel wandered, and they gathered at Kadesh Barnea and sent spies into the land and would not advance because of unbelief. I wonder if this represents the time from 1948 to either the start of the final years of Daniel, or to the end of the final years of Daniel.

One more thing, my wife and I were driving home last night, and a sphere or ball of intensely white light flashed all around us, and for at least a second or two, all I could see is pure intense white light. I am well understanding of the fallen angels describing themselves as light, I know some un-redeemed people who talk to angels of light (demons) and so on. It is entirely possible that this was just a lightning strike, but why was it in a ball, I have seen lightning strike trees close to me, and that is NOT as this was.

I wonder if this was something being shown to me by Jesus for encouragement. I could have just as easily been before the throne of God a moment after the ball of light hit, it was indeed in a twinkling of the eye. As I and others continue to believe, we certainly can not be very far away from being gathered.

My reply

Thanks for sharing this with us.

> > I was told one word by The Holy Spirit exactly the time that the NEW MOON sighting occurred at the end of 1999 and THE BEGINNING OF JEWISH CALENDAR 5760, and that word was “CHODESH”. I did not even know what this meant, I had to look it up, it means “new” in Hebrew. (emphasis is mine)

It also means new moon and month, which starts at the New Moon. The beginning of 5760 was at the chodesh, the New Moon. Therefore, in Scripture, if a month is mentioned, it means the first day of the month, i.e., the New Moon, unless a day number is mentioned. For instance, Ex. 19:1 says, "In the third MONTH, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the SAME DAY (i.e., Sivan 1) came they into the wilderness of Sinai."

> > “THE JEWS ARE AT KADESH BARNEA”....I can not find any time frames for the time spent at Kadesh Barnea. The children of Israel wandered, and they gathered at Kadesh Barnea and sent spies into the land and would not advance because of unbelief.

You are on the right track. It was 38 years from the provocation at Kadesh Barnea to Joshua and Caleb's entry into the Promised Land, which represents our entry into our Promised Land, Heaven. De. 2:14 says, "the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, was thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them."

The Sign of the End of the Age was the Six-Day War of 1967. Thirty eight years from 1967 is 2005. I'm hoping for the Rapture at Hanukkah. See my home page for more details. Agape

His reply

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/nov2005/richard1110.htm

...MJA regarding “It was 38 years from the provocation at Kadesh Barnea to Joshua and Caleb's”

I agree with you, 1967 was unbelief at Kadesh Barnea, they gave back the mount, just read Gershon Solomon of the TMI about this one!

The second Kadesh must be now, we are just before that paragraph 9 in Hischild’s linked article. 2005 must be a pivotal year.

My reply to omitted incoming email from the Moslem

> > "Is Christ "God" !? But, "God" is greater"
> > http://www.freewebs.com/m80islami/christ.htm

> > [sura 4 : 171]
> > O people of book! do not transgress the limits of your religion and do not say about God except the truth. The Messiah Jesus the son of Mary was a messenger of God and His word that He had sent to Mary and a spirit from Him. Therefore you shall believe in God and His messengers. You shall not say Trinity. You shall refrain from this for your own good. God is the only god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son.

Please do some soul searching and see if you can answer these questions?

(1) What are "the limits of your religion"?

(2) Why can't you say "Trinity"?

(3) How is God "much too glorious to have a son"?

(4) Multi-part question from the Bible, Proverbs 30:4

(a) "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?

(b) "who hath gathered the wind in his fists?

(c) "who hath bound the waters in a garment?

(d) "who hath established all the ends of the earth?

(e) "what is his name, and

(f) "what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"

(5) Who is "me" in Psalm 2:7?
"I will declare the decree: the LORD (YHWH) hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

(6) What did the devils know?

In Matthew 8:28,29, Jesus "was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" Luke 4:41: "devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ."

Mark 3:11: "unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God."

Luke 8:27-30: "there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs. When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.) And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him."

(7) When "Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea", and "the wind ceased," why did they say "Of a truth thou art the Son of God"? (Matthew 14:25-33)

(8) Why did the centurion say, "Truly this was the Son of God"?

Matthew 27:54: "Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God."

(9) Why did the angel tell the virgin Mary that the "holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God"?

Luke 1:35: "the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

(10) Who is not condemned? Who is condemned already?

John 3:18: "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

(11) What is the "name of the only begotten Son of God"?

Love in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God

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