Pro and Con 1259

Posted 11-28-05

From Five Doves site, Re: Philip Newland - Rapture 2005

From: Bill Petrovic (23 Nov 2005)
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/nov2005/billp1123.htm

There is alot of calendar confusion this year...Abib and all.

Keep in mind that Michael Rood's calendar has November 27 evening as the start of Hanukkah. That's next Sunday.

This might actually be the month of Kislev and not Cheshvan.

We can thank God on earth Thursday then face to face on Sunday. I can only hope. YBIC Bill

My reply

I doubt that Rood is right. What dates are possible for Tishri 1?
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The months Tishri and Abib
http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p195.html
Tishre: From Aramaic shera or sherei, "to begin" ...In the twentieth century, its earliest beginning is September 6th and its latest beginning is October 5th (The Jewish Almanac, Bantam, 1980, p. 241)....

Nisan: Related to the Babylonian first month Nisannu, "to start", or perhaps to Hebrew nitzan, "blossoms." Its pentateuchal name is Aviv [or Abib], "spring"....In the twentieth century its earliest beginning is March 13th and its latest beginning is April 11th (ibid., p. 245)....

Genesis 1:14 tells us that the sun and moon [hence a solar-lunar calendar] are for "signs and for seasons (mo’ed = time(s); season(s); festival(s); assembly), and for days and years". The LXX confirms this translation. Targum Neofiti has (Gen. 1:14):

And the Lord [‘according to the decree of his Memra’][Memra is the equivalent term for Logos in the Hebrew and Aramaic; Cox ed.] said: "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the daytime from the night, and let them act as signs and (sacred) seasons [times] and so that the intercalation of moons (and) months may be consecrated by them (The Aramaic Bible, tr. Martin McNamara MSC; T&T Clark, Edinburgh, 1992).

Another Aramaic Targum, Pseudo-Jonathan, says:

God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs and as festival times, and for counting the reckoning of days, and for sanctifying the beginnings of months and the beginnings of years, the intercalations of months and the intercalations of years, the solstices, the new moon, and the cycles (of the sun) (The Aramaic Bible, tr. Michael Maher MSC, The Liturgical Press, Collegeville, MN, 1992).

It is generally accepted that these Targums pre-date the apostolic times and so their value in revealing the earlier understanding of Genesis 1:14 is rather graphically shown.
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TISHRI 1, RANGE SEPTEMBER 6 TO OCTOBER 5

If we look at the daily sky charts at YourSky
http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Yoursky starting with Sept. 6, 2005, it is not until Oct. 5 that the sign in Rev. 12:1-5 appears. That would normally be Tishri 1, 5766. On Sept. 5, the Sun is in Leo instead of Virgo. On Nov. 5, the Sun is in Libra instead of Virgo.

I think that every Tishri 1 since Adam was created is marked by the sign in Rev. 12:1,2,5. It says, "there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (Virgo) clothed with the sun (i.e., when the Sun is in Virgo), and the moon (i.e., the New Crescent Moon) under her feet, and upon (or over) her head a crown of twelve stars (Corona Borealis): And she being with child (Jesus) cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.....And she brought forth a man child (Yeshua/Jesus), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God (on Ascension Day, 40 days after the Resurrection), and to his throne".

In 2005, this sign was not there on September 5. It was showing on October 5. It will not appear on November 5. To me that means that, according to the sky, October 5 is the right date for Tishri 1. The Hebrew Calendar is close. It has Rosh Hashana, Tishri 1, on Oct. 4. That's close enough. I wouldn't have deleted Adar II last spring.

NISAN 1, RANGE: MARCH 13 TO APRIL 11

Nisan 1 can be as early as March 13, but Michael Rood set Nisan 1 on March 12, when Adar II was to begin. I don't think it matters how early Abib barley is found. They just have to have Abib barley on the Feast of Firstfruits, and Passover must be at the time of the Full Moon.

The Official Hebrew Calendar is very accurate in the long run. I wouldn't disturb that by throwing out Adar II last spring. That would throw it off by one whole month, not just a fraction of a day. How could that huge error ever be fixed? In my mind, it would only be by admitting that dropping Adar II last spring was an error.

ACCURACY OF THE OFFICIAL HEBREW CALENDAR
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Calendar Converter
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/

The average length of a month is 29.530594 days, extremely close to the mean synodic month (time from new Moon to next new Moon) of 29.530588 days. Such is the accuracy that more than 13,800 years elapse before a single day discrepancy between the calendar's average reckoning of the start of months and the mean time of the new Moon. Alignment with the solar year is better than the Julian calendar, but inferior to the Gregorian. The average length of a year is 365.2468 days compared to the actual solar tropical year (time from equinox to equinox) of 365.24219 days, so the calendar accumulates one day of error with respect to the solar year every 216 years.
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As for me, I'll go by the Hebrew Calendar. Hanukkah seems likely for the Rapture. It starts on Kislev 25 (our December 26, 2005) and lasts 8 days, because the cruse of oil for one day lasted 8 days. Why? God has reasons for doing miracles.

KISLEV 24 - DATE OF JESUS' CONCEPTION

Haggai 2:18,19 says, "Consider now from this day and UPWARD, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month (Kislev 24), even from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid, consider it. Is the seed (seed of the woman, Jesus, Gen. 3:15) yet in the barn (a feminine word)? yea (YES, Mary is now pregnant), as yet the vine (Jesus, John 15:5), and the fig tree (Israel, Joel 1:7,8), and the pomegranate (Bride of Christ, Song 4:3), and the olive tree (Israel, but the Gentiles can be grafted in, Rom 11:17), hath not brought forth (NASA, LIFTED UP, i.e., in the Pre-Trib Rapture): from this day (Kislev 24) will I bless you."

Why should we consider from Kislev 24 (Dec. 25, 2005,.Christmas and the Eve of Hanukkah) and UPWARD? because it has something to do with our "NASA", lifting up at the Pre-Trib Rapture? Why is Hanukkah called The Feast of Lights? Is it because the wise virgins with their flaming lamps will be caught up (Mt. 25:1f)?

In Rev. 3:11-13, Jesus said, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

The lamp on the top of the pillar Boaz might symbolize the Pre-Trib Rapture of the wise virgins. The lamp on the top of the pillar Jachin might symbolize the later Rapture of the foolish virgins with the Tribulation saints..Why was one pillar called Boaz, because he was a kinsman redeemer and Ruth was his bride? They were types of Christ and his Bride.

If Hanukkah is the time of the Rapture, when, during the eight days would the Rapture likely take place?

Mat 24:36-42 says, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

The coming in the clouds for the Bride of Christ is as the days of Noah.

THE TYPE: The Lord shut Noah in the Ark on Cheshvan 17 (Gen. 7:11). It began to rain that same day. The rain lasted 40 days and 40 nights.

THE FULFILLMENT OF THE TYPE: maybe the Rapture will also be at the end of the 40 days and nights. That may have been when the Ark floated free of the ground.

Cheshvan 17 was Nov. 19, 2005. Forty days after Cheshvan 17 will be Wednesday, Kislev 27 (Dec. 28, 2005). Can you think of a better tie-in for the Rapture? In John 2:19, Jesus said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will RAISE IT UP....But he spake of the temple of his body." Both temples were begun in Iyar (I Kings 6:1, II Chron. 3:2, Ezra 3:8), so the Lord wasn't talking about the literal temple in Haggai 2:18,19. He was talking about "THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY." We are the temple of the Holy Spirit of God, which is the same as the Spirit of Christ. Romans 8:9 says, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his."

Maybe, at last, we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air on Kislev 27 (December 28, 2005). That is the third day of Hanukkah, and Jesus was raised up on the third day. Agape

Arlenes reply, Re: "NOAH AND LOT"

Arlene (11 Nov 2005)
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/nov2005/arlene1111-2.htm

NOAH AND LOT
After reading others' thoughts about Noah and Lot, I have been thinking about the various viewpoints. And so, if I can just titrate out some substance to these thoughts, which may add to the mix, (or just confuse myself more......) I would add:

Noah and Lot are two very different types of characters. And we are to learn from the Old Testament, as examples. The people at the time of Noah were complacent until "the day that Noah went into the ark". The people in the days of Lot were complacent until Lot was taken out of the city. After the rapture, and the arrival of the a/c, the four horsemen begin to be sent upon the earth, meaning the tribulation will start. The reason for the rapture is so that we can "escape all these things", and if the complacency continued until mid-trib, what then have we escaped? And there was complacency until Lot was taken out.

For Noah, the Lord says (and I don't quote exactly), that it will be thus "at the coming of the Son of Man". But for Lot, He says "thus will it be when the Lord is REVEALED". Now is the "coming", the same as the "revealing"? For, some say that He comes secretly for the rapture, but is revealed at a later rapture. That is just another bone to chew on, for I don't know just how evident the rapture will actually be, especially if it is accompanied by a great earthquake, which earthquake might happen at the raising of the dead in Christ.

In Luke, after His discussion about Lot, He gives a parable about the good man of the house who didn't know the watch the thief was coming and so "his house was broken up". Lot's family was separated, and all was confusion for him, and in fact he was "forcefully" taken by angels out of the city, dividing his family both prior to his leaving, and afterward, when his confused wife became, well, you know.............

Now, Noah had planned according to the directions of God, the building of the ark, and knew the times and seasons of the coming of the flood. He prepared his family, who accompanied him without hesitations or reservations, because Noah had brought the Word of the Lord to them, and they had become believers.

To the big Kingdom-writers out there, all in the church will go at the rapture, both those who are ready, and those who are not (the Lot's). We are told that "the Lord Himself" will descend from heaven and take us to Himself, at the sound of a trumpet. But He also says elsewhere that He "will send my ANGELS", again with a trumpet, to gather His elect. Here, we can see that He Himself gathers the Noah's who are ready, but it may be that He sends His angels to gather the Lot's, who are not ready, and have to be "forcibly" removed at the rapture. The Kingdom guys say that these Lot's / unwise virgins, will be "shut out", but that does not mean to suffer tribulation on earth, but denied certain privileges in heaven, and in the coming Kingdom of our Lord, for Paul says that we will "ALL' appear at the judgment seat of Christ, and that our works will be tried in the fire, and that the ones with only wood, hay and stubble, are still saved, but, "so as by fire" (the judging of their Lot-like lifestyles, having no precious metals or stones). This pre-supposes that all are present at this judgment at the same time, not separated by a lag in time. The coming Kingdom, will have positions of authority, and positions in nearness to the Lord, and also more lowly positions, and He will reward these positions in His hierarchy, as He sees fit, starting with the twelve apostles to whom He promised the very highest positions. Lot was in a high position in the city of Sodom, but ended up in a very lowly position in the mountains, and thereafter, after being forced out of the city. Likewise, the Lot's who are raptured, will be forced out of their worldly high positions, and be of no account in the Lord's Kingdom. Jesus said, those who are exalted (on earth), will be debased (in the Kingdom).

One thing that I think we can be certain of, is that our Lord is merciful. He saved Lot, because of the intervention of Abraham on his nephew's behalf. We pray so often for those we love, that they should not enter any tribulation, and this precedent of Abraham / Lot, shows us that our Lord hears our prayers, and will "save" our beloved ones, even if He has to send angels to drag them out of their worldly lives. But, like Lot, they may lose a spouse or in-laws in that taking-away. (by angels)

If there be a time-period separation of these two raptures or two types of raptures (the Lord Himself taking unto Himself, and His sending of angles to take to safety), I really cannot figure out, although Marilyn Agee presents some pretty good arguments that there may be a time period between the two raptures. The Kingdom guys say all will be taken at the same time, but some will lose their crowns and rewards. One of these crowns is the crown of righteousness, which those who "love His appearing", will receive. Well, right there, if those who love His appearing, receive one of these crowns (and I sure would love to get one of those, to add to the three gold crowns my dentist has presented to me.....)--- (I did try to be humble at these sessions) , that pre-supposes that there will be those who do not get one of these crowns, in other words at the judgment seat of Christ-- no rapture-love, no crown.

Somehow, it just seems to me that the Noah's and the Lot's are going to be taken at the same time, but under differing circumstances (some called by the Lord Himself, as typed by Abraham's PERSONAL visit by the Lord, and his close communion with the Lord, the day prior to the burning of the cities) and the others yanked out by angels), Maybe not. Or, maybe the two raptures are just one day apart, as seen by Abraham's personal visit, and the next day of Lot's eviction. But, I want the Lot's in my family to be with the Lord, and with me. Gee,,,,how much prayer time have I taken up, with trying to convince Jesus that he should take my cat, Switch----here, one of my petitions is that Noah got to take his animals in the ark with him, so hey what about Switch?; secondly, He sent me this cat for comfort in some hard times over the last couple years, so how could this beautiful and comforting creature not be important to Him?(He knows every fallen sparrow) ; thirdly, how could He leave behind in tribulation, my cat- who would feed her? Fourthly, nothing is impossible for our Lord, and I don't think He will be too busy raising 2000 years' worth of those who sleep in Christ, plus countless living watchers, that He could not handle a few cats and dogs, and birds, for whom the nervous-Nellies down here have repeated bothered Him about? Your sister in Christ...............Arlene

My reply

> > if the complacency continued until mid-trib, what then have we escaped?

The breaking of the first three seals, which includes war and famine. See Rev. 6.

> > Lot, He says "thus will it be when the Lord is REVEALED". Now is the "coming", the same as the "revealing"? For, some say that He comes secretly for the rapture, but is revealed at a later rapture. That is just another bone to chew on, for I don't know just how evident the rapture will actually be,

FIRST RAPTURE, THE LORD IS NOT SEEN, THE SAINTS ARE SEEN

The first Rapture takes place before the first seal is broken. Psa. 40:1-4 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up (i.e., at the Rapture) also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (as Jeremiah was brought up out of the miry pit), and set my feet upon a rock (i.e., Heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung by the saints in Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, AND FEAR, AND SHALL TRUST IN THE LORD." This is the type of the Pre-Trib Rapture of I Thess. 4:13-18.

SECOND RAPTURE, THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IS SEEN IN THE SKY

The second Rapture is the one in I Cor. 15:51-53. It takes place between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals. Mt 24:30 says, "THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

This is just the sign of His coming. The Second Advent is still 7 months future. The Day of God's Wrath is in Eze. 38:18-20. There are many dead bodies. Then Eze. 39:12,13 says, "SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD."

The day when Jesus will be glorified will be at the Second Advent. Mt 25:31 says, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory."

After the 6th seal is broken, Rev 6:14-17 says, "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"

SECOND ADVENT, EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM

Rev 1:7 says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, AND THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

> > all in the church will go at the rapture, both those who are ready, and those who are not (the Lot's). We are told that "the Lord Himself" will descend from heaven and take us to Himself, at the sound of a trumpet. But He also says elsewhere that He "will send my ANGELS", again with a trumpet, to gather His elect. Here, we can see that He Himself gathers the Noah's who are ready, but it may be that He sends His angels to gather the Lot's, who are not ready, and have to be "forcibly" removed at the rapture. The Kingdom guys say that these Lot's / unwise virgins, will be "shut out", but that does not mean to suffer tribulation on earth, but denied certain privileges in heaven, and in the coming Kingdom of our Lord, for Paul says that we will "ALL' appear at the judgment seat of Christ, and that our works will be tried in the fire, and that the ones with only wood, hay and stubble, are still saved, but, "so as by fire" (the judging of their Lot-like lifestyles, having no precious metals or stones). This pre-supposes that all are present at this judgment at the same time, not separated by a lag in time.... > > Somehow, it just seems to me that the Noah's and the Lot's are going to be taken at the same time, but under differing circumstances

The Judgment Seat of Christ follows the the Second Rapture. That great Day of the Lord is Christ's Coronation Day. It is also the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Marriage of the Lamb.

Mt 24:31 says, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." Notice that these saints are already in Heaven. They were caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Compare that with Mark 13:27. It says, "gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN." The ones gathered from Heaven were taken up previously at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

On the Day of the Lord, ALLsaints are gathered to the General Assembly in Heaven. They are gathered from BOTH Heaven and Earth. Heb. 12:23,24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant". Psa 89:7 says, "God is greatly to be feared in the ASSEMBLY OF THE SAINTS, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him."

Joel 2:15-17 says, "Blow the trumpet (it is the Feast of Trumpets) in Zion (the heavenly one), sanctify a fast (the upcoming Day of Atonement), CALL A SOLEMN ASSEMBLY. Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom (Christ) go forth of his chamber, and the bride (Bride of Christ) out of her closet. Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them".

On the Day of the Lord, all saints are at the General Assembly in Heaven. Only unbelievers are left on Earth. The saints in Heaven receive their rewards for their belief as the unbelievers on Earth receive their just rewards for their unbelief.

Rev. 11:17,18 says of Jesus, "thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned (it's Coronation Day). .And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD UNTO THY SERVANTS THE PROPHETS, AND TO THE SAINTS, AND THEM THAT FEAR THY NAME, SMALL AND GREAT; AND SHOULDEST DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."

> > maybe the two raptures are just one day apart, as seen by Abraham's personal visit, and the next day of Lot's eviction.

Abraham wasn't raptured. Enoch was, and Enoch was caught up before Lot was led out of Sodom by the two angels. Agape

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