Pro and Con 1265

Posted 12-15-05

'Palestinians' fire rocket at northern Israel By Ryan Jones

12-12-05...Meanwhile, the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades Sunday joined Hamas and Islamic Jihad in refusing to extend the current so-called terrorist “ceasefire.”

All three groups are expected to renew full-scale hostilities against Israeli Jews from the end of December....

Abbas-linked group tries to kill Sharon
December 13, 2005 - Al Aqsa fires rocket at PM's ranch in hopes of taking out Israeli leader

Credit: NASA/JPL
Lightning on Saturn

Many things about Saturn have changed in the 24 years since the two Voyager Spacecraft flew by. Saturn's magnetosphere has grown larger by more than a million miles. The dark spokes on Saturn's B ring have disappeared. The equatorial thunderstorm that raged continuously while both Voyagers passed has broken up and moved toward the poles....

Saturn's emblem suggests that it is Heaven

It has both an "h" for heaven and a cross, showing us how to get there.


Officials puzzled by Okla. gas geysers

ZP - 12-11-05 - KINGFISHER, Okla. - An outbreak of geysers spewing mud and gas into the air in rural Kingfisher County is puzzling state and local officials....

My reply to TEFE on Five Doves site, Re: no Biblical Civil Calendar

Thanks for your kind words. I have a feeling that the civil calendar has been used from the Sabbath when God rested on Tishri 1, but will keep an open mind as I search for clues. I only want to understand the truth of the matter, let the chips fall as they may. (emphasis throughout is mine)

> > The calendar references in the TALMUD (which are plentiful), ALWAYS REFER TO JUST ONE CALENDAR, i.e. called "the religious". There are NO "CIVIL CALENDAR" REFERENCES in there. Not only is this concept true for the Talmud, it is TRUE ALSO OF THE BIBLE. The Bible employs only ONE calendar. The singular calendar of the Bible often is referred to as "the religious/sacred/reginal/ceremonial calendar.

The first calendar started soon after Gen. 1:14. It says, "God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for SIGNS, and for SEASONS, and for DAYS, AND YEARS." Since I think the day God rested was Tishri 1, I also think that the first calendar started on that Tishri 1. That was the day this kosmos started to operate as it does now. It was the first whole day that Adam could keep track of.

In Ex. 12:2, the Lord said, "This month (Nisan) shall be (i.e., in the future) unto you the beginning (rosh) of months (chodesh): it shall be the FIRST month of the year to you." Why would they have been told this if there was no change? The Flood accounts show that man had a calendar before the Exodus. The words "it shall be" in Ex. 12:2 seem to indicate that from that day on, Nisan would be the beginning of months instead of some other month. Since Noah's Flood preceded the Exodus, the original calendar was used. The original calendar counted days and years. Otherwise, they wouldn't have known how old the patriarchs were.

The Ancient Egyptian Calendar began in the fall. I think the change for the Israelites was from a fall first month to a spring first month ( The days of the week seem to have been kept, with no breaks, from that first Sabbath when God rested.

Jesus comes twice, once as the former rain on Tishri 1, and again as the latter rain on Nisan 1. Hosea 6:3 says, "Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN UNTO THE EARTH." Joel 2:23 says, "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain IN THE FIRST MONTH." Tishri and Nisan are both first months. De. 11:14 says, "I will give you the rain of your land IN HIS DUE SEASON, THE FIRST RAIN (i.e., the First Advent was on TISHRI 1, the FIRST MONTH OF THE CIVIL YEAR) AND THE LATTER RAIN" ( i.e., the Second Advent will be on NISAN 1, the first month of the sacred year). Jesus will come on the same day that all the other Israelite kings officially began their rule, the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year.

Eze 29:17 sets the day, "in the first month, in the first day of the month (i.e., Nisan 1, see Eze. 45:18,21), the word of the LORD came unto me, saying..." Then Eze 29:21 says, "In that day (i.e., Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel (Jesus) to bud forth (Second Advent), and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Logos, the Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD." The First Advent was on Tishri 1. The Second Advent will be on Nisan 1. This suggests that both Tishri and Nisan are first months.

The positions of the Sun and Moon were to be used "FOR SIGNS, AND FOR SEASONS, AND FOR DAYS, AND YEARS" (Gen. 1:14). How would that apply?

This is my opinion. Rev. 12:1,2,5 gives us a sign. It says, "there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (Virgo) clothed with the sun (i.e., the Sun was in or near Virgo), and the moon (i.e., the New Crescent Moon) under her feet, and upon (or over) her head a crown of twelve stars (Corona Borealis): And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered....And she brought forth a man child (Jesus, the seed of the woman, Gen. 3:15), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne" (i.e., to take the saints in Paradise to Heaven on Resurrection Day, and to ascend again 40 days later.

Here is the sign on Tishri 1, 3757 (Sept. 4, 5 BC) when Jesus was born. The sign of Rev. 12 was perfect that day. Virgo was clothed with the Sun, and the New Crescent Moon was at her feet.

Below is the sky on Tishri 1, 283 BJE (before Jewish Era), Sept. 18, 4044 BC. The sign of Rev. 12 is there in the sky, and it will repeat every true Tishri 1 from that day forward. The repeating sign of Virgo clothed with the Sun and with the New Crescent Moon under her feet determines the beginning of each year. I think it is God's celestial clock that ticks off the years. Virgo's feet are near the "t" in Caput.

I looked up the sky on Nisan 1 in 4044 BC. Both the Sun and the Moon were in Taurus. The sign of Rev. 12 was not there, and it won't be there on any Nisan 1 we might look up.

I know that Jesus had to be born on Tishri 1, when the sign of Rev. 12 was in the sky. Since some insist that Jesus was born on Tabernacles, I looked up the sky on Tabernacles in BC 5.. The sign was not there on the Feast of Tabernacles. The Moon is not under Virgo's feet.

The Sun is said to be in:

(1) Virgo from Aug. 23 to Sept 22
(2) Libra from Sept 23 to Oct 23
(3) Scorpio from Oct. 24 to Nov 21
(4) Sagittarius from Nov 22 to Dec 21
(5) Capricorn from Dec. 22 to Jan. 19
(6) Aquarius from Jan 20 to Feb 18
(7) Pisces from Feb. 19 to Mar 20
(8) Aries from March 21 to April 19
(9) Taurus from April 20 to May 20
(10) Gemini from May 21 to June 21
(11) Cancer from June 22 to July 22
(12) Leo from July 23 to Aug 22

According to the position of the Sun, the sign of Rev. 12 can happen in Tishri, but not in Nisan, when the Sun is in Aries.

The first Crescent New Moon is between 15 and 48 hours after the conjunction, which is the Dark Moon. A minimum of 24 hours seems safe. Many just add two days. The mathematical Hebrew Calendar used today is said to have started Oct. 7, 3761 BC. Molads, or New Moons, are spaced 29 days, 12 hours, and 793 parts apart. Actual conjunctions vary from the molads by up to 7 hours in each direction, because the moon's velocity is not uniform.

Just to get a feel for how close the modern Hebrew Calendar comes to the sign on Tishri 1, I looked up the dates for Tishri 1 from 2000 to 2008, and looked for the sign on that day or soon afterward. The results look very good.

2000, Tishri 1 is Sept 29 - According to the sign, Sept. 30 looked better
2001, Tishri 1 is Sept 18 - According to the sign, Sept. 19 was ok
2002, Tishri 1 is Sept. 8 - According to the sign, Sept 7 looked better
2003, Tishri 1 is Sept 27 - The sign was showing
2004, Tishri 1 is Sept. 16 - The sign was showing
2005, Tishri 1 is Oct . 4 - According to the sign, Oct. 5 looked better
2006, Tishri 1 is Sept. 23 - According to the sign, both Sept. 23 and 24 looked good
2007, Tishri 1 is Sept. 13 - The sign was showing
2008, Tishri 1 is Sept. 30 - A tiny sliver could be seen on Oct. 1

The Jewish Encyclopedia says, "IN THE EARLIEST TIMES THE HEBREW YEAR BEGAN IN AUTUMN with the opening of the economic year. There followed in regular succession the seasons of seed-sowing, growth and ripening of the corn under the influence of the former and the latter rains, harvest and ingathering of the fruits. In harmony with this was the order of the great agricultural festivals, according to the oldest legislation, namely, the feast of unleavened bread at the beginning of the barley harvest, in the month of Abib; the feast of harvest, seven weeks later; and the feast of ingathering AT THE GOING OUT OR TURN OF THE YEAR...see Ex. xxiii. 14-17; xxxiv. 18, 22-23; Deut. xvi. 1-16)." (,%20Tishri%201)

The commentary by Klotowitz says, "IT APPEARS THAT THE ANCIENTS REFERRED TO TISHREI [SEPTEMBER/OCTOBER] AS THE FIRST MONTH, FOR IN IT CREATION WAS COMPLETED." (Translation and commentary by Klotowitz R.M., Overviews by Scherman, R.N., Bereishis, Genesis: A new translation with a commentary anthologised from Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic sources, vol.1 (a); Art Scroll Tanach Series, Mesorah Publications Ltd., 1977, p. 249.).

The Sefas Emes, Reb Yehudah Aryeh Leib of Ger taught:..."We have an argument in [the Babylonian Talmud tractate] Rosh Hashanah 10b-11a as to whether the world was created in NISAN OR TISHRI. Rabbi Eliezer says that in Tishri the world was created... On Rosh Hashanah the slavery of our ancestors in Egypt ceased [six months before the redemption]; in Nisan they were redeemed and in Nisan they will be redeemed in the time to come. Rabbi Joshua says that in Nisan the world was created...."

The Sefas Emes partially resolves this conundrum by citing A PASSAGE FROM THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD THAT EXPLAINS THAT ROSH HASHANAH IS ACTUALLY THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. GOD CREATED THE WORLD DURING THE MONTH OF TISHRI, so Rosh Hashanah is observed during that month. Nisan is the month that the Israelites were redeemed from slavery in Egypt, and it is during that month that Pesach, the commemoration of the exodus, is observed. That is why the text says, "this month shall be for you the head of the months..." - this month was the beginning of Israel's existence as a free people. While Rosh Hashanah in Tishri marks a universal new year, each month of Nisan marks for the Israelites the beginning of a new year of their freedom and autonomy - allowing them to be free to observe the mitzvot and worship their God...."

"Identifying the actual new year in the Hebrew calendar has always been a little confusing, even to this day. The Mishnah (Rosh Hashanah 1:1) actually identifies four new years: the first of NISAN (the month of Pesach), which is identified as THE NEW YEAR FOR KINGS AND FESTIVALS: the first of Elul (the month preceding Rosh Hashanah), which is the new year for the tithing of animals; the first of TISHRI (Rosh Hashanah), which IS THE NEW YEAR OF YEARS (THE CALENDAR YEAR); and the 15th of the month of Shevat (Tu B'Shvat) which is the new year for trees." (

Below are some more things my search turned up. I still think the Sabbath when God rested was Tishri 1.
--- A Look into Postponements (

THE CONCLUSION IS ONLY THAT ADAM WAS CREATED ON NEW YEAR'S DAY, THE FIRST OF TISHRI, this being the sixth day from the twenty-fifth of Elul." (Midrash Rabbah - Leviticus 29:1)

The TALMUD likewise claims that Adam was created on Ethanim 1 (aka, "Tishri 1"):

"HE WAS CREATED ON NEW YEAR'S DAY, THE FIRST OF TISHRI, and all that is related of him occurred on that very day. In the first hour his dust was assembled; in the second he was rough-hewn; in the third his limbs were articulated; in the fourth the soul was breathed into him; in the fifth he stood erect; in the sixth he gave names to all creatures; in the seventh Eve was brought to him; in the eighth they begot Cain and Abel; in the ninth they were forbidden to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; in the tenth they sinned; in the eleventh sentence was passed; and in the twelfth they were driven out of Eden (Sanh. 38b; cf. also Lev. R. 29:1)." (Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 2, article: Adam, pp.236,237).

Rosh Hashanah is not mentioned in the Torah. In fact in the entire Hebrew Scriptures, the term "Rosh Hashanah" only appears once, in the book of EZEKIEL,[3] (Eze. 40:1) and there, it is only referring to the concept of the beginning of the year, and not to any holy day in particular.

Now in the Torah, there is mention of a holy day that takes place on the first day of this seventh month - what we today call Rosh Hashanah - but it is a rather obscure holy day. It is designated a day of "complete rest, a sacred occasion commemorated with loud blasts",[4] "a day when the horn is sounded."[5] In fact, at the end of the first century Before the Common Era, the Jewish philosopher, Philo Judaeus of Alexandria, wrote briefly about it, calling it the "Feast of Trumpets,"[6] ...

Yet strangely enough, our rabbinic texts provide us with only a hint of what must have been a prolonged and lively debate. In Tractate Rosh Hashanah of the Babylonian TALMUD, a disagreement is recorded between two first century rabbis; Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Joshua. The two rabbis were arguing about when the world was created. Rabbi Eliezer claimed that it was created in the month of Tishri...while Rabbi Joshua claimed it was created in the month of Nisan - the month in which Passover falls.[7] Knowing that one of the major motifs of Rosh Hashanah is that it is the "Anniversary of Creation," it is safe to assume that WHAT RABBIS ELIEZER AND JOSHUA WERE ARGUING ABOUT WAS NOTHING SHORT OF THE SETTING OF THE DATE OF THE JEWISH NEW YEAR. Eliezer was in favor of changing the date, while Joshua wished to maintain it as stated in the Torah.
A History of Rosh Hashanah (

"In addition, some rabbis viewed this day as the anniversary of the creation of humanity (Yom Harat Olam) and of other significant events in biblical history (Rosh Hashanah 10b-11a)....

How can Nisan, the month in which Pesach is observed, be the first month, when Rosh Hashanah, the "head" of the year, is held in Tishri, six months later?

The Sefas Emes partially resolves this conundrum by citing a passage from the Babylonian Talmud that explains that Rosh Hashanah is actually the anniversary of the creation of the world. GOD CREATED THE WORLD DURING THE MONTH OF TISHRI, so Rosh Hashanah is observed during that month.
Dating Creation (

Jewish scholars subscribing to similar interpretations give two dates for Creation according to the TALMUD. They state that the first day of Creation week was either Elul 25, AM 1 or Adar 25, AM 1, almost twelve or six months, respectively, after the modern epoch of the Hebrew calendar. Most prefer Elul 25 whereas a few prefer Adar 25. These place the sixth day of Creation week, when Adam was created, on the first day of the following month, either Tishri or Nisan, the first month of either the civil or biblical year, respectively.
When Does the Year Begin (

Months are numbered from Nisan (reflecting the injunction in Exodus "This month shall be to you the beginning of months". However, the New Year is the first of Tishri, when the year number increases by 1 and the formal new year festival Rosh Hashana is celebrated. There may be an echo here of A CONTROVERSY IN THE TALMUD about whether the world was created in Tishri or Nisan; IT WAS DECIDED THAT THE ANSWER IS TISHRI.
Rosh Hashanah (
Creation days and Orthodox Jewish tradition, by Paul James-Griffiths,

The commentary says, "IT APPEARS THAT THE ANCIENTS REFERRED TO TISHREI [SEPTEMBE/OCTOBER] AS THE FIRST MONTH, FOR IN IT CREATION WAS COMPLETED6...6. Translation and commentary by Klotowitz R.M., Overviews by Scherman, R.N., Bereishis, Genesis: A new translation with a commentary anthologised from Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic sources, vol.1 (a); Art Scroll Tanach Series, Mesorah Publications Ltd., 1977, p. 249.
> > There was only one calendar in those days (from ADAM to the present) and it began in Spring, Abib; NOT Tishri

Gen. 2:8,9 says, "the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Apple, pear, cherry, fig, persimmon, plum and olive trees are harvested in the fall. This food would be ready to feed Adam and Eve if they were created in the fall. Seedtime would begin soon.

It seems that the ancients did refer to Tishri as the first month, because in it creation was completed.

> > The day that the Lord came and told them to leave the ark was likely 10 days AFTER the ark came to rest after having floated for a year. That day was likely SHAVUOT (Pentecost) (IN SPRINGTIME). Now the Pharisees have a tendency to put Shavuot on Sivan 6-7, but the Sadducees put it on Sivan 15 (Reference the book of Jubilees.).

I think Noah was shut into the Ark on Cheshvan 17 and came out of the Ark on Cheshvan 27. When are the rainy months? Tishri 1 to the following Nisan 1. Chances are good that it wasn't in the dry season, from the end of Nisan to Tishri.

> > As to the idea of two raptures, we are at difference here also. In short let me try to sum it this way:

> > #1. The term "Blessed Hope" (which I believe refers to the rapture) is singular, not plural
It can apply to the Pre-Trib Rapture, Luke 21:36 will apply to the wise virgins. They will be accounted worthy to escape. It says, " Watch ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, THAT YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of man."

Luke 12:46 will apply to the foolish virgins who are left behind. It says of the unwise servant, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will CUT HIM IN SUNDER (lit., cut him off), AND WILL APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS."

How could the unwise servant's portion be with the UNBELIEVERS unless his portion was the shortened Tribulation? No wonder Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." The unbelievers and the pretenders will be together during the shortened Tribulation. Don't you think that they will be joined by the unwise believers?

Those raptured before the Tribulation are seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. The Tribulation saints are not seen in Heaven until Rev. 7:9,14. Both groups are out of all nations on Earth.

> > The RAPTURE IS JUDGMENT (and judgment begins in the house of God first: 1 Peter 4:17 "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?".), the ones "spewed out" of Yeshua's mouth, like unsavory salt, will literally appear as pillars of salt as Lot's wife literally appeared

I think the days of Noah apply to the first Rapture, and the days of Lot apply to the second Rapture. They are not alike. Rain fell in Noah's day. Fire and brimstone fell the very day Lot left Sodom. The first Rapture is of the Bride of Christ. At the second Rapture, only the 144,000 Israelites will join the Bride group (Rev. 14:4,5).

> > #4. The Exodus, once the waters were parted, if one was not with God, there was no "second parting". It was true for Moses as the "Red Sea" (wherever that may have been, as well as when Joshua crossed the Jordan, the waters of the Jordan "piled up", if one did not cross then there was no "second parting")

The Israelites crossed the Red sea dry shod. If you think that was a type of the first Rapture, don't you think that when Joshua, Caleb, and the children crossed the Jordan dry shod, it was like the second Rapture?

> > The "second chance" in the tribulation period is not rapture, but rather beheading (martyrdom) to get to heaven.

I think it is both. Zeph. 2:1-5 says, "Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired (Israel); Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast".

The asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea at noon. The other piece called a star (aster) will destroy Babylon. I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place in the preceding night or morning. When God's Wrath hits Earth, ALL SAINTS, SMALL AND GREAT, will be in Heaven receiving their rewards.

Rev. 11:18 says, " And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD UNTO THY SERVANTS THE PROPHETS, AND TO THE SAINTS, AND THEM THAT FEAR THY NAME, SMALL AND GREAT; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Only unbelievers will be on Earth when the asteroids hit. Surely you don't think the Tribulation saints would be on Earth at that time. Believers are not appointed to the wrath of God.

1Thess 5:9 says, "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,." Shalom and agape

   Pro and Con 1266   Or Return   Home

Contact me for more information at:

Send me e-mail now

8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (951) 653-4110

© 1996-2005, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 12-15-05