Pro and Con 1266

Posted 12-16-05

My response to "When is Jesus' "appearing"?" on Five Doves site

To: TJ (

> > 2nd Timothy 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick (Living) and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom
> > 2nd Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing

> > Paul even though dead receives his reward on the day of the appearing of the righteous judge Jesus Christ. They that love his appearing are the living persons at the time of his return who witness it (The 2nd Coming). So New Testament Paul receives his reward with the living at the time of Jesus appearing.

His appearing is the day Jesus is given his kingdom, but in my opinion, it is not the day of the Second Advent. Although Jesus will be seen by every eye at the SECOND COMING ON NISAN 1, I think he will be seen by many seven months SEVEN MONTHS BEFORE THAT, ON TISHRI 1, when the Sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the sky.

The Sign of the Son of Man will be similar to what Ezekiel saw. Eze. 1:26-28 says, "above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads (farther out in space than the cherubim, the four terrestrial planets) was the likeness (symbolic language) of A THRONE, as the appearance of a SAPPHIRE stone (symbol of Saturn, Heaven): and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Jesus) above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber (Saturn has amber on it), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had BRIGHTNESS ROUND ABOUT (seven rings of ice crystals). As the appearance of the bow (formed by sunlight on ice crystals) that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness (i.e., the 7 rings) round about."

Ex. 24:10 also connects the sapphire with the heavenly body--Saturn. It says, "they saw the God of Israel: and there was UNDER HIS FEET as it were (symbolic language) a paved work of a SAPPHIRE stone (symbol of Saturn), and as it were the body of heaven (heavenly body, i.e., Saturn) in his clearness."

The Tishri 1 when the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky will be a day like no other. ever. It will be the Feast of Trumpets, the great and terrible Day of the Lord and the Day of God's Wrath. It will be Coronation Day, when Jesus receives his kingdom, the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the Marriage of the Lamb, and the Judgment Seat of Christ. It happens after the 6th seal is broken.

Rev. 6:12-17 says, "I beheld when he had opened the SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the SUN BECAME BLACK as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars (pieces of the binary asteroid that breaks apart) of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And THE HEAVEN DEPARTED AS A SCROLL when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"

In Mt. 24:29-31, we find out that when they see Jesus on the throne in the sky, it is called "THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN", "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the SUN BE DARKENED, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet (the 'last trump' of God, 1 Cor. 15:51,52), and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

The saints that were taken to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture are gathered to the general assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23). The Tribulation saints are gathered from Earth. Mark 13:27 says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Rapture of the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (the gathering again of the Pre-Trib saints).

There are seven months from this Tishri 1, Day of God's Wrath, to Nisan 1, day of the Second Advent, because it is a Hebrew Leap Year, 5771. Eze. 39:12,13 says, "SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (THE SECOND ADVENT), saith the Lord GOD."

> > Daniel 12:1 But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Daniel and Paul together receive the reward at the 2nd coming.

I think the saints will all receive their rewards in Heaven on Tishri 1, when the unbelievers on Earth receive their just rewards for their unbelief. Rev. 11:18 says, "the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth."

Eze. 29:17 sets the day of the Second Advent on Nisan 1. It says, "And it came to pass in the seven and twentieth year, in the first month, in the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me...". Then verse 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1, Eze. 45:18,21) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Logos, the Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

THE FIRST ESCAPE, THE FIRST TRUMP OF GOD, THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE (I Thess. 4:16; Rev. 4:1) Luke 21:34-36 (KJV) says of the 1st Rapture, "take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE (ekpheugo¯, flee out, i.e., in the Pre-Trib Rapture) all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."


Dan. 12:1 (YLT) says of the 2nd Rapture, "at that time (i.e., when the False Prophet comes to his end) stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people ESCAPE (in the Pre-Wrath Rapture), every one who is found written in the book."

> > Finally in a wrap up. Paul who is a new testament believer and part of the Church says he will receive his crown at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

> > This doesnt go with the pretribulation rapture view. The appearing is the 2nd coming. Paul receives his reward at the 2nd coming not at the beggining of the tribulation. Furthermore this prooves the church is present at the appearing of Christ. Because in the pretrib rapture view the new testament believer whether dead or living are raptured before the tribulation begins. What do you think???

I think that the wise-virgin Bride of Christ will be Raptured as the Tribulation begins, and that the foolish-virgin saints and the 144,000 Bride saints will be rapured at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation. All the saints, small and great, will receive their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ on the Day of God's Wrath.

I think the appearing is the Sign of the Son of Man, seen in the sky the day of the second Rapture. The Second Coming is 7 months future.

Those who are caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture are the people "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" in Rev. 5:9. Those caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture are "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" in Rev. 7:9. Verses 14 and 15 say, "These are they which came OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God."

We must be wearing white garments. Jesus warned the Laodiceans to "buy of me gold tried in the fire (i.e., deity, Holy Spirit, Spirit of Christ), that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear" (Rev. 3:18).

Rom 8:9 says, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

I think all saints will receive their rewards at the same time, on Tishri 1, at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven.

By the end of the shortened Great Tribulation, these have confessed their sins committed after they accepted Christ to bring them all under the blood of Christ (I John 1:9). Jesus called it washing their feet when talking to Peter. In John 13:10, "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to WASH HIS FEET, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean". Agape

MP Calls For UK Ban On Aspartame

By Felicity Lawrence, 12-16-5

My comments

New Mexico is trying to ban aspartame too.

I am for banning NutraSweet (aspartame). It is poison to me. After I started drinking diet Cokes, my feet got progressively more numb. My toes were as if glued together. The numbness went up my right leg half way to the knee. My doctor and I both blamed it on my Diabetes. It kills the nerve ends. There should have been no improvement, only worsening until the feet have to be amputated. My feet felt like they were made of wood.

However, I stopped using aspartame and now I'm getting the feeling and ease of movement back in my feet. My toes have come unglued. My leg is still numb, but less so. I can move my toes normally again. The sad thing is that with my feet numb, I didn't realize that a couple of my shoes hurt my right foot. Now, I'm finding out that along with the return of feeling, there is also a feeling of pain. I sure have a sore foot and never dreamed that my shoes hurt that foot. Now I can fix that problem.

Incoming email, Re: will the world see us go up in the rapture?

Just like the movie "Left Behind" portrays, I have always thought believers would vanish in an instant. And hearing Oral Roberts vision given over a year ago and reading Choo Thomas' book, "Heaven Is So Real", I'm not so sure anymore.

Elijah was visibly taken up. Jesus was visibly taken up. Even though in a twinkling of an eye we are changed, who is to say that means we "vanish"? Can you imagine how horrible it will be for professing christians who have made the world their master to see other believers go up to Jesus? That just breaks my heart thinking about it. The unbelievers still may not know what is going on. Sort of like when God the Father spoke in response to Jesus saying, "Glorify Thy Name". Some thought it was thunder while some heard a voice spoke.

What do you think will happen at the moment of the rapture? Will we vanish or be visibly taken up? Have you heard Oral Roberts vision entitled, "The Wake Up Call"?? You can read it hear if you like. Oral doesn't interpret what he saw but God showed him over a year ago that His church is not ready for His coming and He wants us to be ready!!! Here is link

Thank you for your assistance

My reply

> > will the world see us go up in the rapture?


> > Will we vanish or be visibly taken up?

I think Psalm 40:1-3 shows that many people will see the Rapture take place, fear and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. It says, "I waited patiently (as in Rev. 3:10) for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. HE BROUGHT ME UP also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (as Jeremiah was pulled up out of the miry pit), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven, Saturn), and established my goings (at the Pre-Trib Rapture). And he hath put a NEW SONG (sung after the 1st Rapture in Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

However, Philip may have just disappeared and appeared somewhere else, so it could be both ways. Acts 8:37-39 says, "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (harpazo, as in I Thess. 4:16,17) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more."

> > Even though in a twinkling of an eye we are changed, who is to say that means we "vanish"?

I think the change in the twinkling of an eye in I Cor. 15:51-53 is when we ALL, including Paul, become immortal after the entire Body of Christ is complete after the second Rapture. It says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (i.e., die), but we shall ALL BE CHANGED, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP (but not at the first trump): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption (the dead are raised incorruptible, I Cor. 15:42), and this mortal must put on immortality." 1Cor 15:42 says, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption." However, we are not actually immortal until the Body of Christ is complete. We are in the sense that Jesus promised that we would have eternal life, but we actually are to be changed to that permanent state right after the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Heb 11:40 says, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they (Old Testament saints) without us (New Testament saints) should not be made perfect."

The first trump is in I Thess. 4:16. That is the Pre-Trib Rapture. The last trump is in I Cor. 15:51. That is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The first Rapture is before the Tribulation. The last Rapture is on the Day of God's Wrath, but it takes place before the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 hit Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:3-5).

On the Day of God's Wrath, also called the Day of the Lord, in Mt. 24:31, we see that all those that are already in Heaven are called to the General Assembly in Heaven. In Mark 13:27, both those gathered from Heaven and from Earth are mentioned. Those gathered from Heaven were caught up at the 1st Rapture. Those gathered from the Earth are caught up at the 2nd Rapture.

After the 6th seal (Rev. 6:12) is broken on that last day, Mt. 24:29-31 says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

Of that last day, Mark 13:23-27 says, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And THEN SHALL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (i.e., the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN."

Heb 12:22-26 tells us about the whole Body of Christ being called to the General Assembly in Heaven. It says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all (the Judgment Seat of Christ is the same day), and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven." Thanks for the link. Agape

Incoming email, Re: Nisan 14th

Respectfully, I cannot reconcile your 13th Nisan PREPARATION Chronology for the Crucifiction of Christ with Scripture.

HEBCAL is also inaccurate


Exd 12:5 Your lamb 07716 shall be without blemish 08549, a male 02145 of the first 01121 year 08141: ye shall take 03947 [it] out from the sheep 03532, or from the goats 05795: Exd 12:6 And ye shall keep 04931 it up until the fourteenth 0702 06240 day 03117 of the same month 02320: and the whole 03605 assembly 06951 of the congregation 05712 of Israel 03478 shall kill 07819 it in 0996 the evening 06153. Exd 12:7 And they shall take 03947 of the blood 01818, and strike 05414 [it] on the two 08147 side posts 04201 and on the upper door post 04947 of the houses 01004, wherein they shall eat 0398 it.

Jhn 19:31 The Jews 2453 therefore 3767, because 1893 it was 2258 2258 the preparation 3904, that 3363 0 the bodies 4983 should 3306 0 not 3363 remain 3306 upon 1909 the cross 4716 on 1722 the sabbath day 4521, (for 1063 that 1565 sabbath day 4521 was 2258 an high 3173 day 2250,) besought 2065 Pilate 4091 that 2443 their 846 legs 4628 might be broken 2608 , and 2532 [that] they might be taken away 142 .

My reply

Addressing the Pharisees and Sadducees in Mt 16:2-4, Jesus said, "When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES? A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but THE SIGN OF THE PROPHET JONAS."

Jonah 1:17 says, "the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS."

Jonah died and was resurrected. Keep in mind that Jonah is actually in the belly of the fish. Yet, in Jonah 2:6. he said, "I WENT DOWN TO THE BOTTOMS OF THE MOUNTAINS; THE EARTH WITH HER BARS WAS ABOUT ME FOR EVER: YET HAST THOU BROUGHT UP MY LIFE FROM CORRUPTION, O LORD my God."

Since the Sign of the Prophet Jonas applied to Jesus, he was only in the heart of the Earth three days and three nights.

Mt 12:40 says, "For as Jonas was THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH."

For Jesus, those "THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH" were Thursday (1st day), Friday (1st night then 2nd day), Saturday (2nd night then 3rd day), and Sunday (3rd night). Jesus fulfilled the sign of Jonah perfectly.

Luke 24:20,21 says, "the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, TO DAY (Sunday) IS THE THIRD DAY SINCE these things were done." These three days were Friday, Saturday and Sunday. They followed the Thursday Crucifixion.

In Mark 14:2, the chief priests and scribes said, "NOT ON THE FEAST DAY, lest there be an uproar of the people."

Re: Crucifixion Day, John 19:14,15 says, "IT WAS THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER, and about the sixth hour (9 AM, Roman time): and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, CRUCIFY HIM." He died about 3 PM and was in the tomb before Passover started at 6 PM. He died at the same time the Passover lambs began to be killed at the temple. They were killed between the evenings, i.e., between 3 and 5 PM. They had to be put into stone ovens, be roasted and eaten before midnight, when the death angel had killed the firstborn of Egypt at the time of the Exodus. That midnight of Nisan 14 was just 6 hours after the night of Nisan 14 started.

Lev 23:5,6 says, "In the FOURTEENTH DAY of the first month at even is the LORD'S PASSOVER. And on the FIFTEENTH DAY of the same month is the FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD unto the LORD".

Thursday, Nisan 13 - Preparation of the Passover, Crucifixion, "not on the feast day" (i.e., not on Friday)

Friday, Nisan 14 - Feast of PASSOVER, Annual Sabbath, an "high day"

Saturday, Nisan 15 - FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD, Annual Sabbath and Weekly Sabbath

Sunday, Nisan 16 - Feast of Firstfruits, Resurrection, first day of the week

Mt. 28:1 says, "In the end of the sabbath (lit., sabbaths, i.e., the two Annual Sabbaths, the Friday Passover and Saturday Unleavened Bread), as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week (Sunday), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." Jesus had arisen.

Ex 12:6 says, "ye shall keep it (the lamb) up until the FOURTEENTH DAY of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening." Don't get tripped up by skipping one whole day in your thinking, as many do. Hebrew days begin with night. The evening here is referring to the beginning of the 24-hour day that is Passover. Midnight was just 6 hours after Nisan 14 began at 6 PM on Thursday. We are used to thinking of night as ending the day, but to the Israelites, the day began with night. If we think in terms of night ending the day, we can drop one whole day without even realizing it.

All Hebrew days run 24 hours, from 6 PM the evening before to 6 PM 24 hours later. For example, Lev. 23:32 says of the Day of Atonement (Tishri 10), "It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the NINTH DAY of the month at even, FROM EVEN UNTO EVEN, shall ye celebrate your sabbath."

To me, nothing but a Thursday Crucifixion fits all the clues. The Last Supper was on Nisan 13 too, shortly after it started at 6 PM. Agape

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Updated 12-16-05