Pro and Con 1268

Posted 12-20-05

"Enceladus keeps supplying material to Saturn's gossamer E ring"

Cassini reveals spectacular evidence of an active moon, Dec 6, 05

Jets of fine, icy particles streaming from Saturn's moon Enceladus were captured in recent images from NASA's Cassini spacecraft. The images provide unambiguous visual evidence that the moon is geologically active.

"For planetary explorers like us, there is little that can compare to the sighting of activity on another solar system body," said Dr. Carolyn Porco, Cassini imaging team leader at the Space Science Institute in Boulder, Colo. "This has been a heart-stopper, and surely one of our most thrilling results."... Imaging team member Dr. Andrew Ingersoll from the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, said, "I think what we're seeing are ice particles in jets of water vapor that emanate from pressurized vents. To form the particles and carry them aloft, the vapor must have a certain density, and that implies surprisingly warm temperatures for a cold body like Enceladus."...

The new data also give yet another indication of how Enceladus keeps supplying material to Saturn's gossamer E ring....

Incoming email, Re: Sky Picture at Jesus Birth

The Sky picture you use for Sep. 4, 5BC (Julian), Tishri 1, 3757 appears to be set specifically at JDN 1719844.14583 or about 5:30pm on the evening of Monday. The crescent Moon is on the border between Virgo and Libra. I think it is very possible that the crescent Moon would have been easily seen the night before on Sep. 3rd, Sunday evening shortly after sunset making Tishri 1 a day earlier. The crescent Moon's position would have been slightly above Mercury looking West and in the middle area of Virgo near Spica. This does not fit the Rev. 12 passage.

My reply

You are right that, on Sept. 3, 5 BC, the sign is not there. The sign of Rev. 12:1-5 specifies that the Moon is under Virgo's feet. It is not under her feet on Sept 3, 5 BC. It is under her feet on Sept. 4, 5 BC, Julian. Below is YourSky on that day. The Moon is not a visible crescent under Virgo's feet on Sept. 3.

(omitted here because printed in my next reply)

Below, the sign is perfect on Sept 4, 5 BC, just before sunset. The Crescent Moon is under Virgo's feet. Agape

(omitted here, printed in my next reply)

His reply, RE: Sky Picture at Jesus Birth

I think you just made my point and the case for why Sep. 4th, 5BC WAS NOT the date for the birth of Christ. The dating of Tishri 1 is based on the sighting of the new crescent Moon and not on whether "Virgo is clothed in the Sun with the Moon at her feet". It is only at certain dates that both conditions occur together and 5BC is not one of those years, The year 3BC does fit. I think you are trying to force the issue with 5BC and it is simply not going to fit.

My reply

Rev. 12:1,2,5 tells us exactly how the sky looked when Jesus was born. It says, "there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (Virgo) clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon (or over) her head a crown of twelve stars (Corona Borealis): And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child (Jesus, the seed of the woman, Gen. 3:15), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (harpazo, i.e., raptured, as in I Thess. 4:16,17, and was visible going up, Acts 1:9) unto God, and to his throne" (on the 40th day, Ascension Day, Acts 1:9).

Rev. 12 doesn't mention Tishri 1, so here we are to look for the sign when Virgo is clothed with the Sun and has the Moon under her feet.

That sign happens on Tishri 1. We can tell from Hosea 6:3 and Eze. 29:17,21 that Jesus came as the former rain on Tishri 1 (i.e., the first day of the first month of the Civil Calendar) and will return as the latter rain on Nisan 1 (i.e., the first day of the first month of the Sacred Calendar). Therefore, Tishri 1 and the sign of Rev. 12 happen at the same time. It also shows that the Civil Calendar is used in the Bible as well as the Sacred Calendar.

Here is the sky on Sept. 3, 5 BC. The sign is not yet right. The Moon is still dark and is not yet under Virgo's feet. In my mind, that rules out Sept. 3, 5 BC. They only looked for the Crescent Moon for about half an hour after sunset. If they couldn't see it, they waited until the next evening.

Below is the sky on the next evening, Sept. 4, 5 BC. The sign is perfect. The crescent moon is under Virgo's feet. As soon as the sun slips over the horizon the watch begins. They would have seen the New Crescent Moon on Sept. 4.

Below is the sky on Sept. 11, 3 BC, the date Ernest L. Martin picked for Jesus' birth, and which date you believe is correct. The Moon is still dark and is approaching the feet. In those days, Tishri 1 would not start until after the New Crescent Moon was seen the next evening.

Below is the next day, Sept. 12, 3 BC, when the Crescent Moon under her feet appears, making Sept. 12, 3 BC a possibility to be considered.

Will BC 3 fit? Jesus was 33.5 years old when crucified in 30 AD, the year Ernest L. Martin picked for the Crucifixion. I agree with ELM on 30 AD, but not with Jesus' birth on Sept. 11, 3 BC.

Since there was no zero year, add 3 to 30 and subtract 1, for a total of 32 years. Subtract half a year, because the years started in Tishri, and the Crucifixion was in Nisan, for a total of 31.5 years. That's off by 2 years.

Will BC 5 fit? Add 5 to 30 and subtract 1, for a total of 34 years. Subtract the half year (from Nisan to Tishri), for a total of 33.5 years--perfect.

Herod began construction on the temple in 19/20 BC. The temple had been under construction 46 years on the 1st Passover of Jesus' ministry (John 2:18) in 27 AD. Adding 3 more Passovers brings us to 30 AD for the Crucifixion.

Jesus was baptized near his birthday in AD 26, the 15th year of Tiberius (Luke 3:1,2), who became the sole ruler over Palestine when he became Co-Rex with Augustus in 12 AD.

Ancient coins agree with this date. This coin of Tiberius was minted from 12 to 14 AD. Augustus died in 14 AD, and Tiberius became Sole Rex then. Agape

Incoming e-mail, RE: Sky Picture at Jesus Birth

When you say the "Moon is still dark" on Sep 3, 5BC or similarly on Sep 11, 3BC, I don't know exactly what you mean. In the online software you are using at formilab, it may appear to you that there is no crescent Moon visible in the sky after sunset and for about 1/2 to 1 hr.; but, you are mistaken. The 4% crescent is visible and according to all the research I have seen on spotting new crescent Moons they are well within the known parameters for being visible and seen. By using other software such as The Sky or StarryNight, which is much more realistic and detailed in its presentation, this is quite easy to see. The assigning of the date "Tishri 1" is based on the sighting of the new crescent Moon, and sometimes it occurs coincident with the scene described in Rev. 12 and sometimes it does not. In 5 BC, Tishri 1 would have begun on Sep 3rd when the new crescent Moon was visible but not at the feet of Virgo and likewise on Sep 11th, 3BC when it was also visible and was at the feet or beneath the feet of Virgo. As for the age paradox, if Christ were age 1 at 9/11/3BC (birth) as was common practice back then, then He would have been 32 yrs. and 7 months in April 30AD and would have been 30 on 9/11/27AD.
I am forwarding a sky picture for Sep 3, 5BC at 6:46pm Jerusalem time (16:45UTC)(JDN 1719843.19792) that clearly shows the crescent Moon visible in the western sky after sunset. Perhaps using the white on black background option in the colour scheme would help you to visualize this with this online software. The Sun is 9d below the horizon and the crescent Moon is 2d above the horizon.
Here is a second picture for the date 9/11/3BC, at 6:25pm Jerusalem time (16:25UTC) with the Sun 7d below the horizon and the Moon 2d above. Once again, the crescent is visible, and is still in Virgo under her feet.

My reply

I found the Moon phase chart at:

On each of the dates in question, the Moon looked like one of these pictures. As you said, it could have been seen.


In 5 BC, the Conjunction, the Dark Moon, was Sept. 1 (12:57). On the 2nd, the phase was zero percent. By Sept. 3, the thin crescent could have been seen, but it was not under Virgo's feet, as in Rev. 12:1,2,5. Even when I ran the time to when the Moon was about to go off the screen, it still was not under Virgo's feet. Yet, by Sept. 4, 5 BC, the visible crescent was neatly under her feet.

In 3 BC, the Conjunction was Sept. 9 (12:44). By Sept. 11, the crescent could have been seen, but it was under Virgo's leg. Even when I almost ran the Moon off the screen, the crescent was under Virgo's leg--not under her feet. The visible crescent was under Virgo's feet on Sept 12, 3 BC.

> > The assigning of the date "Tishri 1" is based on the sighting of the new crescent Moon, and sometimes it occurs coincident with the scene described in Rev. 12 and sometimes it does not.

Nevertheless, the Crescent Moon was under Virgo's feet when Jesus, the second Adam, was born. That's what I am looking for. It is a very important clue (Rev. 12:1,2,5). I also think Adam was created, then God rested on Tishri 1. The same sign was seen in the sky. The Crescent Moon was under Virgo's feet.

> > As for the age paradox, if Christ were age 1 at 9/11/3BC (birth) as was common practice back then, then He would have been 32 yrs. and 7 months in April 30AD and would have been 30 on 9/11/27AD.

But he was 30 in 26 AD. They just called the babies 1 year old all the first year, and 2 all the second year, etc. I doubt that we are to throw in an extra year for Jesus any more than we would for Adam. Gen 5:3 says, "Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth." I think Adam actually was 130 years old when Seth was born, not 131.
Crescent Moon Visibility and the Islamic Calendar

The ancient Hebrew calendar was also based on actual lunar crescent ... The sighting of the lunar crescent within one day of New Moon is usually difficult.
It is assumed that if the molad (i.e., the mean conjunction) occurs after noon, the lunar crescent cannot be sighted until after 6 P.M., which will then be on the following day.
> > Perhaps using the white on black background option in the colour scheme would help you to visualize this with this online software.

Thank you much! With white on black, the crescent is much clearer. I rechecked the following dates:

Sept. 18, 4044 BC (Tishri 1, 283 BJE (before Jewish Era), the Sabbath when God rested after creating Adam. The crescent Moon was under Virgo's feet.
Sept. 3, 5 BC, the Moon was near Spica, not under Virgo's feet.
Sept. 4, 5 BC (Tishri 1, 3757), my date for Jesus' birth. The crescent Moon was under Virgo's feet.
Sept. 11, 3 BC, your date for Jesus' birth. The Moon was near Spica, not under Virgo's feet.
Sept. 12, 3 BC, the Crescent Moon was under Virgo's feet.

To me, Sept. 4, 5 BC (Tishri 1, 3757) passes all the tests for the birth of Jesus. Agape

Feast of Tabernacles (Birth day of Messiah Yeshua)

Jerry Golden "REPORT",

The Feast of Tabernacles.? Booths? The birth of Yeshua?

...The Biblical name for Sukkoth is ?The Feast of Tabernacles". There are three times the Lord commanded the Jews to assemble in the Temple in Jerusalem. On these three Holidays they were to present offerings to the Lord. Those three are Passover, Shavuoth, (Pentecost) and Sukkoth. Sukkoth is the third and last of the three.

...The First Advent we have the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Passover and First Fruits. Yeshua died on Unleavened Bread, He was buried on Passover, and He rose on First Fruits, 50 days later he sent the Holy Spirit on the Following Feast of Shavuoth (Pentecost)....

Now lets move on to the birth of the Messiah. With the celebration of Sukkoth having so many wonderful teaching in it for the Church today. You would think that the New Testament would have reference in it of Sukkoth. We read in John 1:1 ?In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.? It says, the Word not only was with God, but the Word was the very manifestation of God Himself.

Then we read in John 1:14 ?And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, and glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth?. What the Word of God says is, ?The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw His Sh?kinah, The Sh?kinah glory of the Father? only Son full of grace and Glory. But did you notice the word John used to described this event. He said ?dwelt? among His people. This word dwelt come from a Greek word ?skene? and the Greeks translated that from the Hebrew word ?Tabernacle?. What I am trying to get you to see is, John was describing the Holy Day of Sukkoth, the Holy Day that celebrates the indwelling of God Himself. So the Word says: And the Word was made flesh and Tabernacled among us,?...

It is right there before us and so clear I can?t understand how it has been so missed by so many who calls themselves Biblical scholars.

If the first Advent showed Yeshua?s death on the cross on Unleavened Bread, buried on Passover, and resurrection of First Fruits, and the pouring out of His Holy Spirit on Shavout (Pentacost). Do you think that God would let such an important event as the birth of His only begotten Son go unheralded?

Sukkoth shows that God would dwell ?Tabernacle? in the midst of His people, through the presence of the Messiah, Yeshua. There is much more evidence as well, since we know that Yeshua died on Passover and we also know His ministry lasted 3 ? years we can backtrack and that puts us right at Sukkoth as well. Nearly every serious Bible Theologian calculates that His birth was in the fall, that also is Sukkoth.

One of the ceremonies of Sukkoth is the pouring of water, and a time of prayer for water and rain in Israel. During the second Temple period a Priest would take a water pitcher down to the pool of shiloach (today called Siloam in the city of David) he would bring it back to the Temple. Crowds of people would follow him dancing and singing the Hellel, (Psalms 113-118) The highlight of this ceremony was when the Priest would pour this water at the altar of the Temple. It became known as ?Simcha Bet-Ha-sho-evah? (The rejoicing of the House of Drawing Water)

The question is, why would there be so much rejoicing at this pouring of water? It has to be more than rejoicing of the future rain on Israel, as important as that might be. Because we read in Isaiah 12:3 ?Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation?. (Salvation in Hebrew is Yeshua, the name of the Messiah) GLORY TO GOD.

It was much more than the pouring out of water at the Temple, or even for the rain. The Simcha Bet Ha-sho-evah pointed directly to the coming of the Messiah and the days of redemption when the water of the Holy Spirit would be poured out upon all Israel.

Now we can appreciate the Scripture that was recorded on one day in the Messiah?s life and that day was on a Sukkoth. John 7:37-39 ?In the last day, that great day of the feast, Yeshua stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spoke he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given: because Yeshua was not yet glorified.) Think for a moment of the time and place of these words being proclaimed by Yeshua. It was Sukkoth and it was the time of the pouring of the water. The crowds were filled with those who had expectation of the Messiah and the Holy Spirit He would bring. At the moment of the time of the pouring of the water the Messiah stood and made this bold proclamation. He was saying. I am the Messiah, do you truly want the living water of the spirit of God? If you truly want the Bet Ha-sho-evah, believe in me. I am the Messiah who will pour out the Holy Spirit on Israel.

After eight days of Sukkoth we will end this celebration, and on the 8th day our Messiah was circumcised....
Shalom, jerry golden

My reply

> > Yeshua died on Unleavened Bread, He was buried on Passover

I believe Yeshua was crucified, died and buried on the Preparation of the Passover (Thursday, Nisan 13, April 6, 30 AD Julian).

Lev 23:5-7 says, "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even (starting at 6 PM on Nisan 13) is the LORD'S passover (Nisan 14). And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Saturday, Nisan 8, Yeshua arrived at Bethany SIX DAYS BEFORE THE PASSOVER (John 12:1,12,13)
Sunday, Nisan 9, Palm Sunday, Yeshua presented himself as King
Monday, Nisan 10, Yeshua cursed the fig tree and purified the Temple
Tuesday, Nisan 11, fig tree was dried up, Yeshua gave the Olivet Discourse
Wednesday, Nisan 12, Yeshua anointed for burial. It was TWO DAYS BEFORE THE PASSOVER (Mark 14:1)
Thursday, Nisan 13, preparation of the Passover - CRUCIFIXION 9 AM - Last Supper after 13th started 6 PM Wed.
Friday, Nisan 14, PASSOVER - first day since - started 6 PM Thurs.
Saturday, Nisan 15, UNLEAVENED BREAD- second day since - started 6 PM Fri.
Sunday, Nisan 16, FIRSTFRUITS - Resurrection (third day rise again, Luke 24:7) - THIRD DAY SINCE (Luke 24:21) - started 6 PM Sat.

Mar 14:1,2 says, AFTER TWO DAYS was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. But they said, NOT ON THE FEAST DAY, lest there be an uproar of the people."

John 19:13-15 says, "When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. And IT WAS THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER, and about the sixth hour (Roman time, i.e., 9 AM our time): and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him."

John 19:30-33 says, "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and GAVE UP THE GHOST. The Jews therefore, because IT WAS THE PREPARATION, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for FOR THAT SABBATH DAY WAS AN HIGH DAY [the annual Sabbath, Passover],) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs" John 19:36 says, "not a bone of him shall be broken."

Yeshua Christ is our Passover. 1Co 5:7 says, "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ OUR PASSOVER is sacrificed for us". He was put on the cross at the time of the morning sacrifice. HE DIED "BETWEEN THE TWO EVENINGS" (Ex. 12:6, literal translation, Green's Interlinear), "at the going down of the sun" (De. 16:6), i.e., between 3 and 5 PM on Thursday, Nisan 13). The going down of the Sun portrayed Yeshua, as the "Sun of righteousness" (Mal. 4:2), when he "descended first into the lower parts of the earth" (Eph. 4:9).

While on the cross, Yeshua told the thief, "TO DAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE (Luke 23:43). That day was Thursday, the "preparation of the passover".

Mark 15:42-46 says, "And now WHEN THE EVEN WAS COME, BECAUSE IT WAS THE PREPARATION (i.e., Thursday, Nisan 13), THAT IS THE DAY BEFORE THE SABBATH (Nisan 14, the Passover annual Sabbath, an high day), Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and LAID HIM IN A SEPULCHRE".

From his death until his resurrection, Yeshua spent "THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH" (Mt. 12:40). Hebrew days are 12 hours of night, then 12 hours of day. Those three days and three nights were Thursday (day), Friday (night then day), Saturday (night then day), and Sunday (night).

Sunday was the third day since the Crucifixion. Luke 24:21 says, "But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day (Sunday) is the THIRD DAY SINCE these things were done" (i.e., [1] Friday, [2] Saturday and [3] Sunday).

In Ant. XVIII. III. 3, Josephus said, "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

The Tractate Sanhedrin 43a, in the Babylonian Talmud, says, "ON THE EVE OF PESAH THEY HUNG JESHU (THE NAZARENE). And the crier went forth before him forty days (saying), [Jeshu the Nazarene] goeth forth to be stoned, because he hath practiced magic and deceived and led astray Israel. Any one who knoweth aught in his favour, let him come and declare concerning him. And they found naught in his favour, And THEY HUNG HIM ON THE EVE OF PESAH." Shalom and agape

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