Pro and Con 1271

Posted 1-5-06

Post on Five Doves site, Re: "PRE- TRIB REBUTTAL"

TJ (31 Dec 2005)

Paul according to the Pre Trib Rapture theory would be part of the Church. Why then is he resurrected at the 2nd Coming?

Death is destroyed at the 2nd coming and kingdom , when the corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and the mortal shall have put on immortality. This happens when Jesus comes for his own and returns to deliver up the kingdom to the Father. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. Amen.

PAUL TO TIMOTHY

2nd Timothy 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead ------- at his appearing and his kingdom; ( The Appearing here is associated with the setting up of the millenial kingdom of Christ so this is clearly the appearing of Christ at His 2nd coming.)
4: 6 As for me, my life has already been poured out as an offering to God. The time of my death is near. ( Paul is saying he about to die)
4: 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: ( Paul says he has finished his course)
4: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day ( The Day of Jesus Appearing / And Kingdom) : and not to me only ( Paul will be dead at the day of the 2nd coming) , but unto all them also that love his appearing ( The living that witness it on the day it happens) .

PAUL TO THESSALONIANS

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (CLICK HERE Acts 1:11 ) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


1ST CRN 15 :23 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
15 :24 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;
15: 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 1 Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Read Click here 1Cr 15:51 and 1Cr 15:52

15: 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 15: 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

GOD BLESS. IN CHRIST T.J.

My reply

> > Paul according to the Pre Trib Rapture theory would be part of the Church. Why then is he resurrected at the 2nd Coming?

He isn't resurrected at the 2nd Coming. He is resurrected at the Pre-Trib Rapture. He is one of the 24 elders seen in Heaven right after the Rapture (Rev. 4:1-4).

> > 2nd Timothy 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead ------- at his appearing and his kingdom; ( The Appearing here is associated with the setting up of the millenial kingdom of Christ so this is clearly the appearing of Christ at His 2nd coming.)

Jesus will APPEAR on the same day that he receives his KINGDOM. THAT DAY is 7 months BEFORE the Second Advent. Eze. 38:18-20 describes the Day of God's Wrath. Then Eze. 39:12,13 says, "SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (i.e., at the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD."

His "appearing" refers to the Sign of the Son of Man (Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:12f). Jesus is seen sitting on his throne in the sky on the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which is on the first day of the Millennium. On that day, Jesus receives his kingdom and is installed as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Eze 38:23 says of THAT DAY, "Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I WILL BE KNOWN IN THE EYES OF MANY NATIONS (i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man will be seen), and they shall know that I am the LORD."

THAT DAY is the greatest day ever. Isa 2:11 says, "The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in THAT DAY." Isa 17:7 says, "At THAT DAY shall a man look to his Maker, and his EYES shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel." Jer 30:7 says, "Alas! for THAT DAY is great, so that none is like it: it is even THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it."

The saints in Heaven receive their rewards for their belief while the unbelievers receive their rewards for their unbelief on Earth. It is the Day of Destruction on Earth.

Dan 7:9 tells us about THAT DAY. It says, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: THE JUDGMENT WAS SET, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till THE BEAST WAS SLAIN, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like THE SON OF MAN came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And THERE WAS GIVEN HIM DOMINION, AND GLORY, AND A KINGDOM, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

Rev. 11:15-18 says of that day, "the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders (INCLUDING PAUL), which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art (on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium), and wast (at the FIRST COMING), and art to come (AT THE SECOND COMING, 7 MONTHS FUTURE, (Eze. 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast REIGNED. And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (AT THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST), and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great (i.e., all saints are in Heaven); AND shouldest destroy them (THE UNBELIEVERS) which destroy the earth."

On the Day of the Lord, THAT DAY of the General Assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23), the Pre-Trib saints are gathered to the General Assembly from one end of Heaven to the other. Mt. 24:31 says, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

At the same time, the Pre-Wrath saints are gathered from the Earth. Mark 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (at the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those caught up previously at the Pre-Trib Rapture).

> > 4: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day ( The Day of Jesus Appearing / And Kingdom) : and not to me only ( Paul will be dead at the day of the 2nd coming) , but unto all them also that love his appearing ( The living that witness it on the day it happens) .

The day of Jesus' appearing (i.e., when the Sign of the Son of Man is seen) is the same day that Jesus receives his Kingdom. It also is the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

> > 1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven...with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

I Thess. 4:16 is about the FIRST TRUMP, THE FIRST RAPTURE, THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE.

I Cor. 15:51-54 tells us about the LAST TRUMP, THE SECOND RAPTURE, THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE. It says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL (including Paul) be CHANGED (ACTUALLY BE MADE IMMORTAL), In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (i.e., all saints, the entire Body of Christ in Heaven) shall be CHANGED. For this corruptible must put on incorruption (the dead are raised incorruptible, I Cor. 15:42):, and THIS MORTAL MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption (some at the Pre-Trib Rapture, others at the Pre-Wrath Rapture), and this mortal (ALL SAINTS) shall have put on immortality (AFTER THE SECOND RAPURE), then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: PRO CON 1269

Hope your Christmas was great! Just would like you to comment on the below portion of pc 1269. In revelation, doesn’t it speak about Israel being attacked by GOG when Israel declares, peace, peace! Thanks in advance for your reply.

> > Shimon Peres Calls 2006 'Year for Peace', Meets European Parliament Members at European Jewish Congress Dinner

Contact: Avner Tavori of the World Jewish Congress http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2005/mjm1220-2.htm

PARIS, Dec. 15 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Meeting with 130 members of the European Parliament at the annual European Jewish Congress dinner on Israeli-European relations last evening, former Israeli Vice Prime Minister Shimon Peres called on the European Union to play a larger role in the Middle East peace process in the upcoming year, which the Noble Laureate considers will be a "Year of Peace"...

My reply

Christmas dinner was delayed at our family get-together until the three, our daughter, her daughter, and her son, that were in an accident could get there--in a different vehicle. They were ok, but the fairly new CR-V was pretty beat up. They just missed plowing into a house. A woman turned left in front of them and caused the accident. We're so thankful no one was hurt. We had a good day otherwise.

Rev 6:4 says, "there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."

Jer 6:14 says, "They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, peace, peace; when there is no peace."

Gog's army will attack Israel on the Day of the Lord, which is also the Day of God's Wrath. The Pre-Wrath Rapture will catch all saints up to Heaven before the asteroids hit at noon (Zeph. 2:3-5). Only unbelievers will be left on Earth.

The elusive peace will slip away from Israel again. The Lord will fight for Israel that day. Zech. 14:1-3 says, "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations (i.e., the United Nations) against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

The asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 will impact Earth. One will hit the Mediterranean Sea. The other one will destroy Babylon, Iraq. When "he fought in the day of battle" refers to Joshua's Long Day. This will be Yahshua's Long Day.

Joshua 10:10-14 says, "the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Bethhoron, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah. And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword. Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel."

Isa 24:1 says of that day, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof."

Eze. 38:18-20 tells of the catastrophe of the Day of the Lord. It will take 7 months for Israel to bury the dead to cleanse the land for Christ's return (Eze. 39:12,13). Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: "The New World Trade Center"

Pastor F.M. Riley (28 Dec 2005)
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2005/fmriley1228.htm

...While writing this study, a news article I received several months ago came to mind. This news article was sent to me from a highly reliable Internet news service. To the best of my knowledge this news has never been reported on the national news channels in the United States.

The news article reports that even while the fighting continues in Iraq, engineers from the U.S., Great Britain, and other countries are laying out plans to build a “World Peace Center” in the old city of Babylon. The article further reported that a number of nations have already pledged funds for the project in the amount of some $150 billion dollars.

Folks, this news article makes it obvious that the nations [or world planners] are serious about this project. For “peace” or whatever reason, it is obvious that “someone” [?] really wants the city of Babylon rebuilt. Well guess what? God’s wonderful inspired Word declared centuries ago that Babylon would be rebuilt in the end-time. The “more sure Word of prophecy,” 2 Peter 1:19, is going to be fulfilled just exactly as the prophecies are set forth in the Scriptures. Praise the Lord!

Incoming e-mail, Re: 2 questions for you

I have a couple of questions that need a bible expert to answer:

1. Did Melchisadech die or was he raptured?

2. Could the destruction of Damascus come before the rapture, or does the rapture have to be first?

Many thanks as always...

My reply

Good to hear from you....

> > 1. Did Melchisadech die or was he raptured?

I don't know. He was a type of Christ, and the things that are written are intended to paint this picture. Other than that, we aren't told. The key words below are "being by interpretation," "like (symbolic language) unto the Son of God." and "similitude."

Heb 7:1-27 says, "For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like (symbolic language) unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself."

Gen 14:18 says, "Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God."

Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchisedek.

Psa 110:1-4 says, "The LORD (YHWH) said unto my Lord (Christ), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD (YHWH) shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The LORD (YHWH) hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou (Christ) art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord (Christ) at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."

> > 2. Could the destruction of Damascus come before the rapture, or does the rapture have to be first?

I see no way that it could come before the Rapture. I think it will happen at the end of the shortened Tribulation, when the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 hits the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:3-5).

Isa 17:1-14 says, "The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid. The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts. And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean. And it shall be as when the harvestman gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim. Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the LORD God of Israel. At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel (i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the sky, Mt. 24:31; Rev. 6:12f). And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images. In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation. Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips: In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow (i.e., the Day of God's Wrath). Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind. And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us."...Agape

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