Pro and Con 1278

Posted 3-1-06

Bronze Age Sky Disc Deciphered

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1915398,00.html

27.02.2006
3,600 years ago...The mystery-shrouded sky disc of Nebra was used as an advanced astronomical clock....for the harmonization of solar and lunar calendars....

The sky disc of Nebra was used to determine if and when a thirteenth month...should be added to a lunar year to keep the lunar calendar in sync with the seasons....

The 32-centimeter-wide (seven-inch) bronze disc with gold-leaf appliqués representing the sun, the moon, and the stars is the oldest visual representation of the cosmos known to date. A cluster of seven dots has previously been interpreted as the Pleiades constellation as it appeared 3,600 years ago.

The explanation of the disc's purpose sheds new light on the astronomical knowledge and abilities of the Bronze Age people, who used a combination of solar and lunar calendars as important indicators for agricultural seasons and passage of time.

"The sensation lies in the fact that the Bronze Age people managed to harmonize the solar and lunar years. We never thought they would have managed that," Meller said....

Ever since the disc was discovered, archaeologists and astronomers have been puzzled by the shape of the moon as it appears on the disc.

"I wanted to explain the thickness of the crescent on the sky disc of Nebra because it is not a new moon phase," said Hamburg astronomer Ralph Hansen.

In his quest to explain why the Nebra astronomers created a sky map with a four or five days old moon on it, Hansen consulted the "Mul-Apin" collection of Babylonian documents from the 7th and 6th centuries B.C.

These cuneiform writings represent, according to Hansen, a compendium of "astronomic knowledge from the earliest times." They also contain a calculation rule for the crescent that looks strikingly similar to the one from Nebra.

According to the ancient Babylonian rule, a thirteenth month should only be added to the lunar calendar only when one sees the constellation of the moon and the Pleiades exactly as they appear on the Nebra sky disc....

GRB 060218: A Mysterious Transient

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

What is it? Something is happening in a small portion of the sky toward the constellation of Aries and telescopes around the globe are tracking an unusual transient there as it changes day by day. No one is sure what it will do next. The entire space mystery began on February 18 when the Earth-orbiting robot Swift satellite noticed an unusual transient began to glow dimly in gamma rays....

...Whether GRB 060218 represents a new type of gamma ray burst, a new type of supernova, or an unusual link between the GRBs and supernovas has become an instant topic of research.

Supernova bursts with opportunity for astronomers

By Dan Vergano, 2-23-06
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2006-02-23-supernova_x.htm

A supernova has astronomers around the globe racing to their telescopes.

The advent of the exploding star was heralded by a burst of gamma-ray radiation, detected Feb. 18 by NASA's Swift satellite. Three days later, scientists matched the burst to the birth of a supernova.

The gamma ray burst was the second closest to Earth ever detected, scientists say. The supernova is 440 million light-years away in the direction of the constellation Aries.

Anxious Eyes Tracking DOOMSDAY ASTEROID

Observatory at CSI among those monitoring a possible collision course with earth
http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/lead-story230.htm

It's been said the only two things in life that are certain are death and taxes.

If an asteroid aimed frighteningly close to the Home Planet keeps to its path on April 13, 2036, then well, forget the taxes....

The asteroid -- appropriately named Apophis, Greek for The Destroyer -- could squeeze past within a couple hundred thousand miles -- but even a tiny change in its course in the other direction could have dire consequences, Robbins said.

"From a space point of view, [200,000 miles is] very, very close," he said.

Incoming e-mail

http://www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/9278005cp.shtml

2-20-06 - Is There Life After Death? An Emminent International Cardiologist Believes He Can PROVE IT!

Clinically dead people have been brought back to life and have recounted in great detail what had been done to them in the hospital ... Whilst they were dead!...

He interviewed 344 heart patients at his hospital in Arnhem, Netherlands who had all clinically died, some for five minutes or longer, before being resuscitated. Of these, 62 — or 18 per cent — reported some ongoing experience after the medical monitors had pronounced them to be dead. Half were aware they were ‘dead’, and 15 had out-of-body experiences where they were aware of the actions of the hospital staff around the body. One patient was able to tell staff who were looking for his dentures that a blond nurse had removed them, and had been put them on a tray on the other side of the room....

Incoming e-mail, pret 03

From: R---
To: M---
Cc: Marilyn Agee

M---, this one page of Scriptures totally blows Preterism out of the water!!!

Preterists teach that Jesus came back to earth from heaven around 70 AD. There is no record ANYWHERE of this! OK, so then the Preterists say He came back "spiritually" or "allegorically." And THAT, my friend, violates all the following Scriptures. Read and enjoy. R...
---
Preterism
Coming Again in like Manner, By Tim Warner 10/2003
http://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret03.html

We could list many passages of Scripture that announce the details of the second coming. For example, the Olivet Discourse states plainly: (Mt. 24:29-31 omitted here; see below)

All orthodox Christians acknowledge the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was crucified is quite plain from Scripture. Yet, this simple truth creates serious problems for preterists. Here's why.

If Jesus came in AD70 as preterists claim, no one saw Him. There is no record in Church history of such a coming. The "dead in Christ" were not resurrected bodily in AD70. In fact, the whole early Church lived through AD70 without ever suspecting that Jesus' second coming had occurred. They remained in a state of expectation of Christ's future coming both before and after AD70.

Preterists avoid the problem of no historical evidence by claiming that Jesus' coming was "spiritual" and "invisible." He therefore did not come "in the flesh," as He did at His first advent. The question is, what kind of "coming" do the Scriptures predict?

We could list many passages of Scripture that announce the details of the second coming. For example, the Olivet Discourse states plainly:

Matt 24:29-31
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (NKJ)

Preterists simply interpret such passages allegorically. The details of the second coming are not to be taken literally, according to preterists. Allegorical interpretation of prophecy is nothing new. It has been fairly common since the third century, being employed by all those who deny Israel's future blessedness mentioned many times in Old Testament prophecy. Therefore, taking the details of the second coming mentioned by Jesus in a mystical way is not much of a stretch for those who are used to doing this with Old Testament prophecy (a-millennialists). However, Luke recorded something that is not so easily dismissed by those who allegorize Bible prophecy. Acts 1:1-12- 1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. 4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; 5 "for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." 9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey. (NKJ)

According to the two angels, Jesus' second coming will be "in like manner" as His ascension into heaven. This begs the question, in what manner did Jesus ascend into heaven? The answer is in our text. Jesus was with the Apostles in person, in His resurrected state. Verse 3 says they saw Him for forty days prior to His ascension. Verse 4 says Jesus was "assembled together with them." Verse 9 indicates that the Apostles observed Jesus' ascension into the sky until a cloud obscured Him from their view. From this historical narrative we know without question that Jesus ascended in full view of His Apostles in person, visibly. The angels told them that "this same Jesus" would be coming back "in like manner as you have seen Him go into heaven."

This is of course a prophecy. But, it is not so easily allegorized, as preterists are fond of doing. The reason is the words "this same Jesus" and the words "in like manner" connect the prophesied event with a historical event they all witnessed, the ascension. "Jesus" was His human name given Him by Mary. We are left with no alternative than to accept that Jesus' second coming will be bodily, in person, in the full view of believers. This agrees with other statements of Scripture, such as Matt. 24:30 and Rev. 1:7, which indicate Jesus' coming will be visible to both believers and unbelievers alike.

Preterists have a real dilemma here. The Bible states plainly that Jesus was raised in the same physical body that hung on the cross.

Luke 24:37-43 - But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them. (KJV)

> > The purpose of showing them His hands and feet was so they could see the physical scars from the crucifixion. Notice Jesus' interaction with Thomas.

> > John 20:24-29
24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe." 26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (NKJ)

> > The resurrection of Jesus Christ is all about the resurrection of the body. And it was in this resurrected body that the disciples watched Him ascend into heaven. In the very next chapter Peter preached that when Jesus ascended into heaven, He sat down at the right hand of the Father. Peter got this from the prophecy in Psalm 110:1. "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." This is one of the Psalms Jesus explained to the disciples on the Sunday of His resurrection (cf. Luke 24:26-27,44-45). Jesus ascended into heaven in the same body that bore the marks of the crucifixion. He is seated at the Father's right hand. And "this same Jesus ... will come again in like manner" as the Apostles saw Him go into heaven, visibly, in person, bodily. In fact, that is what the Greek word "parousia" means, which is used repeatedly for His coming. It means the presence of His own person. It cannot refer to some mystical invisible apparition.

The question preterists cannot answer is "What happened to Jesus' resurrected body?" And how could "this same Jesus" have come again in AD70 "in like manner" as the Apostles saw Him go into heaven, when no one saw Him?

Just as problematic for preterists as "this same Jesus" are the passages that refer to the "Son of Man" coming in the clouds of heaven. Justin wrote, "He said then that He was the Son of man, either because of His birth by the Virgin, who was, as I said, of the family of David and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham; or because Adam was the father both of Himself and of those who have been first enumerated from whom Mary derives her descent," (Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, 100). And Irenaeus wrote, "For it was for this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God....He therefore, the Son of God, our Lord, being the Word of the Father, and the Son of man, since He had a generation as to His human nature from Mary — who was descended from mankind, and who was herself a human being — was made the Son of man." (Irenaeus, Bk. III, ch, xix). The term, "Son of Man," refers to Christ as a human person, being physically born from the womb of Mary. In all the following passages of Scripture, Jesus as "Son of Man" (the human being) is to come in the clouds of heaven. This cannot be some mystical apparition, but the actual incarnate person of Jesus Christ.

Matt 16:27 27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. (NKJ)

Matt 24:26-30 - 26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (NKJ)

> > Matt 25:31 - "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. (NKJ)

My reply

I certainly agree with you regarding Preterists. I can't see why any thinking person could believe that all the things in Revelation have already happened.

I believe God said what he meant in the Bible. There are a few mistakes made by translators, but none in the original editions. I take it literally, and can't understand how the Preterists can believe that Jesus returned in 70 AD. I agree that at the Second Advent, every eye will see him. Rev 1:7 says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

In 70 AD, Jesus was not seen by anyone, let alone every eye seeing him. No asteroid called Wormwood (Rev. 8:11) hit Earth. The worldwide earthquake of Eze. 38:20 did not take place. At that time, every wall will fall, worldwide. The cities of the nations will fall (Rev. 16:19). Jerusalem will be divided into three parts. These things have not yet taken place.

> > Preterists avoid the problem of no historical evidence by claiming that Jesus' coming was "spiritual" and "invisible." He therefore did not come "in the flesh," as He did at His first advent. The question is, what kind of "coming" do the Scriptures predict?

> > We could list many passages of Scripture that announce the details of the second coming. For example, the Olivet Discourse states plainly:

> > Matt 24:29-31 - 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (emphasis mine)(NKJ)

The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place just before God's Wrath hits Earth. In Mt. 24:31, the saints caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture are called to the General Assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23). On the same day the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place. Mark 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those caught up previously in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

> > Preterists simply interpret such passages allegorically. The details of the second coming are not to be taken literally...

If we take the first Advent literally, we should take the "details of the second coming" literally. However, I don't think Mt. 24:30 is the Second Advent. The Sign of the Son of Man takes place after the sixth seal is broken on the Eve of Trumpets, just before the wrath of God falls on Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:3-5) on the Feast of Trumpets.

Rev. 6:12-17 says, "I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The Day of God's Wrath is on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. Joel 1:15 says, "Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand (i.e., it is Elul 29), and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come (the next day, Tishri 1). Joel 2:1-3 says, "Blow ye the TRUMPET in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (Gog's army, Eze. 38:18-20); there hath not been ever the like (i.e., then Gog's army does not attack at the beginning of the Tribulation, only on the Day of God's Wrath), neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them."

When the clouds are rolled aside like a scroll, men took up in the sky and see Jesus sitting on his throne. This is the day he receives his kingdom, but he receives it in Heaven. This will be Jesus' Coronation Day, the day of the Marriage of the Lamb, the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven. Every believer will be receiving his rewards in Heaven while the unbelievers left on Earth receive God's wrath.

Rev. 11:18,19 says, "And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

Daniel 12:1-3 says of the Day of God's Wrath, when the False Prophet is deposed, "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered (i.e., the 144,000 will be caught up to heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture), every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (the last rank in the First Resurrection), some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament (expanse of space); and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Jer 30:7 says of the Day of God's Wrath, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

The Day of God's Wrath is the Day of the Lord. It can't begin until after Elijah has come. Mal. 4:5,6 says, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

The 7 months of Eze. 39:12,13 have to take place between the Day of God's Wrath on Tishri 1 and the Second Advent on the following Nisan 1. That year is a Leap Year. That's why there can be 7 months between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1. Normally, there are only 6 months between them.

Following the Day of God's Wrath, Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD." He will be glorified at the Second Advent. Agape

His reply

Thanks for your input. This is excellent! I don't see how any thinking person can be a "Preterist" after thinking through what you just wrote and comparing Scripture with Scripture as you have done. Nice to hear from you again!

   Pro and Con 1279   Or Return   Home


Contact me for more information at: mjagee1@earthlink.net


Send me e-mail now


8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (951) 653-4110


© 1996-2006, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 3-1-06