Pro and Con 1304

Posted 11-11-06

Don't miss the beautiful sight on Five Doves, an "Albino Peacock"

Steve Berryman (31 Oct 2006)

More Rapture Clues?

Jesus said, "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man" (Luke 17:26).

A friend in Florida called to tell me something neat that she figured out. Hanukkah, Kislev 25, 5767, our Saturday Dec. 16, 2006, will be the 350th day of 2006. There is a tie-in. Noah lived 350 years after the Flood, which was in 1656 AH. He ended his 350th year in 2006 AH (1656 AH + 350 = 2006 AH).

Of course, 1656 AD + 350 = 2006 AD too. She asked if anything important happened in 1656 AD? Yes. Christian Huygens, of the Netherlands, discovered Saturn's rings and its 4th satellite, Titan, in 1656 AD.

She also asked if I had seen the picture of the gigantic storm at Saturn's south pole. Yes. I just got an email that said, "Marilyn, maybe you have seen this already. Saturn is exhibiting some astonishing things!"

"Colossal Hurricane-Like Storm Found on Saturn"
By Will Dunham, Reuters

WASHINGTON (Nov. 10) - "A colossal, swirling storm with a well-developed eye is churning at Saturn's south pole, the first time a truly hurricane-like storm has been detected on a planet other than Earth, NASA images showed on Thursday....

"The storm on the giant, ringed planet is about 5,000 miles wide, or roughly two-thirds the diameter of Earth. Its winds howl clockwise at 350 mph." There's that 350 again. This seems like another sign.

Jesus Christ, both the First and the Last, is the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Lamb of God

Jesus Christ is both God (Rev. 4:2,3) and the Lamb of God (Rev. 5:6). II Cor. 5:19 explains how that is possible. It says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself."

In Rev 22:13, Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the END, the FIRST and the LAST." In verse 16, he explained, "I am the root (YHWH) and the offspring (Jesus) of David".

Rev. 4:2,3 says, "And immediately I (John) was (lit., became) in the spirit (i.e., at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture): and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat (God, both YHWH King of Israel and YHWH the Redeemer, i.e., Yahshua, YHWH Jesus Christ, the LORD Jesus Christ) was to look upon like a jasper (THE LAST stone in the breastplate) and a sardine stone (THE FIRST stone in the breastplate): and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald" (Judah's stone). Jesus is also the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

We see the Lamb of God in Rev 5:6. It says, "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Both the Old and New Testaments agree on this. Isaiah 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the FIRST (YHWH King of Israel), and I am the LAST (YHWH of hosts, the redeemer); and beside me there is no God."

Ex. 28:17-21 says, "And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the FIRST row shall be a SARDIUS, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a JASPER: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings. And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes."

Incoming e-mail, Re: Dan. 9:26 MT question

Shalom, Recently, I have conducted a great deal of intense theological research into the KJV transliterated passage of Daniel 9:26, and I hereby humbly submit my findings to the review and attention of your Biblical wisdom.

I make NO claim of Biblical Hebrew/Geek language proficiency, but merely present factual data that is logical and grammatically applicable, as well as easily accessible, to any concerned student of Bible theology.

The summation of my findings addressed below are based upon the instrument of legitimate application of Biblical Hebrew grammar and principals, that both verifies and supports the publication of the notable theological scholar Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton, regarding his English transliteration of the Greek Old Testament Septuagint, published by Samuel Bagster & Sons, Ltd., London, 1851.

From an extract of his work we present the exact copied passages of Daniel 9:25-27 for your analysis and review.

25. And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem, until Christ the prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.

26. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.

27. And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of the time an end shall be put to the desolation.

What we see in the above passages of Daniel 9:25-26 from the transliterated Greek Septuagint is that the coming ‘Anointed One’ (the Messiah) is without any doubt the suggested ‘final authority of destruction’ of both the former city of Jerusalem and its Holy Temple. As history records, this prophecy was fulfilled by Titus Caesar in 70 A.D acting as the prophesied ‘coming prince’ and agent for the ‘final authority’ (the Anointed One - Messiah).

To this end, in the transliteration of Daniel 9:26 listed below we see the Hebrew word ‘shachath’ (ishchith) translated as the English words ‘shall destroy’. While this transliteration is perfectly acceptable, there is also an equally viable transliteration of this word, which is ‘He shall destroy or He will destroy’. This same exact translation and Hebrew word (shachath – ishchith) is applied to several other OT passages – Daniel 9:24 -25, and Psalms 78:38...

Going forward, the next word of concern in the above Daniel 9:26 transliteration is the Hebrew words ‘am’ (om) ?? which is KJV transliterated as ‘people’ and 'im (om) which denotes ‘with’. Regarding 'am vs. 'im, these two words do look pretty much identical in Hebrew. In fact, they both have the same two consonants (ayin and mem) – Strong’s Hebrew #’s 5971-5974.

The only difference is their vocalization, with the word for ‘people’ having a patach (a short ‘a’), and the word for ‘with’ having a hireq (an ‘i’). However, these vowels, neither of which would have been represented historically in either of these words with a mater lectionis (i.e., the use of a yodh or a waw to indicate which vowel was present), date to the era of the Masoretes (circa A.D. 800, give or take), so they are in a sense Interpretations and derivations generated from the original word. Moreover, Strong’s numbers were NOT even mentioned nor applied to Scriptural texts until the mid 1800’s.

Therefore, it is perfectly legitimate, per the above argument to make use of Biblical Hebrew emendation (a return to the original word) here, as did Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton in his transliteration of the OT Greek Septuagint and define the Hebrew word 'am/im (om) as ‘with’. Thus, one can authoritatively derive a reading that solves the problem of Daniel 9:26 and then reads, "he will/shall destroy the city and the holy place with the prince who is to come".

The conclusion of the above English transliteration of the Hebrew Daniel 9:26 is once again an exact supporting match to Brenton’s OT Greek Septuagint transliteration and suggests that the Messiah is the One who has the ‘final authority of destruction’ and the ‘coming prince’ is merely His instrument of fulfillment.

There are many Scriptural passages applying this same word ‘om’ transliterated as ‘with’ – Gen. 24:12, 31:32 Deut. 18:13 and the list goes on....

However, in light of the above I must stress that the present KJV reading of Daniel 9:27 is completely acceptable as long as one concludes, as did the first 1611 KJV translators, that the Prince in both Daniel 9:25-26 are the same – the Anointed Messiah. This application of the current reading suggests that it was the Jews and their provocative actions, resulting in the crucifixion of the Messiah, that actually inspired and inflamed the destruction of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple by the Romans.

Meanwhile, this implies that the Messiah did exact divine retribution upon Jerusalem and the Holy Temple by the instrument of the ‘coming prince’ the Romans and Titus Caesar.

Moreover, the positive aspect of the above analysis is that the Hebrew transliteration (as well as the OT Greek Septuagint) of Daniel 9:26 leaves NO room for further speculation as to the identity of the subsequent allusive ‘HE’ in Daniel 9:27. The ‘Confirmer of the Covenant’ is clearly the Prince Messiah. To assume otherwise, after reading this analysis, would be purely theoretical/hypothetical speculation and NOT based on sound Hebraic grammatical FACTS.

In summary, I suggest that until another legitimate and viable alternative to the above-mentioned transliteration of Daniel 9:26, that can ‘Specifically Name’ the He of Daniel 9:27, as this suggested analysis does (the Messiah), than this finding must in all theological professionalism carry the greatest creditability of current suggested transliterations. Until His Trumpet Sounds

My reply

> > (the Messiah) is without any doubt the suggested ‘final authority of destruction’ of both the former city of Jerusalem and its Holy Temple....
> > Septuagint) of Daniel 9:26 leaves NO room for further speculation as to the identity of the subsequent allusive ‘HE’ in Daniel 9:27. The ‘Confirmer of the Covenant’ is clearly the Prince Messiah.

I strongly disagree. You sound like a Preterist. I looked up several translations of Dan. 9:26 in eSword. The preponderance of evidence is against you. After the Messiah is slain, there is a prince that shall come. The Messiah that is crucified and this prince that shall come some time after the Crucifixion are two separate individuals.

(Geneva) And after threescore and two weekes, shal Messiah be slaine, and shal haue nothing, and the people of the prince that shal come, shal destroy the citie and the Sanctuarie, and the end thereof shalbe with a flood: and vnto the end of the battell it shalbe destroyed by desolations.

(Bishops) After these threescore & two weekes shall Messiah be slaine, & not for him selfe: and the people of the prince that shal come, shall destroy the citie and the sanctuarie, and the ende thereof shalbe with a fludde, and vnto the ende of the battel it shalbe destroyed by desolatios.

(JPS) And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(Webster) And after sixty and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined.

There are breaks in the time line. Lets read Daniel 9:25-27 in the Literal Version and see where the breaks in the time line belong. Words in parentheses are mine. Once it speaks of the Messiah being killed, this passage doesn't mention him anymore. From the time of the Crucifixion in 30 AD, it looks forward, first to 70 AD, then to the 7-year Tribulation that is still future today.

Daniel 9:25-27 (LITV) says, "Know, then, and understand that from the going out of a word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem (the word given by Cyrus, Isa. 44:28), to Messiah the Prince (Jesus), shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks (483 years). The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction. 26 And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off (karath, killed), but not for Himself" (i.e., for us). (483 - 454 BC + 1 [because there is no zero year] = 30 AD). Jesus, the Messiah, was killed in 30 AD. The Messiah is not mentioned again in this chapter.

"And the people (Romans) of a COMING ruler (the False Prophet, who shall come in the Tribulation) shall (i.e., in the future) destroy the city (Jerusalem, as rebuilt in our days) and the sanctuary" (the Temple of the Lord, which will be rebuilt in the Tribulation).

"And its (the rebuilt Temple's) end shall be (i.e., in the future) with the flood (i.e., when the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea), and ruins are determined (Damascus will cease to be a city, Isa. 17:1), and war shall be until the end (of Armageddon). 27 And he (the False Prophet) shall confirm a covenant with the many (probably including the UN) for one week (the 7-year Tribulation). And in the middle of the week (MId-Trib) he (the False Prophet) shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease (because he will sit in the Temple 'shewing himself that he is God,' II Thess. 2:4). And on a corner of the altar will be abominations (idols) that desolate, even until the end (of Armageddon). And that which was decreed (in the past) shall (in the future) pour out on the desolator" (the False Prophet, that makes the Temple desolate). Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Alignment of Noah's Day

A writer in your Procon 1303 wrote: "SCORPIO STELLIUM - SIX PLANETS IN SCORPIO

On October 24th 2006, Planet Earth is going to bear witness to a comparatively rare alignment of planets in the Solar System. This alignment is known as a planetary cluster and occurs when 5 or more planets align in the same area of the ecliptic (apparent path of the Sun). On this occasion the planets will occupy the portion of the ecliptic in the region of 210 - 240 degrees longitude i.e., the area we designate as belonging to the sign of Scorpio.

The cluster begins on 24th October at 10.48am BST when Venus enters Scorpio, joining the Sun and Mars in a triple conjunction and Mercury, Jupiter and the Moon in a second triple conjunction. The stellium itself begins when all 5 planets (the moon will have moved on) conjoin, within 20 degrees of arc, on 30 October at 18.52 GMT.

This planetary stellium will then last for an amazing 16 days, 22 minutes and 17 seconds ending on November 16th at 17.09 GMT. The average amount of time for a cluster to persist is 1-2 days. The last time there was a cluster of 5 planets which lasted anywhere near as long was May 5th, 2000. That alignment lasted for 13 days....

Saturn is in the regal sign of Leo "

Yes, this area in the sky is known as Scorpius to the astrologers; but, those who are the astronomers know it as Libra, the sign of the balance, judgment and altar. If you go back to the days of Noah and the flood, perhaps from Sep. 27th, 2349 BC (Rosh Hashanah) to the week of Nov. 5-12 (Chesvan 10-17) and check the alignment taking place then, you will find another Libra centered cluster (37-40d spread) of all 7 objects, Sun, Moon, 5 planets that lasted for the entire month of Tishri right up to the first day of Chesvan (30 days). And, as a special bonus, the planet Neptune was located in the rear feet area of Leo known in Egyptian astrology/astronomy as the "First point in Time" or "Zep Tepi" near 77 Sigma Leonis.

Libra was the center of the cluster then and it is still the center now if you follow the true sky and not the astrologers sky.

My reply

Thanks for reminding me that because of the passage of time, the astrologers are not following the true picture in the sky. They are off by about one sign.

I have a chart from YourSky for the Hebrew Cheshvan 17, 1374 (2387 BC) (1656 AH), when I think Noah entered the Ark and the rain began. Strung out along the ecliptic in this view were Uranus, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune. Venus and Mars were in conjunction in Virgo. Jupiter was in Leo, Saturn in Gemini.

On Dec. 16, 17 and 18, 2006 (Kislev 25, 26 and 27, the 40th day of rain in Noah's day), Saturn will be approaching Regulus in Leo. Since Regulus is called the king star, that seems appropriate for the Rapture. Agape

Christ One With the Father
John 10:22-42

Christ leaves Jerusalem and goes beyond Jordan, where many believe on Him: 39, 42.

"And it was at Jerusalem the feast of dedication, and it was winter" (John 10:22). The feast of dedication was observed at Jerusalem in memorial of the purification of the Temple after it had been polluted by the idolatries of Antiochus Epiphanes. Proof of this is to be found in the fact that we are here told the time was "winter." Therefore the "feast" here mentioned could not be in remembrance of the dedication of Solomon’s temple, for this temple had been dedicated at harvest-time (1 Kings 8:2); nor was it to celebrate the building of Nehemiah’s temple, for that had been dedicated in the spring-time (Ezra 6:15, 16). The "feast" here referred to must be that which had been instituted by Judas Maccabaeus, on his having purified the temple after the pollution of it by Antiochus, about 165 B. C. This "feast" was celebrated every year for eight successive days in the month of December (1 Maccabees 4:52, 59), and is mentioned by Josephus (Antiq. 12:7, etc.). Thus the words, "and it was winter" enable us to identify this feast.

The Undying Flame: A Portrait of Christ in Hanukkah

By Steven Charles Ger

After three years of Jewish guerilla warfare, victory was achieved...(i.e., by the Maccabees). On the 25 of Kislev, 164 BC, exactly three years from Antiochus’ abomination of desolation, the Maccabbees triumphantly entered the defiled and half-demolished Temple. They then began the process of rededication.

My thoughts on the possibility of the Rapture taking place during the first three days of the Feast of the Dedication, Dec. 16, 17 and 18 in 2006

I Kings 8:2 indicates that the time of the dedication of Solomon's Temple was Tishri/Ethanim 1, the Feast of Trumpets. Ezra 6:15,19 indicates that the dedication of Nehemiah's Temple was at Passover, Nisan 14. In the days of the Maccabees, between Tishri, in the autumn, and Nisan, in the spring, was the rededication of the Temple on Hannukah, Kislev 25, in the winter. Hannukah lasts 8 days because the oil of one day miraculously lasted 8 days, and 8 is the number of new beginning. The Rapture will mark a new beginning for us.

In Antiquities. XII. 6,7, Josephus tells us that the Temple was dedicated on Appelleus (Kislev) 25, THREE YEARS TO THE DAY after the temple was desecrated by Antiochus. He said, "And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it LIGHTS. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival."

1 Maccabees 4:52-59 (NRSV) says, “Early in the morning on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, which is the month of Chislev. . . they rose and offered sacrifice, as the law directs, on the new altar of burnt offering that they had built. AT THE VERY SEASON AND ON THE VERY DAY THAT THE GENTILES HAD PROFANED IT, IT WAS DEDICATED with songs and harps and lutes and cymbals...Then Judas [Maccabee] and his brothers and all the assembly of Israel determined that every year at that season the days of dedication of the altar should be observed with joy and gladness for eight days”.

"I am the Light of the world; he that follows Me, in no wise shall walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12 - from the Greek text).

Since the liberty beyond their hopes appeared on the same day three years later, the exact date for "Lights" must be important. It now seems possible that "liberty beyond our hopes" will come to us, the wise virgins with lamps burning brightly, on Kislev 25, the Feast of Dedication, Hannukah.

John 10:22,23 says, "And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch."

We are the sheep of the good shepherd's pasture. It was at that same Feast of Dedication/Lights that Jesus said, "My sheep HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:22,27). When we hear the voice of Jesus, it will say, "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1). That's the Rapture. Will his sheep hear Jesus' voice on the Feast of Lights? It seems likely. Jesus said, "I am the light of the world; he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life" (John 8:12). It would be in character for him to give us the "light of life" on the Festival of Lights.

In John 2:19, Jesus said, "destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." I wonder if Jesus will raise up the temple of the Holy Spirit in three days--Kislev 25, 26 and 27? The 27th was the 40th day of rain in Noah's day. By that time the Ark had floated free of the ground. All in the Ark were married, suggesting the Bride of Christ.

In John 2:19-21, "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body." We are called the Body of Christ. 1 Cor. 12:27 says, "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."

I wonder if the 46 years ties in some way in our days. Forty-six years after the Sign of the End of the Age, the Six-Day War of 1967, is 2013. Subtracting for the 7-year Tribulation brings us back to 2006.

In John 10:16, Jesus said, "And other sheep (the Tribulation saints) I have, which are not of this fold (those gathered at the First-Trump Rapture of I Thess. 4:16,17): them also I must bring, and THEY SHALL HEAR MY VOICE (i.e., at the Last-Trump Rapture of I Cor. 15:51,52); and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

Jer. 8:20 says, "The summer is past, the harvest is ended, and we are not saved." Could this imply that the Pre-Trib Rapture hasn't taken place by Tabernacles? It isn't talking about the Pre-Wrath Rapture. That is on the Feast of Trumpets.

Noah died in 2006 AH (1656 + 350 = 2006). What likely dates follow Tabernacles in 2006? Cheshvan 17, when it began to rain in Noah's day, Hanukkah, beginning Saturday (from Shabbat, the 7th day, and Shabbatai Saturn, represented by the 7th lamp on the candlestick) Kislev 25, and Kislev 27, when the rain stopped and the Ark floated on the face of the waters. Couldn't the Rapture take place on Kislev 25, 26 and 27? Wouldn't we float on the face of the waters in the clouds when we meet Jesus?

Remember what Haggai 2:19 says about blessing us after Kislev 24.

Incoming e-mail, Re: Saturn

Would be even better if the author were a Christian! Best wishes to you and God's Blessing -- hope you and Ed are OK. We'll be leaving soon.

My reply

We're ok except that Ed is holding way too much water. He has to be on a salt-free diet now.

Thanks for the interesting article on the Saturn theory. However, I think the sometimes astonishing similarity in beliefs of widely separated people stems from their common denominator, Satan's guiding influence.

I read Velikovski years ago. One thing he was right about; Venus is hot. Why it is hot is another story.

I think a lot of the answers to why Mars is scarred badly on one side, why her water is missing, and why the ground is peppered with loose rocks lying on top of the surface, will come when more astronomers realize that the planet Rahab blew up. Not only was the Asteroid Belt formed, but chunks of rock hit Mars, Earth, the Moon, and Venus. Some pieces were thrown out into cometary orbits among all the planets.

Earth's outer atmosphere is pelted with water comets every day. Did that water originally come from Mars and Rahab? There is a good chance that it did. Agape

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Updated 11-11-06