Pro and Con 1305

Posted 11-21-06


The only planet visible at midnight on Dec. 16, 17 and 18 (the first three days of Hannukah) will be Saturn. The first day of Hannukah is Saturday (Saturn's day). It is also Shabbat (the Sabbath), and Saturn is Shabbatai.

In "Beautiful Stranger, Saturn's Mysteries Come to Light" in the December National Geographic, it says, "In images from Cassini's infrared camera, the heat rising from deep in the atmosphere sets the planet AGLOW. "We're seeing BACKLIT CLOUDS," Baines says, "We can watch the weather day and night. It's a revelation."

It's wonderful to read that. Compare it with Revelation 21:23, which says of the heavenly New Jerusalem, "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

"Saturn's Light from Within"

Sept 13, 2006...This false-color image of Saturn shows ring shadows running across the upper portion of the planet, and sunlight illuminating the lower portion of the planet.

The upper area, in the ring shadow, would be black in visible light but glows red in infrared because Saturn is warm inside. This light shines out through the clouds, giving scientists a look at some of Saturn's interesting atmospheric structure....

Chinese Lantern Technique Helps Track Clouds At Saturn

by Staff Writers Pasadena CA (SPX) Oct 06, 2006 ...Several recent images obtained by Cassini's visual and infrared mapping spectrometer were combined in a way that highlights the deep clouds in silhouette against the background radiation of heat generated by Saturn's interior. This literally lights the planet from the inside, like a lantern....

Iranian paper: Great war to wipe out Israel coming,2506,L-3328416,00.html

..."Great war not far off'

It continued: "Just as in one 33-day war more than 50 percent of Israel was destroyed, and the hope of its supporters for the continued life of this regime was broken, it is likely that in the next battle, the second half will also collapse."

"On that day... Jordan will not be able to prevent the Jordanian Islamists from operating through the long Jordan-Palestine border, and the millions of Egyptian Islamists... will not let the Sinai-Israel border remain quiet, and the Syrian Golan Heights will not remain as a (mere) observer of the battle. That day is not so far off."...

The nation of Muslims must prepare for the great war, so as to completely wipe out the Zionist regime, and remove this cancerous growth....

"Preparations for the Great War."

The Resalat newspaper struck a similarly bellicose tone with an editorial entitled "Preparations for the Great War."

"The great war is ahead of us, (and will break out) perhaps tomorrow, or in another few days, or in a few months, or even in a few Years... Israel must collapse," the newspaper said.

My reply

It is too bad that they don't know what the Bible indicates. The day that Gog's army attacks Israel will be Doomsday for the attackers.

Eze 38:18-23 (LITV) says, "And it shall be on that day (Day of God's Wrath), when Gog comes against the land of Israel, declares the Lord Jehovah, My fury shall come up in My face. And in My jealousy, in the fire of My wrath, I have spoken. Surely, in that day there shall be a great quaking in the land of Israel (the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea). And the fish of the sea, and the birds of the heavens, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men on the face of the earth, shall quake at My face (the Sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the sky). And the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. And I shall call a sword against him on all My mountains, declares the Lord Jehovah. Each man's sword shall be against his brother. And I will judge him with a plague and with blood, and an overflowing shower, and hailstones. I will rain fire and brimstone on him, and on his bands, and on the many peoples who are with him. And I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself. And I will be known in the EYES of the many nations, and they shall know that I am Jehovah."

Eze 39:1-4 (LITV) continues with, "And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog and say, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. And I will turn you back and lead you on. And I will bring you up from the recesses of the north, and will bring you on the mountains of Israel. And I will strike your bow out of your left hand, and I will cause your arrows to fall out of your right hand. You shall fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your bands, and the people with you."

My reply to "the timing of the rapture & the ministry of the 2 witnesses" on Five Doves site (the original is omitted here)

> > Overall, I believe that most of Revelation is written in chronological order & that being the case, was curious why the ministry of the 2 witnesses was not even mentioned till chapter 11.

Overall, Revelation does progress in chronological order, but there are parenthetic sections. Three of these are between the 6th and 7th seals, between the 6th and 7th trumpets, and between the 6th and 7th vials. In any parenthetic section, we have to look for match marks to see where they belong in the overall scheme.

Chapter 11:1-13 is inserted between the 6th and 7th trumpets. Starting with verse 14, the rest of the chapter is about what happens at the 7th trumpet. That part is introduced in 10:7, which says, "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Therefore, Rev. 11:14-19 takes place at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation, the last half of the Tribulation. It is when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8 and 10 impact Earth. At that time, the worldwide earthquake will cause every wall to fall (Eze. 38:20).

Rev. 11:1-13 takes place during the first half of the Tribulation. The earthquake that strikes Jerusalem 3.5 days after Mid-Trib is severe, a tenth of the city will fall and 7000 will die, but it is local, not worldwide. Roughly speaking, because that time will be shortened, the Great Tribulation has a local earthquake after 3.5 days and a worldwide earthquake after 3.5 years.

Chapter 11:1-13 is also introduced in chapter 10. John is given a little book and told in verse 11, "Thou must prophesy again". Chapter 11 begins at the beginning of the Tribulation, as do chapters 13 and 17.

Rev. 11:7 mentions "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit. That is Satan, Mid-Trib. In Rev. 12:9, Satan is "cast out into the earth." In 17:8, he then comes up out of the earth and goes into the False Prophet, the second son of perdition, who them becomes "the tail" of Isa. 9:15. It says, "The ancient and honourable, he is the head (6th head of the great red dragon); and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail (and the 7th head).

Judas Iscariot was the first son of perdition. These two sons of perdition are the only men that Satan himself enters into.

> > if the 2 witnesses do not show up till the GREAT tribulation, then this may offer yet more reason as to why we may possibly be gathered together yet this very year!

We may be caught up at Hannukah--this year. It follows Kislev 24, after which the Lord will bless a certain group (see Haggai 2:18,19). I believe that Jesus will bring the two witnesses, Moses and Elijah, with him at the Rapture. They will be left to prophesy during the next 3.5 years.

I think Rev. 11:1-3 starts off at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. John is told to "Rise" as if floating up to Heaven in the Rapture. He is to "measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein." The church is the temple of the Holy Spirit, God's building (I Cor. 3:9). After the Rapture, the holy city of Jerusalem will be tread under foot by Gentiles.

It looks like the last 40 days preceding the Rapture are like the 40 days of rain in Noah's day. This is contrasted by the lack of rain in the first half of the Tribulation. Rev. 11:6 says of the two witnesses, "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy".

> > Okay, what first struck me is that the world is going to SEE their resurrection and rapture!!

The Rapture will also be seen by many. Psa. 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (as Jeremiah was pulled up out of the miry pit), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven, i.e., Saturn), and established my goings (at the Rapture). And he hath put a new song (sung in Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it (i.e., the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD. "

> > Now, Rev. 11:10 speaks of people the world over CELEBRATING their “sick joy” of the death of the 2 witnesses – they "make merry" and even send gifts to each other.

I could see the Palestinians making merry and giving gifts to one another when the two witnesses are killed. They have given out candy and danced in the streets over much less than that. The merry-making could easily spread around the world, because it is after the Rapture. As they will be glad to be rid of many Christians, they will be glad to be rid of God's two witnesses.

Their merry-making will be short-lived, however, because an earthquake at Jerusalem will kill 7000. Haven't you noticed that already, when things are said or done against Israel, terrible acts of God strike Earth somewhere? In Rev. 11:13, we find that the "remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." At the end of 3.5 days, unbelievers will get a little taste of what will come at the end of that 3.5 years.

> > And while I'm not interested in debating this necessarily ~ cause the bold faced truth is, they ARE going to be here for half the period of Jacob's trouble, regardless of which half, simply because the Bible says they are!!

I think Jacob's trouble will be just one long day. It will be Jesus' Long Day. Jesus is similar to Joshua in Hebrew. Joshua's Long Day was the forerunner of the Day of the Lord that will begin the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Daniel 12:1,2 shows that the time of trouble is just one day. It says, "And at that time (when the False Prophet will be deposed, 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. "

This will be the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints as well as the time when the two asteroids of Rev. 8:8 and 10 will impact Earth. No other day will be like this single day--ever. Jer 30:7 says of that one day, "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it."

> > It’s IMO that the bowl judgments will all be placed during an approximate span of the last couple of weeks of the tribulation.

I think the bowl/vial judgments will be spread over the 7 months of Eze. 39:12,13, when Israelites will be burying of the dead to cleanse the land for the glorious return of Jesus Christ, the Messiah. The Day of God's Wrath will be on the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1. Christ's return will be on the following Nisan 1 in a Hebrew Leap Year. That will be the first day of the Hebrew Regnal Year. Jesus will return on the same day all the other Hebrew Kings officially took office.

The trumpet judgments are immediate effects of the asteroid impacts. The vials of wrath are the effects over a longer space of time. For instance, In Rev. 8:9, the "third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died." In Rev. 16:3, "every living soul died in the sea." Agape

Hamas Accepts Peace Conference Proposal

By SALAH NASRAWI AP 11-12-06 CAIRO, Egypt - The Hamas-led Palestinian government agreed Sunday to an international peace conference with Israel after the Arab League - angered by Israel's military offensive in Gaza - voted to end a financial blockade on the Palestinians....

Incoming e-mail, Re: You really should read this out the MT


Shalom Marilyn, Thank you for your kind and prompt response to my earlier email concern.

Please do NOT think that I am in any way trying to attack the MT or the LXX, I can assure you that I am NOT. These transliterated/translated TEXTS are all we have as Biblical theologians and as those who dearly LOVE God Yahweh and our Lord Yeshua Jesus. All of the ORIGINALLY INSPIRED Words/Texts of God have been lost to time.

Going forward, regarding the MT transliterations, I must ask a logical question, ‘When was the last time that God or His Holy Spirit ever spoke to you, me or anyone else and paused to make sure that we/they had added the proper syntax vowels to each dictated Word?” God transmits His Divine Word in a particular language and it is up to the individual receiver(s) of that message to use their complete existing language word definitions and skills to determine what God or His Holy Spirit had/has actually said.

To this end, herein lies the danger posed by the Masoretic Jews in their misguided attempts to help God as Sarah did, to publish His Divine Word. They took upon themselves the self-imposed mission and mandate declaring that they possessed the mind of God and knew what He literally wanted to say in relation to His Divine Scriptures. However, their TRANSLITREATIONS of God’s Words were in relation to their own observed opinions in respect to former ‘UNMARKED’ (no vowels) Texts/Transcripts. What is the proof of this?

I suggest that there is NOT a human(s) that has ever lived, other than Jesus Christ Himself, whom had/has the COMPLETE mind of God. Therefore, a full and complete ACCURACTE transliteration of God’s PERFECT Word by human(s) endeavor(s) is IMPOSSIBLE. The terms transliteration/translation have by design inherent within them the unavoidable element of errancy.

Throughout the Hebrew Lexicon there is evidenced an enormity of words that were NEWLY generated by the Masoretes from their originals, produced by the addition of vowels. Meanwhile, these words in many cases either echo the same meaning as its sister derived word or present a meaning that is all together different from its sister word – i.e. ‘am/’im each of which according to Strong’s Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon have different meanings. (see examples below)

`am am - from '`amam' (6004); a people (as a congregated unit); specifically, a tribe (as those of Israel); hence (collectively) troops or attendants; figuratively, a flock:--folk, men, nation, people.

`im eem - from '`amam' (6004); adverb or preposition, with (i.e. in conjunction with), in varied applications; specifically, equally with; often with prepositional prefix (and then usually unrepresented in English):--accompanying, against, and, as (X long as), before, beside, by (reason of), for all, from (among, between), in, like, more than, of, (un-)to, with(-al).

However, it must be noted that the original Hebrew word prior to the addition of the Masorete vowels consisted of ALL the available meanings of their subsequent interpretations/derivations just as God had predetermined. Nevertheless, in the alleged infinite wisdom of the Masoretes, they feeling they knew the will and mind of God, self determined to LIMIT by DIVISION the total definitions of what each of the original and subsequent derived Hebrew words could possibly mean and what we as the reader could actually think in respect. Therefore, by de-facto means, the Masoretes formed our opinions for us based upon their own opinions and the vowel RESTRICTIONS they placed upon the language.

As such, when was the last time you or I read a Scripture and it realistically meant something other than what we actually read? Therefore, how could they have possibly known what God had originally meant in His Perfect Word and Perfect Will?

Therefore, the only way to arrive at ‘Inerrant’ Masoretic Texts is to grant ABSOLUTE faith and confidence in the work of the Masoretes.

The VERY passage I have been discussing is a GREAT example of what MT vowels did to the efforts of Biblical transliteration.

Meanwhile, we have arrived at Two grammatically legitimate transliterations of Daniel 9:26 using MT vowels interpretation/application of the Hebrew word ?? into its two derived interpretations ‘am/im’.

1. ...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...

2. ...and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming...

Thus, if we should implement the MT to its absolute then passage # One transliteration would apply without ever the opportunity for passage # two – ‘am - key transliterated word ‘people’.

However, if we view the MT as possibly errant then passage # Two transliteration by emendation would apply – ‘im - key transliterated word ‘with’.

Herein lies the TRUTH – what if in the infinite Wisdom of God, He did indeed intend for the Messiah to be the ‘He’ of Daniel 9:27 – because of MT vowels application this transliteration could NEVER be possible. As such, the Masorete INTERPRETATIONS (opinions) have LIMITED us to what we as Biblical Hebrew transliterators can think regarding particular words of Hebrew Texts. They developed NEW words with New meanings being derived from the Original Hebrew Wording.... Until His Trumpet Sounds

My reply

We can't build a doctrine on something like vowel points. We have to determine what the big picture looks like, and what other scriptures say. We have to let the Bible interpret itself.

Let's read Dan. 9:26,27 in Green's Interlinear. It says, "And after sixty-two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but nothing is His." That took place in 30 AD. Words in brackets are mine.

"And the people [Romans] of A COMING PRINCE shall destroy the city and the sanctuary," That took place in 70 AD.

"And the end of it (shall be) with the flood," This will take place on the Day of the LORD, the Day of God's Wrath, the day the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 hits the Mediterranean Sea.

"and ruins are determined [every wall will fall, Eze. 38:20; Damascus will cease to be a city, Isa. 17:1], to the end (shall) (be) war." It is talking about the last war, Armageddon. It takes place after Jesus returns. It is Satan's last ditch stand. There are 7 Hebrew months between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13).

"And HE [the coming prince, the pronoun referring back to the last one mentioned previously] shall confirm a covenant with the many (for) one week." This is the Tribulation, one week of years.

"And in the middle of the week HE [the coming prince] shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease [when he desecrates the Temple Mid-Trib, Mt. 24:15; II Thess. 2:4], and on wings as a desolator, abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator" [i.e., upon the Satan-possessed False Prophet, the son of perdition].

The people of a coming prince destroyed the city and sanctuary in 70 AD. Those people were Romans led by Titus. Since Yahshua/Jesus was not Roman, he can't be the man designated as "A COMING PRINCE ." After Jesus was crucified, this prince was still coming in the future.

Let's also read Dan. 26, 27 in the Tanach, Stone Edition. I get the same meaning when I read it.

It says, "Then, after the sixty-two septets, the anointed one will be cut off and will exist no longer; the people of the prince will come will destroy the city and the Sanctuary; but his end will be [to be swept away as] in a flood. Then, until the end of the war desolation is decreed. He will forge a strong covenant with the great ones for one septet; but for half of that septet he will abolish sacrifice and meal-offering, and the mute abominations will be upon soaring heights, until extermination as decreed will pour down upon the mute [abomination]."

The Tribulation is the 5th cycle of dicipline. Lev. 26:13, 27,28 says, "I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt...And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins."

Seven "times" is seven years. Three and a half years are equal to "a time, times, and an half" in Dan. 12:7. The same space of time is "a time and times and the dividing of time" in Dan. 7:25.

At the end of this 3.5-year period, "the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his (the False Prophet's) dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end" (Dan. 8:26). The end will come 7 months later (Eze. 39:12,13), when Christ returns and Armageddon is fought, but Christ will be sitting on the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven when the False Prophet is deposed on the Day of God's Wrath.

On the Day of the Lord, which is also the Day of God's Wrath, Christ will begin to reign in Heaven. Rev. 11:15-19 (KJV) tells us about that day.

It says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices IN HEAVEN, saying, The kingdoms of this world are (present tense, i.e., that same day) become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he (the LORD of hosts, the redeemer, Isa. 44:6) shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats (thrones, Rev. 4:4), fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art (on the Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Wrath), and wast (at the First Advent), and ART TO COME (in the future, at the Second Advent, which is 7 months after the Day of God's Wrath, Eze. 38:20; 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (i.e., at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven), and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND SHOULDEST DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."

At the Judgment Seat of Christ, on the first day of Christ's millennial reign, all the saints will be getting their rewards in Heaven for their belief at the same time the unbelievers on Earth will be getting their just rewards for their unbelief.

Hebrews 12:22-25 says, "But YE ARE COME UNTO mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And TO JESUS the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven".

The False Prophet will reign during the Great Tribulation. He will be the 7th head of the great red dragon. In Rev. 17, we find out that there are 5 heads that are past history on the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Those 5 are the rulers of Babel, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece and Imperial Rome.

Jesus is the Lord of lords, and King of kings. On the day of the Rapture, "they that ARE WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14). On this Pre-Trib Rapture Day, the 10 kings "have received no kingdom as yet" (Rev. 17:12).

At the time of this Rapture, the 5th head "is" in power (Rev. 17:10). Since Pontifex Maximus is "the name of blasphemy" (Rev. 13:1) that has been on all the previous heads, starting with Nimrod at the Tower of Babel, the 6th head could be the Pontifex Maximus in power at the time of the Rapture. Whoever he is, he will be the 6th head of the great red dragon in power during the first half of the Tribulation. The False Prophet, the 7th head, will be in power during the last half, the Great Tribulation.

The False Prophet will not only be the 7th head, he will be the tail of the great red dragon, because Satan will enter into him. Rev. 17:8 says, "The beast that thou sawest (the great red dragon, i.e., Satan) was (in Judas Iscariot, the 1st son of perdition), and is not (in man now), and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and GO INTO PERDITION" (the False Prophet, the last son of perdition).

Isa. 9:15 says, "The ancient and honourable (maybe the Pope), he is the head (the 6th head); and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail" (the 7th head and the tail of the great red dragon).

Satan goes into the bottomless pit Mid-Trib. Rev. 12:7-9 says, "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out INTO the earth". He comes up out of the bottomless pit Mid-Trib and goes into the False Prophet.

Since the Second Coming is still 7 months future on the Day of God's Wrath, there is no way that Christ could be the COMING PRINCE of Dan. 9:27 that will be deposed on the Day of God's Wrath.

Christ is to return in glory. Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And SEVEN MONTHS (Tishri, Cheshvan, Kislev, Teveth, Shevat, Adar I and Adar II in a Hebrew Leap Year) shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified" (i.e., at the future Second Advent on Nisan 1, the first day of the Hebrew Regnal Year).

Psalm 102:16 says, "When the LORD shall build up Zion, HE SHALL APPEAR IN HIS GLORY. " That's the Second Advent on Nisan 1, the date that all the Hebrew kings were inaugurated. not the Day of Destruction, the Day of the Lord, on the previous Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, the first day of the Hebrew Civil Year.

Joel 1:15,16 says, "Alas for the day! for THE DAY OF THE LORDis at hand, and AS A DESTRUCTION FROM THE ALMIGHTY SHALL IT COME."

Joel 2:1-3 tells us more about what will happen on the Day of Destruction. It says, "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm (Gog's army is attacking Israel) in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A DAY OF DARKNESS and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."

Zech. 6:13 says, "Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the GLORY, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both."

Mt. 16:27 says, "For the Son of man shall come in the GLORY of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." This is the Judgment of the Nations, also known as the judgment of the sheep and goats.

Mt. 25:31 says, "When the Son of man shall come in his GLORY , and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY".

Luke 9:26 says, "For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own GLORY, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." Shalom and agape

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