Pro and Con 1310

Posted 12-31-06

The date of this 7.1 quake got my attention, because it is Dec. 26, the date of the huge tsunami in 2004. Truly, "the sea and the waves (are) roaring" (Luke 21:25)

Internet Services in Asia May Take 2 Weeks to Return
By Tim Culpan and Andrea Tan

Dec. 28 (Bloomberg) - Internet and phone companies in Asia may take at least two weeks to restore services as they struggle to fix undersea cables damaged by earthquakes off Taiwan....

At least six undersea cables which pass through Taiwan are broken and a seventh is damaged, said Au Man-ho, director general of Hong Kong's Office of Telecommunications Authority. Six of 10 international cables connecting Korea were affected...

Companies from Kuwait Finance House, the Persian Gulf's largest Islamic investment bank, to Nippon Yusen K.K., Japan's biggest shipping line, are suffering from the loss of online services after a 7.1 magnitude quake struck southern Taiwan on Dec. 26....

The quake which shook Taiwan Dec. 26 was the largest in the area for 100 years, and was one of 11 temblors in that area over a 24-hour period...

The tremors came on the second anniversary of the 2004 Asian tsunami, when a magnitude 9.1 earthquake off Sumatra unleashed waves that destroyed coastal villages from Indonesia to Sri Lanka, killing more than 220,000 people....

My reply to a letter on the Five Doves site

Re: FMichael deKruif (30 Dec 2006); fast of The Tenth of Tevet

> > Another curious prophecy that fits right in with my belief that the "woman in the wilderness" is in fact the Church body of believers, is this from Revelation 12:13 & 14;
> > 13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
> > 14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
> > Is this a picture of the rapture? I believe so.

It is hard to be sure what the man child represents. Since Rev. 12:7-9 is Mid-Trib, I once thought that the man child that was caught up to God could represent God's two witnesses. They are killed Mid-Trib, resurrected and caught up to God after 3 1/2 days (Rev. 11:9).

However, I have changed my mind. Remember God's picture book given mankind before the Bible was written down? The Gospel in the Stars is told by the Zodiac and other constellations in the heavens. God named the stars (Psa. 147:4). Their names help tell the story of Jesus Christ.

Virgo is the first constellation telling the story of Jesus. Leo is the last. Jesus was born of a virgin, was sacrificed for us, was resurrected, and ascended to Heaven. He is also the Lion of the tribe of Judah that will return as the King of kings and Lord of lords.

I finally accepted that Jesus is the man child born of a virgin in Rev. 12:5. Why? The two witnesses were not born of a virgin. The Church was not born of a virgin. Nothing else even comes close to fitting. The man child has to be born of a virgin, so it is Jesus. Rev. 12:5 says, "And she (the virgin of Israel) brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, and her child was caught up (harpazo, as in I Thess. 4:17) unto God, and to his throne."

Rev. 12:1,2 says, "there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon (epi, on, over, or above) her head a crown of twelve stars: (In the sky, Corona Borealis is above Virgo's head). And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered." The only thing in the heavens that fits this is the constellation Virgo. When Virgo, the virgin, is clothed with the Sun and the new crescent Moon is under her feet, the Hebrew date is Tishri 1, Jesus' birthday. The picture given us is perfect if we don't try to read more into it than is there.

Could this picture also represent the Rapture? Maybe. The Greek harpazo, translated caught up is used in both I Thess. 4:17 and Rev. 12:5. Since Jesus, the Head of the Body of Christ, was born on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, the Body of Christ," might also be born an Tishri 1. The next Tishri 1 will be Sept. 13, 2007, but we need more clues than this to be sure.

The woman in Rev. 12:6 is more than the virgin Mary of 5 BC. I think the symbol expands here to represent the Israelites of today that "have the testimony of Jesus Christ." They are "the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" of v. 17.

Rev. 6:6,14-17 says, "And the woman (i.e.,Israelites that believe in Yeshua/Jesus) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place (i.e., Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (i.e., during the last half of the 7-year Tribulation)...And to the woman (Israelites that believe in Yeshua/Jesus) were given two wings of a great eagle (maybe planes from the USA, whose symbol is an eagle), that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place (Petra), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (i.e., during the 3.5-year Great Tribulation), from the face of the serpent (Satan, who will be cast out of Heaven Mid-Trib;12:7-9). And the serpent cast out of his mouth WATER AS A FLOOD after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon (Satan) was wroth with the woman (i.e.,Jewish believers), and went to make war with THE REMNANT of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST."

Flash floods are a very real problem at Petra. Below are some websites mentioning floods and water management.

The Treasury at Petra

"Proposed park rangers to assist tourists, protect Petra"
"Floods in Petra are also a hazard to tourists and locals. During the 1960s, a group of French tourists was trapped and killed during a flash flood"
The Water Supply and Distribution System of the Nabataean City of Petra (Jordan), 300 BC–AD 300
By Charles R. Ortloff

"The urban core of Petra lies in a valley surrounded by high mountainous terrain. Seasonal rainfall runoff passes into the valley through many canyon streambeds (wadis) and drains out primarily through the Wadi Siyagh. Early phases of urban Petra relied upon open channel water delivery from the Ain Mousa spring outside the city along a direct path through the Siq. The water channel traversed the entire length of the city before exiting into Wadi Siyagh. Placement of this system required diversion of the intermittent Wadi Mousa River, that (previously) passed through the Siq, by means of dam and tunnel construction."
Petra Water Works

Throughout the city of Petra are hundreds of underground water cisterns. Every possible drop of rainwater, as well as the water piped into the city was stored and used later.
"Petra: the Walk In

"The road will eventually lead you to the dam. This dam was built across the entrance to the siq, to keep water from rushing through the crack in the mountain and destroying the city of Petra. The Nabataeans cleverly bore a tunnel through the rock to divert the water into another valley. After Petra was deserted, the dam crumbled and flash floods raged through the siq for many centuries, destroying much of Petra's city center. "

Those visiting Petra in the winter should know that in rain or snow, access to Petra is not allowed. There have been a number of flash floods lately, ...
"Petra, an Eroding Ancient City"

The Nabataeans prevented floods from destroying the city through a damming system that diverted water from the wadi. They also lined the Siq — a gorge or narrow chasm that leads from the outside desert to the entrance of the old city and one of Petra’s largest monuments, known as the Treasury — with water channels. This system of channels and dams controlled water flow and erosion, and provided irrigation water to the settlement.

In addition to archeological investigations, satellite imagery is revealing just how sophisticated the Nabataeans were “in terms of sculpting the ground and the rock face to facilitate the natural flow of rainwater. That’s the way they could keep erosion minimized,” Markoe says. “It’s the breakdown of that system over the past centuries that is contributing to the environmental hazard.” Sand deposits and rocks carried by flash flooding now bury the courtyard and steps that once led up to the imposing facade of the Treasury, Markoe says — piled more than 20 feet thick, “dramatic evidence of how quickly flash flooding can devastate the site,” he says.
Ancient and Modern Watershed Management in Petra

"One of the most serious problems facing Petra today is the seasonal flash flooding that occasionally occurs in the area, threatening man and monument alike. These flash floods were as much a problem in antiquity as they are today, as the Nabataean's ingenious hydrological systems, designed to control the flooding, attest. The author presents the results of a survey designed to document some of the dams built by the Nabataeans and a computer-based modeling of the watersheds with a view to offering a possible modern solution to this ancient problem."
> > December 31st is the Fast of Teves for the Jewish religion. It is the celebration of the day Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar laid seige to Jerusalem

Teveth is a possible month for the Rapture. Esther was taken into the king's house royal in the month of Teveth (Esther 2:16).

> > What I find significant is Jesus said "as in the days of Noe, so shall the days of the Son of man be."
> > Noah died 2,006 years after Adam....We know Noah was born 1,056 years after Adam ( Gen. 5:28 & 29 ). He lived 950 years ( Gen. 9:28 ) and 1056 + 950 = 2006.
> > Saturday December 31, 2006 will effectively end "the days of Noah." Keep looking up people, we could be in for an "uplifting" New Year!

Don't give up after Dec. 31st is over. Noah went into the Ark on Cheshvan 17 (Nov. 8 in 2006). It rained 40 days and 40 nights (ending Dec. 18 in 2006), then the sky cleared, but Noah stayed in the Ark one year. He stepped out on dry land on the following Cheshvan 27 (Nov. 8 in 2007). Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: two raptures

Would it be possible to list all your references pointing to two raptures along with a short explanation for each sometime in a future pro and con? You mentioned Ruth in your last pro and con 1309 and that triggered my request. I suspect this would be a long list and may take up to much of your valuable time to correlate and may not be very originative since I am sure you have covered the subject well in your many pro and cons.

My reply

I believe that there are two Raptures, one Pre-Trib (the first trump), the other Pre-Wrath (the last trump).

The first "trump of God" (the Pre-Trib Rapture), includes the wise virgins of Mt. 25:1f. I Thess. 4:15-18 says, "this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (Old English for precede) them which are asleep (the dead in Christ). For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (Michael), and with THE TRUMP OF GOD (i.e., the first trump): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP (harpazo, taken up forcefully, i.e., raptured) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

The dead in Christ are "raised in incorruption", and are promised eternal life, but their bodies are not yet immortal. The entire Body of Christ will be made immortal after being completed at the 2nd Rapture. At that time, the 144,000 Israelites will be added to the Bride of Christ group. Speaking of the entire Body of Christ, I Cor. 15:42-44 says, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION (it doesn't say they are immortal at this point): It is sown in dishonour; it is RAISED IN GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is RAISED IN POWER: It is sown a natural body; it is RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Believers are promised eternal life, but they will not actually "put on immortality" until the whole Body of Christ is complete at the "last trump" of God.

The "last trump", the last Rapture, includes the foolish virgins among the other Tribulation saints. After the Body of Christ is complete in Heaven, all members will actually be made immortal. I Cor. 15:51-53 says of the second Rapture, the last trump of God, "Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY (musterion, secret); We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE (the entire Body of Christ, including Paul and the other apostles) shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption (accomplished when one is raised from the dead), and this mortal (one that can still die) must put on immortality" (so one cannot die). Immortality is accomplished when the Body of Christ is completed, i.e., at the 2nd Rapture, the "LAST TRUMP" of God.

The secret that is revealed here is that the whole Body of Christ will be changed to the immortal state in the twinkling of an eye at the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which is at the "last trump" of God, not at the first "trump of God", the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Jesus (both God and man), the director, wrote the script for the super dramatic miracle-play he named "The Revelation of Christ" (Rev. 1:1). The setting is the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. It is as if Jesus stood on the pinnacle of the first Rapture and looked backward to tell us what was before the Rapture, looked down to tell us about the Pre-Trib Rapture, and looked forward to tell what will happen after that Rapture.

John, both narrator and scribe, was to write the script down. It was transmitted by the Angel of the Lord. In 1:19, the Lord Jesus Christ told John to "Write the THINGS WHICH THOU HAST SEEN (prior to the Pre-Trib Rapture, John had seen the"the seven churches which are in Asia"; 1:4), and the things which are (i.e., at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter" (after the Rapture).

In 4:1, John acted out the Rapture. He was told to "Come up hither." Then he was shown the "things which must be hereafter." Immediately, John and the other 23 elders were seated on thrones in Heaven. Twelve of the 24 elders are the 12 patriarchs of Israel. The other twelve elders are the 12 apostles of Israel.

We see the raptured saints caught up in the first Rapture in Heaven in 5:9. It says of the saints, "they sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book (i.e., the Title Deed of the Earth), and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION." These saints are made "kings and priests" (5:10).

The saints caught up to Heaven in the second Rapture "are they which CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (7:14). This group includes the 144,000 Israelites, the foolish virgins, the Laodiceans and a great multitude that can't be numbered (7:9). Of these, only the 144,000 Israelites are added to the Bride of Christ group.

Rev. 14:2-5 says of that 144,000, "I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder (i.e., the 'last trump'): and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they (the 144,000) sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders (i.e., before the 24 elders that were caught up at the first "trump of God"): and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth (i.e., at the 'last trump'). These are they which were not defiled with women; for THEY ARE VIRGINS. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

Since the saints caught up at the first trump sing a NEW SONG, and the 144,000 also sing "as it were a NEW SONG", the 144,000 are grouped with the Pre-Trib saints even though they are caught up at the "last trump" with the Tribulation saints. No other man can sing the new song. Both the Pre-Trib saints and the 144,000 are virgins who stand before the throne of God.

The 144,000 complete the group called the Bride of Christ and firstfruits. 1Co 15:22,23 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (i.e., believers) shall all be made alive. BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER (tagmati, rank): Christ THE FIRSTFRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Christ is THE FIRSTFRUIT. Rom. 11:16 says, "if THE FIRSTFRUIT be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches." Christ is also refered to as "the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept." 1Co 15:20 says, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept.

Those that have the "firstfruits of the Spirit" are called firstfruits. Rom. 8:22,23 says, "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Rom 16:5 says, "Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the FIRSTFRUITS of Achaia unto Christ." Believers are called "a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of his creatures" in James 1:18. It says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of his creatures."

In the book of Esther, the virgins are gathered twice. To me, this suggests that there are two Raptures. Esther is a type of the wise virgins gathered the first time. Esther 2:16-19 says, "So Esther was taken unto king Ahasuerus into his house royal in the tenth month, which is THE MONTH TEBETH (or Teveth), in the seventh year of his reign. And the king loved Esther (meaning hidden, secret, and star) above all the women, and she obtained grace and favour in his sight more than all the virgins; so that he set the royal crown upon her head, and made her queen instead of Vashti (meaning beautiful). Then the king made a great feast unto all his princes and his servants, even ESTHER'S FEAST; and he made a release (type of the Rapture) to the provinces, and gave gifts, according to the state of the king. And when the virgins were gathered together THE SECOND TIME, then Mordecai sat in the king's gate."

Considering Esther's feast, it seems possible that the month Teveth could be the month of the first Rapture. We will have to wait and see. Teveth runs from December 22, 2006, to January 19, 2007.

The date of the second Rapture will be the Feast of Trumpets on Tishri 1. It is on the same day as the Day of God's Wrath. Rev. 11:15-19 says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come (the Second Advent is 7 months future [Eze. 39:12,13], on Nisan 1, the first day of the Regnal Year in a Hebrew Leap Year with the 13th month); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

At this time, all believers will be in Heaven receiving their rewards. All living unbelievers will be on Earth at that time. They will be receiving the wrath of God while the believers are getting their rewards in Heaven.

Psalm 40:1-3 has to do with the two Raptures. It says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He BROUGHT ME UP also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (as Jeremiah was brought up out of the miry pit), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings (being caught up in the Raptures). And he hath put a NEW SONG in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT (the first Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD." These that see the first Rapture and trust in the Lord will be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath, but prior to the wrath of God being poured out. I think they are saved so as by fire, barely making it out before the wrath of God is poured out on unbelievers on Earth.

Isa. 57:1 says, "merciful men are taken away (i.e., raptured), none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come." Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Some re-adjusted thinking...14 Dec.2006

My computer has been down for one month {hard drive crashed} Just finished catching up on your postings. As always very,very good. Marilyn, someone e-mailed you on your last posting [12-15-06] PRO-CON 1308 [Some adjusted thinking] Based on the current climate of things ect.,ect.] Marilyn, I do feel with all respect that every one is entitled to his or her opinion, I honestly feel this person ment no disrespect. Most of us still and always will love you even win your dates are a little off. It's the good intentions of your heart we love. Marilyn , I would like to contact this person thru e-mail if possible,however there wasn't any e-mail address shown. If you still have it I would greatly appreiate if you could send it to me. I hope this message finds you and Ed well tonight.... Your Brother In Christ

My reply

> > My computer has been down for one month {hard drive crashed}

You too? Much of my time lately has been consummed by computer and DSL Local Network troubles. I am using my 7th computer, and the upgrade Windows XP 7, which at first would not let me upload to my website using Coffeecup Direct FTP. I have gotten out of some troubles by running System Restore (to restore it to a previous date when things were working ok).

> > Marilyn, I do feel with all respect that every one is entitled to his or her opinion, I honestly feel this person ment no disrespect.

I agree with you, 100 %. The Pro and Cons are about different opinions of a subject. I feel that if we discuss various options, we can come to a point where we understand verses pertaining to that subject better than before. Discussions make one think, and help us see more in certain passages than we understood before. Iron hones iron. No one person knows it all. The Bible is too complex. There are different layers of understanding and types upon types. The early history of Israel that is recorded helps us understand prophecy concerning the future. Various skits are acted out for us. I know that I learn as we go. I learn more by discussing isues with others than I could ever learn all by myself. I'm quick to change my mind if I can see that a passage means something different than what I previously thought it meant. I really do appreciate the chance to view things through other eyes....Agape

   Pro and Con 1311   Or Return   Home

Contact me for more information at:

Send me e-mail now

8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (951) 653-4110

© 1996-2006, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 12-31-06