Pro and Con 1318

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Pro and Con 1318

Posted 2-19-2007

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Sign? Nova Scorpii 2007

Nova Over Iran A bright new nova is being studied by astronomers. The officially dubbed Nova Scorpii 2007 has become so bright in recent days that it is now visible to the unaided eye. Adventurous early morning sky enthusiasts should look in dark skies toward the constellation of the Scorpion, just below Jupiter and Antares. The above image may help as a sky chart. A nova this bright occurs only every few years. Novas are caused by thermonuclear explosions casting off the outer layers of a white dwarf star....

Does "harpazo" mean "caught up"
in the Rapture in I Thess. 4:17?
Does"apostasia" mean "departing"
in the Rapture in II Thess. 2:3?

In my mind, there is no doubt that they do. The Bible actually interprets itself. Since "harpazo" was used when the Holy Spirit caught Philip up from near Gaza and transported him to Ashdod, it showed us how to take "harpazo." It is talking about the Holy Spirit catching us up in the Rapture and transporting us to another city, which in this case will be New Jerusalem.

Acts 8:26,27, 37-40 says, "And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship... Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest (be baptized). And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD CAUGHT AWAY (HARPAZO) PHILIP, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus"(Ashdod, a coastal city north of Gaza).

Philip was CAUGHT UP BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND TRANSPORTED TO ANOTHER CITY. To me, this demonstrates what "harpazo" in I Thess. 4:17 and "apostasia" in II Thess. 2:3 refer to, that catching up and departure we call the Pre-Trib Rapture, when we will be taken to another city, New Jerusalem. In II Thess. 2:5, Paul said, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" He told them about the departing in I Thess. 4:13-18.

II Th 2:1-5 (KJV) says, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (Day of the Lord in major manuscripts) is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Day of the Lord, Day of God's Wrath) shall not come, except there come a falling away (HARPAZO, DEPARTING, i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture) FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

This departing was understood by others long ago. In "The Assumption of the Virgin." a NT apocryphal work, c. 400 AD, the Greek word "APOSTASIA" was used to describe a LITERAL PHYSICAL TRANSPORTATION FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER similar to what happened to Philip. Someone understood apostasia as a departing very early.

The Liddell and Scott Lexicon has “DEPARTURE, DISAPPEARANCE” as a secondary meaning of apostasia. That sure fits the Rapture. We will depart and disappear.

A departure into space is not unprecedented. Enoch just plain disappeared. He was not for God took him. Elijah went up in a whirlwind and a chariot of fire. Enoch was a type of the first Rapture, and he was taken up before the Flood of Noah's day. Elijah was a type of the Rapture of the Tribulation saints, the Pre-Wrath Rapture, being taken up just before the wrath on the Day of God's Wrath, hence the fire and whirlwind. The Tribulation saints will be saved so as by fire.

II Thess. 2:3 (KJV) says, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (he apostasia, the departing) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Compare that with these early Bibles.

Jerome's Latin Vulgate, 405 AD
Used the Latin word "discessio", meaning departure.

Wycliffe, 1384
"That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but DEPARTYNGE AWEYE (or dissencon) SCHAL COME FIRSTE & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune".

Tyndale, 1525 or 26
"Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte THER COME A DEPARTYNGE FYRST and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion".

Coverdale, 1535
"Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte THE DEPARTYNGE COME FIRST, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion".

Geneva, 1537
"Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except THERE COME A DEPARTING FIRST, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition".

Cranmer Great Bible, 1539
"Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte THERE COME A DEPARTINGE FYRST, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion."

Beza Bible, 1565
"Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except THERE COME A DEPARTING FIRST, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition."

I'm not alone in recognizing the Rapture in II Thess. 2:3.


by William W. Combs*

Appeal to Earlier Versions
Proponents of the Rapture view have generally followed English in his appeal to early English Bibles, noting that they translated ajpostasiva in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as “departing.” English says: “William Tyndale’s version of the N.T., translated and published at Worms, c. 1526, renders hee [sic] apostasia, ‘a departynge.’ Coverdale (A.D. 1535), Cranmer (1539), and the Geneva Bible (1537) render it the same way. Beza (1565) translates apostasia departing.’”62 The implication of these appeals to the translation “departing” in earlier versions is that they give support or credence to the Rapture view since they can be understood to be REFERRING TO A SPATIAL DEPARTURE. House adds to the list of early translators, suggesting that the Wycliffe Bible of 1384 has the rendering “departynge” and that Jerome, in his Vulgate, used the “Latin word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”63 In fact, House goes so far as to say that Jerome used discessio because he specifically understood ajpostasiva to mean a spatial departure....

the idea of SPATIAL DEPARTURE is only a “secondary meaning” of the word.79 This conclusion is drawn from the Liddell and Scott lexicon, which lists the primary meaning of ajpostasiva as “defection, revolt” and gives “DEPARTURE, DISAPPEARANCE” as a secondary meaning.80...

This reference to a spatial departure is found in a NT apocryphal work entitled THE ASSUMPTION OF THE VIRGIN. In sections 31–32 we read: But the Holy Ghost said to the apostles and the mother of the Lord, “Behold, the governor has sent a captain of a thousand against you, because the Jews have made a tumult. Go out therefore from Bethlehem, and fear not; for behold, I will bring you by a cloud to Jerusalem….” The apostles therefore rose up straightaway and went out of the house, bearing the bed of their lady the mother of God, and went forward towards Jerusalem: and immediately, just as the Holy Ghost said, THEY WERE LIFTED UP BY A CLOUD AND WERE FOUND AT JERUSALEM in the house of their lady.86 Here we clearly have the description of a “rapture” of the apostles and mother of the Lord. The story continues in section 33:

But when the captain came to Bethlehem and did not find there the mother of the Lord, nor the apostles, he laid hold upon the Bethlehemites,…For the captain did not know of THE DEPARTURE of the apostles and the mother of the Lord to Jerusalem.87

This “rapture” is now described as a “departure,” the Greek word being ajpostasiva.88 HERE IS CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT AJPOSTASIVA CAN REFER TO A “RAPTURE”; however, The Assumption of the Virgin can be dated no earlier than the fifth century A.D. 89

88The Greek text is found in Constantin von Tischendorf, Apocalypses Apocryphae (reprint of 1866 ed.; Hildesheim: Georg Olms Verlagsbuchhandlung, 1966), p. 105.

Is the Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

By Thomas Ice

...Liddell and Scott’s “A Greek English Lexicon” defines apostasia first as “defection, revolt”; then secondly as “departure, or disappearance.” Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13; 1st Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2nd Timothy 2:19), from ungodly men (1st Timothy 6:5), from the Temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2nd Corinthians 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13). “IT IS WITH FULL ASSURANCE OF PROPER EXEGETICAL STUDY AND WITH COMPLETE CONFIDENCE IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGES,” CONCLUDES DANIEL DAVEY, “THAT THE WORD MEANING OF APOSTASIA IS DEFINED AS DEPARTURE.”...

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608). This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of AD 400 renders apostasia with the word discessio, meaning “departure.”... --- Re: "mother of God" Isa. 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Jesus is The mighty God, The everlasting Father, but his deity was given. It was not born of Mary.

"The modern Hebrew calendar cannot be used to calculate Biblical dates because NEW MOON DATES MAY BE IN ERROR BY UP TO FOUR DAYS"

Hebrew / Jewish Calendar

"The synodic month is the average interval between two mean conjunctions of the Sun and Moon, when these bodies are as near as possible in the sky, which is reckoned at 29 days 12 hours 44 minutes 3 1/3 seconds; a conjunction is called a MOLAD. This is also a Babylonian value. In the calendar month, however, only complete days are reckoned, the "full" month containing 30 days and the "defective" month 29 days"....

"The earliest datable source for the Hebrew calendar is the Gezer Calendar, written probably in the era of Solomon, in the late 10th century BC. The inscription indicates the length of main agricultural tasks within the cycle of 12 lunations. The calendar term here is YEREAH, which in Hebrew denotes both "moon" and "month."

"The second Hebrew term for month, HODESH, properly means the "newness" of the lunar crescent." Encyclopedia Britannica
"The Jewish-Roman wars of 66-73, 115-117, and 132-135 caused major disruptions in Jewish life, also disrupting the calendar. During the third and fourth centuries, Christian sources describe the use of eight, nineteen, and 84 year lunisolar cycles by Jews, all linked to the civil calendars used by various communities of Diaspora Jews, which were effectively isolated from Levant Jews and their calendar. Some assigned major Jewish festivals to fixed solar calendar dates, whereas others used EPACTS to specify how many days before major civil solar dates Jewish lunar months were to begin....

"The modern Hebrew calendar cannot be used to calculate Biblical dates because NEW MOON DATES MAY BE IN ERROR BY UP TO FOUR DAYS, and months may be in error by up to four months....

"When does the year begin?

"According to the Mishnah, there are four new years, in Nisan for civil purposes, Elul for certain matters connected with agriculture and the Temple, Tishri for religious purposes and Shevat for trees. The last of these is marked by a minor festival, Tu Bishvat, named after the day it occurs on, the 15th Shevat. Months are numbered from Nisan (reflecting the injunction in Exodus "This month shall be to you the beginning of months". However, the New Year is the first of Tishri, when the year number increases by 1 and the formal new year festival Rosh Hashana is celebrated. There may be an echo here of a controversy in the Talmud about whether the world was created in Tishri or Nisan; it was decided that the answer is Tishri." Complete Article and Links Wikipedia

My comments

I agree with Tishri 1 for Saturday, the day that God rested and this "kosmos" began to operate as it does today. It started at sunset Friday after Adam was created. Emphasis throughout is mine. When I was trying to pin down the date of Jesus' birth, I found out that the modern Hebrew Calendar, when extrapolated backward was off by 4 days from the sign as portrayed in YourSky. The sign is given in Rev. 12,1. It says, "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars". This sign appeared Tishri 1, which was Sept. 4, 5 BC.

Temple's location found, says Israeli archaeologist

Study of ancient cisterns pinpoints sacred site...

Patrich's (Prof. Joseph Patrich) reconstruction of Temple in 1st century A.D. overlaid on modern Temple Mount. Octagonal feature is Dome of the Rock. Diagram is oriented east up....

My comments

That position, with the back side of the Temple butted up against the rock under the Dome of the Rock, can't be correct, because that rock was in Fort Antonia.

Josephus revealed that the square Fort Antonia and the square Temple court with cloisters on all four sides were joined together along an east/west line, and that the rock was in Fort Antonia. The stairs that Paul stood on were in the northwest corner. Josephus said, "Now as to the tower of Antonia, it was situated at the corner of two cloisters of the court of the temple; of that on the WEST, and that on the NORTH; it was erected upon a ROCK of fifty cubits in height, and was on a great precipice; it was the work of king Herod".

Look at where the tops of the stairs come up from the bottom of the southern wall. I think people were very close to the Temple when they exited from those stairs.

Below is a diagram drawn by Tuvia Sagiv. His position of the Temple and its alignment with the "Great Sea" cistern seems much better to me. Water flooded the floor when openings around the perimeter were opened. Here, the aqueduct goes right to the temple. The temple is aligned with the cardinal points of the compass too. It faces due east, not southeast.

Both Strato's Tower and the defensive tower Baris Antonia were north of the Temple ("Where was the Temple of Herod? by Richley Crapo:

Housing Ministry: Mugrabi Gate construction and dig to go on

By Nadav Shragai, Haaretz Correspondent, 13/02/2007

The Jewish Quarter Development Company, which owns the land on which the Western Wall Plaza stands, on Tuesday rescinded a decision made earlier in the day to completely abandon the contentious construction work at the Mugrabi Ascent in the Old City, near the Temple Mount....

The ministry said that the construction work would continue as planned, in accordance with the law and with government approval....

Incoming email Re: Rapture with my comments interspersed and marked ***

I read somewhere that the current rapture concept you write about, this ideology began in the 1800's.

***The Preterists say that, but it is not true. In "The Incredible Rapture Coverup", Dave McPherson said that the Pre-Trib Rapture was not taught in the early church too, but that's not true, either.

***Ephraim the Syrian preached some time between 306 and 373 AD. He said, "...all Saints and the elect of the Lord are gathered together BEFORE THE TRIBULATION which is about to come and are taken to the Lord in order that they may not see at any time the confusion that overwhelms the world because of our sins."

***Do you think Ephraim had read Luke 21:34-36? I think so. It says, "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, THAT YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN."

I perceive that belief in rapture is center of your faith in our Lord.

***I believe that Jesus Christ is both God and man. That is central. He was the LORD (YHWH) of the Old Testament and is the LORD of lords of the New Testament. He is the first AND the last. Read Isaiah 44:6. Jesus Christ is both YHWH King of Israel and YHWH of hosts, the Redeemer. It says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first (YHWH King of Israel), and I am the last (YHWH of hosts, the Redeemer, the LORD Jesus Christ); and beside me there is no God."

***II Cor. 5:19 tells us plainly that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself."

***The LORD of hosts, the Redeemer, is the one that gave Moses the Ten Commandments. Isa 48:16-18 says, "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now (1) the Lord GOD, and (2) his Spirit, hath sent (3) me. Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea".

***Mt. 28:19 says, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".

***John 8:19-27 says, "Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also....Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM FROM ABOVE: ye are of this world; I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for IF YE BELIEVE NOT THAT I AM HE, YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father."

***In John 10:30, Jesus said, "I and my Father are one."

***The Son of God is the Creator. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word (i.e., the Son of God), and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

***John 1:14 says, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

***The Son of God deals with mankind. John 1:18 says, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." The Angel of the LORD is the Son of God. When we see God in Heaven, we will still see him in the face of Jesus Christ. Rev 22:3-5 says, "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne (one throne) OF GOD AND OF THE LAMB shall be in it; and his (one person's) servants shall serve him (one person): And they shall see his face (one face); and his name (one name) shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

***I believe that the Bible is God-breathed. Therefore, when it speaks of the catching up that we call the Rapture, I believe it will happen, and it will take place exactly as described.

Is the rapture also the center for your faith in the scripture and Gospel?

***I believe everything I read in the Bible. I believe that it is God breathed, about the Rapture and everything else.

Do you perceive the rapture as the most important quote by God.

***I think John 3:16 is tops. It says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." What could be more important than that? Thank you, LORD for giving us a way to be saved. In Jesus' name, Amen.

Do you believe that the soul can be separated from the body?

***Yes. If a believer dies, his spirit and soul go to Heaven to await the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, when he will get his resurrection body. I Cor 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

We think about God and read His Word. Explain the thought process. Everyday thoughts to include those thoughts of God.''

***I just trust him, ask his guidance, and go by II Tim. 2:15's "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Do you believe everything we see is an illusion (so to speak). In regards to the concept of Creation.


Incoming e-mail, Re: Rapture

You do a lot of work to answer questions or explain a point. In the wordily world people have a staff to do what you do. So your work is more than appreciated.

I'm not a rapture watcher. I'd rather do good for fellow humans (souls). And try not to sin. But I'm busy with my career. But i inject thoughts of our Lord a lot during the day. Especially forgive your enemies. Pray for the sick. Help your neighbor or stranger. I'm motivated to help others from love of Jesus.

Let the rapture come while I'm busy helping others.

One unusual trait about true believer rapturists,,, I noticed,,, especially from posting on 5 Doves; they kind of say,,, "I dont care" "I'm going to be caught up in the rapture".

The bombing of Iran isnt far off. This will be the first time since WW2 since nukes were used. The US Navy is in charge of this military action. WW3 is well on the way.

Here's an idea of the army we are fighting. 1 Billion Muslims are out there.
One percent of them is an army planning to take over the world.
This one percent has rank, weapons etc.
It'll be at least thirty years before we see a change within them.

The United States will remain strong.
If you recall or didnt know,,,, back in the 1800s this country was consecrated to God.

My reply

Thanks for your kind words....

2 Sam 7:23 says of a united nation, "And what one (echad, 'properly united'; Strong's) nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible." I take it that it refers to the United States. Agape

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