Pro and Con 1320

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Pro and Con 1320

Posted 2-23-07

Incoming e-mail, Re: Phased Rapture - Firstfruits separation and main Harvest Rapture

I read a little bit of your website and I am pleased to know and encouraged that you are looking for the Lords’ soon return. I am doing the same as the Bible commands us to watch.

If all Christians were going to be raptured (caught up) at the same time (many Christians believe there is only one rapture) then the Lord himself would not have commanded us to PRAY ALWAYS that we would be accounted worthy to escape the soon approaching Tribulation (first 3 ½ years of the 7-year tribulation).

(Dan 7:25 KJV) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. It is clear in this passage that the saints (Christians who are not walking in the Spirit, living an unfaithful Christian life, and not watching for the Lord’s return) will be turned over to antichrist to be persecuted for a time, a times, and a diving of a time (3 ½ years). In the second half of the tribulation (42 months or 3 ½ years=The Day of the Lord) antichrist will (Rev 13:4 KJV) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? (Rev 13:5 KJV) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.) turn against the Jews since all of the rest of Christians will be taken in the main harvest rapture. (Rev 7:9 KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Rev 7:10 KJV) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (Rev 7:11 KJV) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, (Rev 7:12 KJV) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. (Rev 7:13 KJV) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? (Rev 7:14 KJV) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. This is clearly the main body of the Church being raptured and this is in Heaven, not on the earth.

The unfaithful Christians that are not watching for the Lord’s return will be left behind to go through a time of testing so they will have another chance to become faithful and enter the Kingdom of Heaven (which is not a place but a position of reigning and ruling with Jesus Christ).

(Luk 21:35 KJV) For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

(Luk 21:36 KJV) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

He evens mentions in the Lord’s prayer that we should pray:

(Mat 6:13 NKJV) And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

God cannot and will not tempt us so the word temptation here is talking about the “the hour of trial”or the tribulation period.

(Rev 3:8 NKJV) "I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

(Rev 3:9 NKJV) Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie--indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

(Rev 3:10 NKJV) Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Notice that the OPEN DOOR is only promised to the Philadelphian Christians and they are kept from the “hour of trial”.

(Jas 1:12 NKJV) Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. (Jas 1:13 NKJV) Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

The sad thing about today about most Christians is that they don’t study their bible and prepare for the coming Kingdom of god and because of this they will be ashamed when the Lord returns. (2Ti 2:15 KJV) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We must love His appearing and look for it incessantly and encourage others all the more as we see the day approaching!!

(Heb 10:24 KJV) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
(Heb 10:25 KJV) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

(Tit 2:12 KJV) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
(Tit 2:13 KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

(2Ti 4:7 KJV) I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
(2Ti 4:8 KJV) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Many Christians are not watching for the Lords’ return and therefore will have to go through the first 3 ½ years of the tribulation period. The Bible is clear that the Day of Christ and our gathering together unto Him cannot occur until the Separation (First Fruits rapture of the faithful Christians who are watching and yearning for the Lord’s appearing or return) takes place and the man of sin (Antichrist) is revealed.

(2Th 2:1 KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(2Th 2:2 KJV) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(2Th 2:3 KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Looking and hoping for the Lord’s return and trying to save our soul by our freewill should be the main focuses in our Christian walk and we do this by committing our life to good works since that is what we are going to be judged for. I am working on saving my soul (My Spirit has already been saved by Gods’ imputed righteousness which is a onetime occurrence that is a past event) since eternal life is what we are seeking after.

(Jas 1:21 KJV) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

(Rom 2:4 KJV) Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
(Rom 2:5 KJV) But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
(Rom 2:6 KJV) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

(Heb 11:6 KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

We don’t have to strive or go through tribulations (persecutions) to enter heaven as the Spirit salvation that Jesus imputed to us was taken care of at Calvary, however, we must strive to enter the Kingdom and strive to be taken in the separation (straight gate or Open door which is promised only to Philadelphia Christians). In the letters to the SEVEN churches in revelation, 6 of the 7 Church types can be over comers which would make them Philadelphia Christians, if they overcome the negative things that Jesus had to say about each of the 6 Churches. Jesus had nothing negative to say about the Philadelphia Church which is the one I pray always that I will be like.

(Act 14:21 NKJV) And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch,
(Act 14:22 NKJV) strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."
(Luk 12:31 KJVR) But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Luk 12:32 KJVR) Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
(Mat 7:13 KJVR) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
(Mat 7:14 KJVR) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
(Luk 13:23 KJVR) Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
(Luk 13:24 KJVR) Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(Luk 13:25 KJVR) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

I hope you receive this well. God Bless. Our relationship with Jesus Christ will never be any stronger than our relationship with His Holy Word, the Bible. For the most part I am in agreement with you on the two raptures designated for the Church.
Maranatha!!!

By the way, we are looking and hoping for the Separation (first fruits rapture, Elijah and Enoch are a type of this) to occur this spring 2007, as Spring is when Jesus said it would be: (Mat 24:32 NKJV) "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. (Mat 24:33 NKJV) So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!

(Mat 24:34 NKJV) Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

The Song of Solomon also says it is in the spring, so we are always anxious for Spring to arrive every year.

If time allows, please visit the following website for many writings on how Christians need to prepare for the coming Kingdom of God. There are many other important Biblical messages there for the church as well. Many Christians need to understand that most of the negative things written in the Bible related to perishing are warnings to us, the beloved Brethren of our Lord Jesus Christ.

www.ffruits.org

My reply

> > the second half of the tribulation (42 months or 3 ½ years=The Day of the Lord)

I agree with you on most things. It seems that where we differ in interpreting prophecy is that you think the 2nd Rapture will be Mid-Trib, and that the last half of the Tribulation is the 3.5 year Day of the Lord.

I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture will be on one literal day called both the DAY OF THE LORD and the DAY OF GOD'S WRATH.

Dan 11:45 says, "And he (the False Prophet) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas (between the Mediterranean and the Dead Sea) in the glorious holy mountain (at Jerusalem); yet he shall come to HIS END (i.e., at the end of the Great Tribulation, the last half of the Tribulation), and none shall help him. "

Dan 12:1,2 says, "And at that time (when the False Prophet comes to HIS END at the end of the Great Tribulation) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME (only one literal day fits that): and at that time (one day, the Day of God's Wrath) thy people (Hebrews, i.e., the 144,000 of Rev. 7:1-8 and 14:4,5) shall be delivered (i.e., raptured at the end of the 1260 days of Rev. 12:6 and 14), EVERY ONE (i.e., none will be raptured after that) THAT SHALL BE FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

I also take Jer 30:7 to be one literal day. It says, "Alas! for THAT DAY is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: it is even THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE; BUT HE SHALL BE SAVED OUT OF IT."

Rev 12:6 says, "And the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." The 144,000 would be among these that flee to Petra.

Rev 12:14 says, "And to the woman (Israel) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place (Petra), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (the last half of the Tribulation), from the face of the serpent" (Satan in the False Prophet who rules during the Great Tribulation).

Rev. 6:17 says, "For the great DAY OF HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?" On this one day, the rocks are already starting to fall to the Earth when the 144,000 Israelites are raptured (Rev. 7:8,9, 14-16).

It says, "Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations (including Israel), and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...And he said to me, These are they which CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION (the last half of the Tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat."

After this Pre-Wrath Rapture, there is silence both in Heaven and on Earth (Rev. 8:1; Hab. 2:20) while Christ is seated as Judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Immediately afterward, the 7 angels are given the 7 trumpets of judgment in Rev. 8:2. All 7 sound on one day, the Day of the Lord which is also the Day of God's Wrath, Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. On this one day, both the asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10,11 impact Earth. The mountain sized piece hits the Mediterranean Sea. The aster (star) called Wormwood destroys Babylon.

Isa. 22:16-19 explains more about the asteroid Wormwood being hurled at Earth. It says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou (Satan) hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here (at Babylon), as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high (in the asteroid Wormwood), and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. He will surely violently TURN AND TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country (not tiny Israel): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."

> > Many Christians are not watching for the Lords’ return and therefore will have to go through the first 3 ½ years of the tribulation period.

I think the foolish Laodicean virgins will have to go through the entire 2300-day (Dan. 8:12-14) shortened Tribulation. Like Elijah, they will be saved though as by fire when the flaming, smoking fig-sized rocks are already falling to Earth (Rev. 6:13).

> > I am working on saving my soul (My Spirit has already been saved by Gods’ imputed righteousness which is a onetime occurrence that is a past event) since eternal life is what we are seeking after.

I know what Lyn Mise teaches concerning this. However, I think man is body, soul and spirit (i.e., the spirit of man), and that when we accept Christ our whole body, soul and spirit are saved. Christ baptizes us with his Holy Spirit too. After that, we are working for rewards, not to save our soul.

At the moment of accepting Christ as our own personal Saviour, all our "old sins" are wiped off the slate. Any sins committed after that need to be confessed to bring them under the blood of Christ. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." At that point, we are filled with the Holy Spirit, whom we have been quenching when we sinned. He wells up in us as a fountain of living water when we are not quenching him. At this point, we are wise virgins with plenty of oil of the Holy Spirit.

II Peter 1:3-11 says, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious PROMISES: THAT BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind (like a Laodicean), and cannot see afar off (compare with Luke 21:36), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his OLD SINS. Wherefore the rather, brethren (believers), give diligence to MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance (i.e., at the Rapture) shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. "

When we see the Pre-Trib saints in Heaven in Rev. 17:14, it says, "he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that ARE WITH HIM are CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL." Mt. 22:12-14 says, "And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness (outside the doors darkness); there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN." We want to be "CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL."

Of those foolish virgins left behind the first time Luke 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (i.e., the Tribulation) with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: (pretenders) there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

> > By the way, we are looking and hoping for the Separation (first fruits rapture, Elijah and Enoch are a type of this) to occur this spring 2007, as Spring is when Jesus said it would be: (Mat 24:32 NKJV) "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. (Mat 24:33 NKJV) So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!

I think Enoch is a type of the first Rapture--no tribulation. Elijah had tribulation. Jezebel wanted him killed. Rev 2:20-22 says, "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee (the church of Thyatira), because thou sufferest that woman JEZEBEL, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into GREAT TRIBULATION (the last half of the Tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

Mat 24:20,21 says, "But pray ye that your flight (Mid-Trib, Rev. 12) be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be (i.e., after Mid-Trib) GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Rev 7:14 says, "These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

As soon as I saw your last name, I thought of Lyn Mise. I went to www.ffruits.org and read what he wrote about "The Coming Rapture, The Open Door".
http://www.ffruits.org/firstfruits/comingrapture.aspx

> > the 24 elders and the four living creatures (i.e., Christians worthy of crowns and thrones) represent the five wise virgins and the Philadelphia church. This is the Firstfruits Harvest of faithful Christians who have prepared themselves for the return of Jesus Christ. They are the faithful Christians who have matured early before the time of the hot summer sun (i.e., the fires of the tribulation) which would ripen or mature Christians for the Main Harvest Rapture in the middle of the tribulation.

I think Moses and Elijah are the only ones going up near Mid-Trib.

> > The wrath of God is not unleashed upon the earth until the middle of the tribulation when the trumpet Judgments begin (Rev. 6:16,17; 8:1ff).

I think the trumpet judgments begin on the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the 2300 days of Dan. 8:12-14.

> > After Jesus has finished opening the seven-sealed scroll—a strictly legal transaction—in the middle of the tribulation, He begins the process of taking possession of the earth.

I think Jesus takes the scroll, the Title Deed of the Earth, right after the first Rapture (Rev. 5), and opens the 7th seal on the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 6:17;7:9,14: 8:1), which is the day of the second Rapture.

> > The last half of the tribulation period is called the “time of Jacob’s trouble”

As I said above, I believe that the "time of Jacob's trouble" is just one day, not the whole Great Tribulation. It is one day like no other. See Dan. 12:1,2.

> > The last half of the tribulation period is the Day of the Lord. It is the time that God’s wrath will be unleashed upon the earth in the trumpet and vial judgments described in Revelation.

> > The Jews will be persecuted by Antichrist during the second three and one-half years, which is called the time of Jacob’s trouble.

I think the Day of the Lord is just one day, the Day of God's Wrath. It is the same day spoken of in Dan. 12:1,2. That is one day like no other.

> > It is important to know that wheat dies from the roots upward as it becomes mature. As the roots die, the heads become ripe with grain (i.e., fruit) and bow as though in prayer to the heavenly Father. The tares remain stiffly erect, and they are easily distinguished from the wheat.

I didn't know that.

> > For the most part I am in agreement with you on the two raptures designated for the Church.

At least you can see that there have to be two Raptures. Many cannot see that. The Philadelphians go up at the first trump of God (I Thess. 4:13-18). The rest of the church groups go up at the "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52).

Nu 10:2-4 says, "the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them (i.e., both) FOR THE CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation (that represents the 2nd Rapture). And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (i.e., the 24 elders, 12 patriarchs and 12 apostles of Israel), shall gather themselves unto thee." This represents the first Rapture. We see the 24 elders on their thrones in Rev. 4:4.

According to Rev. 14:4,5, the 144,000 Israelites will be added to the Bride group caught up in the first Rapture. They are virgins without fault before the throne of God. No one but the 144,000 can sing the New Song at the 2nd Rapture. All the saints caught up in the first Rapture sing the new song (Rev. 5:9).

Psa. 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (like Jeremiah was pulled up out of a miry pit), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven, Saturn, the sapphire throne; Eze. 1:26), and established my goings. And he hath put a NEW SONG in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

As you can see on my home page, I think the first Rapture will be on Pentecost, and the 2nd Rapture will be on the Feast of Trumpets 2300 days later. Dan. 8:12-14 says, "And an host was given him (the False Prophet) against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression (he sits in the Temple "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4), and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (i.e., the first half of the Tribulation), and the transgression of desolation (the Great Tribulation), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, UNTO TWO THOUSAND AND THREE HUNDRED DAYS; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The Hebrew year that begins on that Feast of Trumpets that is the the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the Day of the Lord, the day of the Marriage of the Lamb, the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Day of God's Wrath has to be a Hebrew Leap Year. Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD." Christ will be glorified the day of the Second Advent. That will be on Nisan 1, the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year. For there to be 7 months from Tishri 1 to Nisan 1, it has to be a Leap Year with the 13th month.

I sure hope the Rapture will be sooner, but this is how it looks to me now. The 2300 days have to fit from Pentecost to Trumpets (by Jewish inclusive reckoning). The year 5776 is the next possibility. The 2300 days fit, and it is a Leap Year. That would make Pentecost (Sivan 6) fall on 5-29-2009 and Trumpets (Tishri 1) 2300 days later on 9-14-2015). Those would be the dates of the two Raptures. That way, the Second Advent would be 7 months later, on Nisan 1, 5776, Saturday, April 9, 2016. Agape

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