Pro and Con 134, Uploaded 6-22-98

Note: I am sorry that the dates I thought the Rapture would take place have passed, but it can't be too far in the future. Keep your faith strong and stay ready.

Incoming Email

...I'm sorry, but you have merely thrown a barrage of Bible quotes at me. None of this is valid unless you can demonstrate that the Bible is the truth.

Sincerely, Chris

My reply

Hi Chris: God proved that the Bible is true himself. I do not need to. His prophecies are so detailed that there is no possibility of their coming true inless he is omniscient and omnipotent. He proved that the Bible is God-breathed by making his prophecies come true 100%. In His love

Incoming Email

you wrote:
>The Rapture does not seem to be such an new thing. Between 383 and 627
>AD, Pseudo-Ephraem, in a just-under-1500-word sermon (divided into ten
>sections and preserved for us in 4 Latin manuscripts), said, "All the
>saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation,
>which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not
>see at any time the confusion which overshelms the world because of our

Hi Marilyn. The question then becomes, How did he view the "tribulation"? I too believe that the rapture will come before the tribulation, if that "tribulation" is strictly Armageddon. But I do not see any Biblical evidence for the rapture to occur before the 70th Week, mainly because I do not see one indication of a coming of Jesus before that period. It is possible, from Daniel 12:1, to come to the conclusion that the "tribulation" is the post-trib period occurring at the end of the anti-Christ's 3.5 years.

There is no doubt that the rapture occurs to spare the Book-of-Life Christians from wrath, but what wrath? That is the question. I believe it is the wrath of Armageddon alone, and not the minor wrath of the 70th Week. I learn this from the (post-trib) 6th Seal, but also from 2 Thess. 1:7-10. That is, the wrath of 1 Thess 5:9 that we are not appointed to is the wrath of 2 Thess 1:7-10:

" the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven, in flaming fire with his powerful angels, giving full vengeance to the ones not knowing God and to those not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus, whom will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his strength, when he comes to be glorified in his saints and to be admired by all those who have believed..."

This wrath can only be the wrath of Armageddon, at the post-trib coming, which then commences eternal destruction associated with the second death.

My reply

Pseudo-Ephraem wrote of things that will happen during the course of the Tribulation, wars, earthquakes, plagues, famine, drought, then of the time when "people will hide themselves from the wars in the mountains and rocks." He said of the one born from the tribe of Dan, "he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations." Then he said, "the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months...and there will be a great tribulation, as there has not been since people began to be upon the earth." He wrote of them seeing "the sign of the Son of Man" and the return of Christ. The nearest he gets to true Armageddon (he does not use this word at all) is "his hour of judgment has come! Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss."

To me, Armageddon cannot take place until Christ is on Earth. When Satan is deposed from office and dominion is taken from him and given to him to whom it belongs at the end of the full seven years, Satan will fight. Armageddon is his last-ditch stand.

In Rev. 19:11, we see Heaven opened, Christ on a white horse. He is coming at the Second Advent. In v. 14, the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses. Only after that, in v. 19, do we see "the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army." That is Armageddon. The beast is taken, and with him the false prophet. Then Satan is chained.

> There is no doubt that the rapture occurs to spare the Book-of-Life
> Christians from wrath, but what wrath? That is the question. I believe it is
> the wrath of Armageddon alone, and not the minor wrath of the 70th Week.

I believe that you are right that it is not the minor wrath of the 70th week, but neither is it Armageddon. Here is the way I see it. On the Feast of Trumpets, the first day of the Millennium, the day that the Sign of the Son of Man is seen when the heavens are rolled aside like a scroll, after the sixth seal is broken, men will say "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH OF THE LAMB: FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME" (Rev. 6:16,17). As the seventh seal is broken in Rev. 8, we read of the seven trumpet judgments and the terror of terrors. This is the wrath all believers are saved from. The Pre-Trib Rapture has already taken place. The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place before noon that day.

At noon, two pieces of an asteroid impact Earth. Rev. 8:8 says, "a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea." That piece hits the Mediterranean Sea. "Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast" (Zeph. 2:4,5).

This stops Gog's army invading Israel. Ezek. 38:18 says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my FURY shall come up in my face." Not only will all "the fishes of the sea" shake, "all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake" (Ezek. 38:20).

The larger piece annihilates Babylon on the Euphrates River. Rev. 8:10 says, "And the third angel sounded and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp." This is the "stone like a great millstone" of Rev. 18:21. It destroys the city.

"When he (the wicked one) is about to fill his belly, God shall cast the FURY OF HIS WRATH upon him, and shall rain it upon him while he is eating" (Job. 20:23).

This the day of thick darkness, as "the day of the LORD cometh" (Joel 2:1,2). It cannot be the day of Christ's return in glory. When "the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee", it "shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light" (Zech. 14:5-7).

After the catastrophe, there are seven Jewish months before the Second Advent. "And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezek. 39:12).

After the Second Advent on the first day of the Jewish Regnal Year, Armageddon takes place.

> the wrath of 1 Thess 5:9 that we are not appointed to is the wrath
> of 2 Thess 1:7-10

I agree. By that time both Raptures have taken place. II Thess. 1:7-11 says, "rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be (still future) punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall (still future) come to be glorified in his saints,...Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would COUNT YOU WORTHY OF THIS CALLING." This calling up is the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

But we are told "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36). This is the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Incoming Mail

My friends and I have injoyed not only reading your books, but really studying every aspect of them. When I was teaching Sunday School, I would have given anything to have had such wonderful knowledge available as is contained in your books. You are in our minds so much and we thank you a million times over for all your years of research and putting it in print for those of us who are striving and searching for knowledge. We have come to believe if Marilyn said it we believe it.

We did our watching on May 31, 1998 but we were not exactly too disappointed. Have you figured out why not?

We wish you had another book coming out. If you ever do, please let me know. We thank the Lord for you all the time. Sincerely

My reply

You can't believe anything just because I said it, or anyone else said it. You have to compare everything with Scripture and see if these things are so. Only Scripture is absolute truth. I am not a prophet and can make mistakes. For instance, the May 31, 1998 date passed without the Rapture taking place when I expected it.

As to why not?, I did not take into consideration that there could be a delay. When I saw that Song of Solomon 2:10-14 said that winter is past, there are green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell, I knew that there was only one feast day that could fit into that narrow gap. Expecting the Lord to do things on his feast days, I thought Pentecost the most likely.

For sure, ever since I got my Web page up, and maybe before, I have said over and over that I wanted to be everyone's wake-up call. It turned out to be just that. I wanted people to get ready, to be wise virgins with enough oil. I did not read the parable of the ten virgins closely enough. In it, there was some reason, like a wake-up call, that caused the virgins to take their lamps, and go "forth to meet the bridegroom" (Mt. 25:1). Yet, in verse 5, it says, "While the bridegroom TARRIED, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh: go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps." This cry was not the same thing that caused them to go forth to meet the bridegroom in verse 1. I did not notice that before.

In verse 1, their lamps were burning ok. They went forth expecting to meet the bridegroom. But, after he tarried, the foolish ones found out that they did not have enough oil because it took a longer time than they were prepared for.

Evidently, we are in this tarrying period now. I remember that Jesus told Peter that Satan desired to have him to sift as wheat. We are probably being sifted in a sieve as wheat right now. The outcome may decide who are the wise virgins and who are the foolish ones. We must stand firm in our faith and wait patiently, ever ready for his call.

Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my PATIENCE, I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Luke 21:36 tells us to "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

"Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching" (Lu. 12:37).

"Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him" (Heb. 10:35-38).

This is no time to draw back. It is a time to confess any sins, forgive any wrongs done to you, stay ready and wait patiently. It is a time to pray for strength and protection from the enemy. It is a time to share your faith with others and give them a reason for the hope that is in you.

I Pet. 3:15 says, "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing."

Incoming Email

Marilyn wrote:
> Re: Brides. Peter Michas is Greek. It is his first language. He says
> that the 10 "virgins" should be translated "betrothed brides."
> I think the wise refers to the Bride (called virgins because forgiven).
> It follows the passage " as the days of Noe." Go back to the fig tree
> parable in Mt. 24:33. It says, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all
> these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. What is near? "
> the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lu. 21:31). It is even at the
> doors, and door is a symbol of the Rapture in Rev. 3:8 and 4:1. Then,
> from the days of Noah in v. 37 to v. 51, it still refers to the days of
> the Rapture. And "THEN shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten
> virgins..."
> In the OT, all Israel was betrothed to the Lord at Sinai. In the NT,
> aren't all believers betrothed to the Lord? Who else could the virgins
> refer to but believers? Even the ones left behind say, "Lord, Lord."
> Even they have some oil in their lamps, just not enough.

Hello Marilyn,
You said all of the 10 "virgins" are "betrothed brides." They might be--but not ALL to the SAME Bridegroom. The problem is there is only ONE Bridegroom and ONE Bride. Which ONE of the 10 "virgins" does the Bridegroom marry as His "betrothed bride?" If all 10 of the "virgins"are His "betrothed brideS" that He has picked out and intends to marry then who are the female attendants that accompany the real Bride along with the Bridegroom and his best man and other male attendants back to the Father's house? Which ONE of the "virgins" did the Bridegroom choose to be His Bride? Surely He did NOT pick all 10--or even the 5! But just ONE and only ONE out from among the many--who really isn't any one of these 10. You really don't want to say that all 10 "virgins" are all betrothed to Christ as His BrideS--and that He intends to marry them ALL--do you? The Scripture text simple does not say that. We must be careful mixing metaphors or we can be guilty of trying to force the Scripture to say something that it simple does not say. We must read out from the Scriptures, not into them. Will the real Bride please stand up! But she is not in view and is un-named in the parable in Matthew 25, since she is not the subject of that parable. The same READINESS that is required of the Bride is also required of these attending escorting virgins. This we know from other Scriptures (Rev.19:7). That is what this parable is teaching.

My reply

Is the Body of Christ one person? Of course not. I don't think the Bride of Christ is one person either. All Israel was betrothed to the Lord at Sinai. That was an example for us today. I Cor. 10:11 says, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come."

To Israel, the Lord said, "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am MARRIED UNTO YOU: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion" (Jer. 3:14). She will be taken back later, "And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi" (my husband). "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel" (Christ, YHVH of hosts) (Isa. 54:5).

Song of Solomon 6:13 says, "What will ye see in the Shulamite? As it were (symbolic language) the company of TWO ARMIES." This is why 7:2 says, "thy belly is like an heap of wheat (we are called wheat) set about with lilies." This can be compared with the candlesticks and stars of Rev. 1. The candlesticks are the churches;, the stars are the angels, or messengers (i.e., the star performers), of the seven churches.

> who are the female attendants

Where does the NT mention anything about female attendants? I think it is talking about betrothed brides.

> You really don't want to say that all 10 "virgins" are
> all betrothed to Christ as His BrideS--and that He intends to marry them
> ALL--do you?

Just as Israel was betrothed to the Lord, I think the Church is betrothed to Him. I think the 5 wise make it and become the Bride, and the 5 foolish do not. I think the wise are invited to the Marriage of the Lamb, the foolish are invited to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. All are virgins and are saved, but not all win the prize of the high calling of God in Christ, the first Rapture.

> The Scripture text simple does not say that.

The Scripture text does not mention attendants either.

> she (the Bride) is not the subject of that parable

I think she is. From Mt. 24:33's "it (he) is near, even at the doors" on, it is talking about the kingdom of heaven (Lu. 21:31). Mt. 24:37f talks about "as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." There, we see a division, two women (symbol of religious groups) grinding, one taken, the other left. Verse 44 says, "be ye also ready." Verse 51 shows the cutting off of the evil servant. There will be "WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH." They will be appointed their "portion with the unbelievers" (Lu. 12:46). Then it immediately goes into the parable of the 10 virgins with the division of faithful and "WISE" servants (as in 24:45) and the evil servant (as in 24:48). It all hangs together. Even after that parable, it speaks on the same subject up until v. 30: "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness (i.e., outside the door): there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH," the same as in 24:51.

"Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching" (Lu. 12:37).

Incoming Email

Perhaps in a few hours we'll be meeting our Lord in the air. But, I lean toward a fall harvest. If you have time, (haven't left yet) check out John Hagee, and what he has to say about the seven feasts of Israel. Put your opinion on your web site. I'd like to know what you think. I find your research impressive and your ideas stimulating, though I have a hard time with date setting to the hour. The season, yes, it is hear. Keep looking up.

My reply

If Song of Solomon 2:10-14 applies, I can't see how it could be stretched to include a fall Rapture of the Bride. There is a second Rapture, for the Tribulation saints, and I think it is in the fall, on the Feast of Trumpets, between the breaking of the sixth seal in Rev. 6:12 and the breaking of the seventh seal in Rev. 8.

I have no money to buy any books. Does Hagee have this information on a Web site?

Incoming Email

I read your web-site. I am curious as to why some Christians, including yourself, insist on predicting dates of the coming of Christ when he clearly said no one would know the day or the hour (Mk. 13; Matt. 24)? Apparently you do? This also in light of the fact you've already given false dates in the past month by your own admission. I am confused. Don't you realize that some people will reject God and end up in Hell on account of these times we Christians "call wolfe"? Please respond.

In Christ,

p.s. I don't mean this to be polemical, but I am concerned

My reply

Here is a copy of another email I just received:
> MJ Agee - greetings in Jesus.
> i see plenty of statements like this everywhere about your date
> prognosis and the missed dates:
> >It is time for you to give up that act and clearly state that you have been used by Satan to
bring shame on the body of Christ. <<
> it is beyond me that one member of the body of Christ can look another
> mamber of the body in the (cyber) eye and call them full of the devil.
> the next time someone says this to you, or a similar statement (such as,
> 'unbelievers are being turned away from the Lord because of your
> inaccurate date setting"), just demand that they 'PROVE IT'. name names,
> and present the data. if they can't, then it's just another 'OPINION'.
> you'll never answer to them any way.
> keep plowing.
> best regards in Jesus
You know, I am encouraging nonbelievers to accept Christ, Christians to get ready, stand strong, confess their sins, forgive others wrongs done to them, and wait patiently for the Lord. I am working with various ones who are non Christians too. Some have accepted Christ. I can't see where being wrong about something is going to cause someone to "reject God and end up in Hell" unless they have chosen that route anyway.

No human being is right on all counts. We are not God. There is not a person on Earth who has never been wrong. There is not a book out there anywhere that is error free except the Bible. We are each doing the best we can. Have you done better? Then please get your message out there to help someone.

I just got home. While Ed was in the grocery, I picked up the Berkeley Version that I had in the car. I just happened to turn to James. Here is what I found:

"Blessed is the man who stands up under trial; for when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that is promised to those who love Him....Do not malign one another, brothers (brethren, KJV, i.e., believers)....So, endure patiently, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. Note how the farmer awaits the precious produce of the soil, keeping patient about it until it gets the early and the late rains. So you keep waiting patiently; fortify your hearts, for THE COMING OF THE LORD IS NEAR. Do not complain against one another, brothers, so you may not come under judgment. See, the Judge (i.e., Christ) has stationed Himself at the doors (symbol of the Raptures). Take, brothers, for your example of ill-treatment that was patiently endured, the prophets who spoke in the Lord's name, whom we call blessed for their way of enduring" (James 1:12; 4:11; 5:7-11).

-- "Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching" (Lu. 12:37).

Incoming Email

Newton Revisited ( (Jim Bramlett), 6:58 AM) OK to post if you desire.


Third only to Jesus and Solomon, Sir Isaac Newton may have been the most brilliant person who ever lived. We have taken his 300-year-old interpretation of Daniel 9:25 very seriously, and rightfully so. This is where he said the 62 weeks from the command to restore and build Jerusalem counted to Messiah's first coming, and the 7 weeks (49 years) to His Second Coming (we have interpreted as rapture).

We first thought the final count began on May 14, 1948 and would end exactly 49 years later, May 14, 1997. Made sense, but it didn't happen. If a valid interpretation by Newton, there must be another answer.

An e-mail friend has repeatedly insisted that Newton did not say just seven weeks, or 49 years, but Jewish weeks and seven "sabbatical" years. I checked my book on Daniel by Newton, and she is correct. Newton says, "The seventy and sixty-two weeks were Jewish weeks, ending with sabbatical years; so the seven weeks are the compass of a Jubilee, and begin and end with actions proper for a Jubilee, and of the highest nature for which a Jubilee can be kept" (page 133).

My friend believes the historical, unbroken sabbatical week and Jubilee cycles apply to this, and counts from what some sources say was the beginning in 1451 B.C., which she says (neatly) takes us to A.D. 2000 and the 70th Jubilee. In her reckoning, as I recall, the 49-year count could not have begun in 1948, but had to wait until the next sabbatical year, 1950 or 1951. This fits her strong belief that the 1993 Oslo peace agreement was the "covenant of death" (Isaiah 28:15-18) and beginning of the final 7-year countdown, but I have reservations about this scenario.

She may be right about the continuous counting from the very first Jubilee. However, we are not 100 percent sure the 1451 B.C. date is accurate. And even if it is, God could have declared a "time out" for counting Jubilees while Israel was not in the land, starting over in 1948 when Israel again "entered the land." Another possibility is that to be consistent with His attribute of perfect accuracy, the 1948 date could have actually been selected on purpose by God to coincide with the historical Jubiliee cycle. I am inclined to one of these two latter views.

If this is correct, using the civil calendar, it seems that the Newton's interpretation of the 7 weeks would begin in 1948 and end sometime in the 50th Jubilee year that began 1 Tishri, 5758 (October 2, 1997), the Jewish year which we are currently in ("the compass of a Jubilee ... begin and end with actions proper for a Jubilee," Newton says). It seems this window would close 1 Tishri 5759 (September 20, 1998). Alternative calculations could (1) use the sacred calendar, but I believe we are already out of that window, or (2) use the Israel birth date, 6 Iyar 5758, or May 14, 1998, which would take us to those dates in 1999.

Subject to correction from my more astute date-cruncher friends, I am therefore inclined to believe that the current window of this calculaton of Newton's interpretation would extend to September 20, 1998.


I still feel very positive about the Jerusalem rabbi's "at least 30-less than 50" age window, according to God's own pattern for priesthood established in Numbers 4, which surely applies to Israel's end-time priestly role, confirmed by Ezekiel.

Jerusalem was captured June 6, 1967 (6 Iyar 5257). I believe Marilyn Agee is correct in saying that this is when the "fig tree" actually began to "put forth its leaves," into the Golan Heights, Sinai, the Temple Mount, and the West Bank, and is a critical date for calculating "this generation," in which all things are fulfilled. If "this generation" was born on June 6, 1967, it would begin its 30th year on June 6, 1997 (or beginning of next Hebrew year). However, the "at least 30" window may not have been completed until the COMPLETION of the 30th year on June 6, 1998 (or sacred year in March 1998). Either way, it appears we are in that part of the window. The "less than 50" part of the window for Israel would seem to coincide with the Newton window above -- September 20, 1998 (Rosh HaShanah), rather than before May 14, 1998.

CONCLUSION: We MAY have two separate and independent Biblical paths pointing to the same window for the rapture between now and September 20, 1998. If so, this confirms the biblical interpretations of others. Using the sacred-year calendar might adjust the window somewhat.
The above is speculation only and more enlightened input is solicited.
Incurable Seeker
"It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them" (Luke 12:37. NIV.)
Note from Marilyn: With regards to the Six-Day War being the Sign of the End of the Age, not only does it fulfill the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34, Psalm 122:3,4 (New Jerusalem Bible) says, "Jerusalem, built as a city, in ONE UNITED WHOLE, there the tribes go up, the tribes of Yahweh, A SIGN for Israel to give thanks to the name of Yahweh." Besides this, Israel was 19 years old in 1967, and the fig tree parable said, "When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves." The word translated tender is "apalos," and means young. When Israel came out of Egypt, those males 20 and up were counted. Those 19 years old were the young. It seems to me that the fig tree parable had to be fulfilled by 1967. Thus the final generation would end in 2007. The 2300 days before the Feast of Trumpets in 2007 is the Feast of Weeks in 2001. That much seems secure. Now, if we could just figure out the Rapture date. :-) At this time, I can't place any confidence in a fall Pre-Trib Rapture, but I will have to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Tim. 2:15). Anyway, I am watching and waiting patiently.

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Updated 6-22-98