Pro and Con 1349

Pro and Con 1349

Posted 2-25-07

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050613meteor.htm

Rice delegation: Peace conference will take place in D.C. this November

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3432811,00.html

New PA Platform: Peace With Israel Within A Year, Jerusalem Joint Capital

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1185379018232&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Abbas says he hopes to reach peace agreement with Israel in less than a year

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3430336,00.html

I’m quitting political life, says Peres

Attila Somfalvi
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3430442,00.html

Kadima members bid farewell to newly appointed president. ‘I ask that you continue being active in political affairs and utilize your connections to nurture and strengthen Israel’s ties,’ Olmert tells Peres

Praying Against Zion

By Mark D. Tooley, July 26, 2007 http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=29268

The National Council of Churches (NCC) is distressed that not all Christians share its animosity towards Israel.

Preferring not to address its own demographic implosion, the NCC periodically lashes out at more demographically robust Christian movements, especially conservative evangelicals. In its latest fusillade, the NCC denounced the “Christian Zionism” of Christians United for Israel (CUFI), which recently convened its second convention in Washington for pro-Israel evangelicals...

Speaking unpleasantly about radical jihadists, of course, is unacceptable to the NCC and the Religious Left. "CUFI's ongoing vilification of Islam is also unacceptable," fretted Shanta Premawardhana, an NCC interfaith relations official. "The NCC continues to urge Christians to build relationships with Muslim people, the vast majority of whom are peace-loving, law-abiding people."...

The NCC, like the rest of the Religious Left, prefers to dismiss all pro-Israel evangelicals as “Left-Behind” fanatics whose support for the Jews is merely a crass and self-serving preparation for the end-times. CFI’s “efforts are the latest in a century old apocalyptic movement that began in earnest in the 19th century,” the NCC asserted. “Sometimes called Christian Zionism because of its uncritical support for the State of Israel, it is based on a literal reading of Biblical apocalyptic texts.”

Incoming e-mail, Re: trump of God

Do you believe you will get your new, resurrected and glorified body before the Apostle Paul gets his? A simple yes or no answer will suffice. Thank-you.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The Apostle Paul must be part of the "we" and is raised here! 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Same last trump of God, same dead in Christ rising--same rapture. By the way, the first trumpet of God found in scripture is in Exodus19.10-20 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes. And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives. And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

Please don't do as the Preterists and allegorize away the clear scriptures. In Christ through His Grace and Blood alone

My reply

> > Do you believe you will get your new, resurrected and glorified body before the Apostle Paul gets his?

No. At the First-Trump Rapture, the dead in Christ that Jesus brings with him will get their resurrection bodies first. Then we will get ours and be caught up with them in the air.

1Th 4:16,17 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ (including Paul) shall rise FIRST: Then (i.e., afterward) we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Each one raised from the dead will be raised incorruptible. 1 Cor 15:42 says, "the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption".

However, neither of us will be CHANGED to an immortal being until the Last-Trump Rapture. At that time, all believers will actually become immortal at the same time. Heb 11:40 says, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should NOT be made perfect." Until that moment, we have Jesus' promise that we will become immortal.

1 Cor 15:51-54 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We (including Paul) shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption (i.e., when raised from the dead at either Rapture), and this mortal must put on immortality (only at the Last-Trump Rapture). So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, AND this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

> > Same last trump of God, same dead in Christ rising--same rapture.

We can't have a Last-Trump Rapture until after a First-Trump Rapture has taken place. The First-Trump Rapture of Rev. 4:1 is Pre-Trib. All those saints are seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. All of that Bride-of-Christ group sing the "NEW SONG." It says, "And they sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou (Christ) art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".

The Last-Trump Rapture takes place after the DAY of God's Wrath has come. Rev. 6:17 says, "For the great DAY of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Then the Tribulation saints are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9 and 14. The 7 trumpet judgments are not given to the 7 angels until Rev. 8.

In Rev. 14:4,5, we find out that of the second-Rapture group, only the 144,000 Israelites are able to sing the NEW SONG. The rest of the great multitude (including the foolish virgins left behind the first time) can't sing that song. It says, "And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and NO MAN COULD LEARN THAT SONG BUT THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins (i.e., the 144,000 are added to the wise-virgin group that are the Bride of Christ). These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

We don't have to be Tribulation saints. Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

> > By the way, the first trumpet of God found in scripture is in Exodus19.

Yes. 1 Cor 10:11 says, "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (lit., ages) are come." That first trumpet of God at Mt. Sinai is one good reason to expect the First-Trump Rapture on Pentecost. Song of Solomon 2:10-14 and Isa. 18:3-7 agree that it is in the spring when the vines are budding and setting grapes.

Isa. 18:3-7 says, "ALL YE INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD, AND DWELLERS ON THE EARTH, SEE YE, WHEN HE LIFTETH UP AN ENSIGN (flag) ON THE MOUNTAINS (kingdoms, i.e., the UN); AND WHEN HE BLOWETH A TRUMPET, HEAR YE. For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest. For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs (i.e., the branches having fruit) with pruning hooks, and take away (i.e., to Heaven) and cut down the branches (i.e., the ones with no fruit). They (including the foolish virgins) shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall SUMMER upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall WINTER upon them." Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Pro and Con 1346

Further to your paper on the Scarlet Beast where you quote: Rev 12:3,4 says, "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold A GREAT RED DRAGON, having seven heads and ten horns, and SEVEN CROWNS UPON HIS HEADS. And his tail (Satan) drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth". This view of the scarlet beast is at Mid-Trib, because that is when the 7th head is crowned.

Just a thought that perhaps the event where Satan and the third of stars are cast out mid trib and not in the ancient times. As can they not still come and go between the ‘stones of fire’ and heaven right up until the time they are cast out to earth mid trib? I thought that only a small handful of ‘Stars’, Watchers, Sons of God, were bound in chains for their work in ‘Gen 6 and ‘after that (Noah)’ – ie, as per Scripture and Book of Enoch. Just some thoughts to ponder. Regards

My reply

Yes, I think the third of the "stars," Satan's angels, are cast down Mid-Trib. Rev 12:6-9 says, "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place (Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (the last half of the Tribulation). And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Agape

Re: been waiting for 2008

I find the number 91 more than just interesting as Aaron and sons [ of which we are a type I believe ] took over their duties in the 91st chapter of the KJ Bible. Also in the NT the 91st chapter, the church received the Holy Spirit. Then if we look at Rev 5:9 we find that it is the 91st verse in Revelations.

Incoming e-mail, Re: The Impending Rapture

There seems to be some speculation at the moment about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture not taking place this year and the length of time of a generation. What did the Lord mean when saying and quoted emphatically three times in the gospels i.e.: Mathew 24:34; Mark 13:30; and Luke 21:32 that “this generation will not pass away before…”

I am sure that the Lord would not leave us in doubt about His Word and in particular at this time as all the signs point to the fact that we are about to enter the Tribulation period. All the prophesies in the Scriptures that have been fulfilled up to now have come about just as foretold, so why should there be any difference or doubts now?.

We all know and it is generally accepted that He was referring at the time to the fig tree and the recapture of the Temple Mount at the end of the Age of the Gentiles in 1967. In the same discourse He warned that ..Math. 23:36 “in this generation” the temple would be destroyed and that there would not be two stones left standing upon one another.

From historical records we know that that is EXACTLY what happened during that generation forty years later in 70 A.D. As a matter of fact that occurred on a 23rd July converted to our calendar. It is therefore extremely unlikely that He should refer to a forty year period for one generation at that time and then mean something else for another period. It would be illogical to accept anything else.

Conditions in the Middle East at the moment look more ominous with the passing of each day. Serious observers will be very surprised if full scale war does not erupt this summer (before 14th September, the start of the Jewish New Year, which will be the end of the 40 year period.) The Gog Magog war is about to break out, the start of much obvious tribulation for Israel in particular, and the rest of the world as well.

This is also historically a particular inauspicious time for the Jews as a whole.

On Tisha B’Av (the 9th of Av) from sunset of 23rd July to nightfall 24th July they celebrate a period of mourning to commemorate the many tragedies that have befallen them during this period. The first and second temples were destroyed in this time, as well as all the Jews being expelled form Spain in 1492. Tisha is the culmination of a three week period of increasing mourning, beginning with the fast of the 17th of Tammuz, which commemorates the first breach in the walls of Jerusalem leading to the destruction of the first temple.

It was about this time last year also that Hezbullah inflicted on Israel its ominous first military setback against the Moslems since its inception as a state.

From the reported historical facts mentioned above one can have little doubt that the Lord was being anything but very specific in making the statements that He did and having it repeated three times so clearly and pertinently in Holy Scripture. We should also remember that He is a loving Savoir and could in also not be that His grace is quite possibly being “extended” a little for the benefit of that last lost lamb to be found and brought into the fold. Maranatha

My reply

> > There seems to be some speculation at the moment about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture not taking place this year

I am hoping for the Pre-Trib Rapture next Pentecost myself. Why? I'll explain my reasons.

The next Hebrew year (5768) starts Sept. 13, 2007. It is both a Sabbatic Year (5768 divides evenly by 7) and a Leap Year (having a 13th month). Would 5768 be a good time for the Rapture? If so, at what feast?There should be no sowing or reaping for Jews. Therefore, no work to plow and sow would be wasted.

1 Cor. 10:11 says, "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and THEY ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR ADMONITION, UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE WORLD (lit., ages) ARE COME."

What are the ends of the Ages?

It looks like all three ages of the Great Week of Time (Age of the Gentiles, Age of the Jews and Age of the Church) will have concurrent endings here at the end of the Age of the Church. The ends of the ages can be determined by the timing of the end of the Age of the Jews. It ends with the 70th week of Daniel.

Dan 9:24-27 tells us that "Seventy weeks (70 x 7 weeks of years = 490 years) are determined upon thy people (Israelites) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy (Christ)."

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (Christ) shall be seven weeks (7 x 7 = 49 years), and threescore and two weeks (62 x 7 = 434 years): the street shall be built again, AND THE WALL, even in troublous times.

"And after threescore and two weeks (i.e., after 483 years total) shall Messiah (Jesus Christ) be cut off (karath, killed, i.e., crucified), but not for himself (for us):

"and the people (Romans) of the prince (False Prophet, the Satan-possessed final Antichrist) that shall come (i.e., in the future Great Tribulation) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (this happened in 70 AD);

"and the end thereof (i.e., the final time, in the Day of God's Wrath) shall be with a flood (a mountain-sized asteroid will impact the Mediterranean Sea, causing a tsunami, Rev. 8:8; 18:21), and unto the end of the war (Armageddon) desolations are determined (i.e., all the vials of God's wrath).

"And he (the prince that shall come, the False Prophet) shall confirm (strengthen) the covenant (i.e., the peace treaty) with many (probably the UN, EU, quartet, and Arab countries) for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (Mid-Trib) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (because he will sit in the Temple 'shewing himself that he is God,' II Thess. 2:4), and for the overspreading of abominations (idols) he shall make it (the Temple) desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined (i.e., God's Wrath) shall be poured upon the desolate."

The Pre-Trib Rapture comes before the revealing of the prince that shall come. I think the revealing will be on the Feast of Pentecost in 2009. Therefore, I think the Rapture should take place sometime between now and the Feast of Pentecost in 2009. Israel has to have time to build the Temple. According to Rev. 11:1, it must be there at the beginning of the first 1260 days.

The best indicator that I can find for the timing of the Pre-Trib Rapture is when the trumpet of God sounded in the past. There is something to be said for the law of first mention. When did the first trumpet in the Bible sound? According to the Jews, it sounded on Pentecost. They arrived at Mt. Sinai on Sivan 3, and God came down on Sivan 6, Pentecost, three days later.

Ex. 19:16,17 says, "And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and THE VOICE OF THE TRUMPET EXCEEDING LOUD; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. AND MOSES BROUGHT FORTH THE PEOPLE OUT OF THE CAMP TO MEET WITH GOD". To me, that is a type of the Rapture.

Will Moses again bring forth the people to meet with God? I wouldn't be surprised if he did. The Lord will bring Moses with him when he comes for his Bride.

Pentecost, 2007 has already passed. Therefore, I am hoping for the Rapture on the next Pentecost. That would leave one year for building the Temple before the Tribulation begins. According to Josephus, in Herod's day, the priests built the Temple proper in one year.

> > What did the Lord mean when saying and quoted emphatically three times in the gospels i.e.: Mathew 24:34; Mark 13:30; and Luke 21:32 that “this generation will not pass away before…”

Mt. 24:32-34 says, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e., no more than 19), and putteth forth leaves (Sinai, West Bank, Golan Heights and Gaza Strip), ye know that summer is nigh (the Six-Day war started June 5; summer began June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (the Rapture) is near, even at the doors (symbol of two Raptures, Rev. 3:8). Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION (i.e., those born in 1967) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mt. 1:17 definitely gives us the length of a generation, 48.33 years. 1967 + 48.33 = 2015.33. I think Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015 will be the Day of God's Wrath and that the following Nisan 1, 5776 (Sat., April 9, 2016) will be the day of the Second Advent.

Mark 13:28-30 says, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."

Luke 21:25-32 says, "And THERE SHALL BE SIGNS IN THE SUN, and in the moon, and in the stars (lit., constellations); and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

We have had signs in the heavens. The latest is the word "EL" in the Sun. EL means God from the Hebrew. The Rapture can't be far away with that kind of sign in the Sun.

> > It is therefore extremely unlikely that He should refer to a forty year period for one generation at that time and then mean something else for another period. It would be illogical to accept anything else.

Don't forget Mt. 1:17. It says, "So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations." There were 2030 years from Abraham to Christ. 2030 divided by 42 generations is 48.33. That is scriptural.

That forty-year period from 30 AD to 70 AD was prophesied in Eze. 4:6. It says, "when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year." The generation could have been 48.33 years, and the burning of the Temple still happen at 40 years.

> > The Gog Magog war is about to break out, the start of much obvious tribulation for Israel in particular, and the rest of the world as well.

The Gog-Magog war comes on the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the shortened Tribulation. This is so clear, I can't imagine why so many people think it will happen at the beginning of the Tribulation.

Eze. 38:18-20 says, "it shall come to pass at THE SAME TIME when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY SHALL COME UP IN MY FACE. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely IN THAT DAY there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (paniym, face, i.e., when they see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky), and the mountains (asteroids of Rev. 8:8-11) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and EVERY WALL SHALL FALL TO THE GROUND."

The reason the fish in the sea shake is because the mountain-sized asteroid hits the Mediterranean Sea. This is the day that all walls of the world's cities fall in the worldwide earthquake. Rev. 16:17-19 says, "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE MEN WERE UPON THE EARTH, SO MIGHTY AN EARTHQUAKE, AND SO GREAT. And the great city (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts, and THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL: and great BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of HIS WRATH."

How does Babylon fall? Rev. 18:21 says, "a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." That happens on the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the shortened Tribulation. I think it will happen on the Feast of Trumpets. Agape

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