Pro and Con 1361

Posted 10-2-07

After struggling over a year to get my off-again-on-again wireless computer network to work right, I finally got it up and running at a speed that would not often time-out and trigger "File not found."

Is this the wall found at the Temple Mount dig?

I found an astonishing lake of fire on National Geographic's web site.

Ancient Pharaoh Temple Discovered Inside Egypt Mosque

Steven Stanek in Cairo, Egypt

Sept 27, 07 - Parts of a temple dating to the reign of pharaoh Ramses II have been discovered inside a mosque in Luxor, Egypt, officials report...

Experts restoring the historic mosque uncovered sections of columns, capitals, and elaborately inscribed reliefs from one of the ancient temple's courtyards built around 1250 B.C.

The previously concealed architectural elements reveal well-preserved hieroglyphics and unique scenes depicting the powerful pharaoh....

The discovery was made during repair work on the mosque after a fire damaged part of the structure in June.

Abbas: Peace deal possible by May,7340,L-3454299,00.html

9.28.07 - Palestinian president says Israel, Palestinians could sign peace agreement within six months of international peace conference scheduled for November, which 'should define the principles settling the questions over the final status of the Palestinian territories'

Tony Blair launches his Middle East plan

By Tim Butcher and Aislinn Simpson, 25/09/07

Tony Blair last night said he has an "ambitious but achievable" plan to get the Middle East peace process back on track by the end of the year....

At a UN press conference last night Mr Blair, now Middle East envoy for the Quartet of the United Nations, European Union, United States and Russia, said he aims to put "real hope" back into the peace process in the region....

Mr Bush, who championed the peace summit in an effort to end decades of Israeli-Palestinian bloodshed, will sound out Mr Blair in his new role as international envoy to the Palestinians....

"Our aim is to get to the end of this year with real hope back in the political process, with a sense of what a Palestinian state would look like, with the capabilities of government, and with things improving on the ground," Mr Blair said last night.

"Those are ambitious objectives for the next few months, but I think they are achievable if the right will is there."...

Vatican Urges Muslims to Work for Peace

By NICOLE WINFIELD, Sept 28, 2007

My comment

Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, head of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue, was giving the traditional message at the end of Ramadan.

For first time in 60 years, all Arab states willing to recognize Israel

Rare opportunity for peace
Majdi Halabi,2506,L-3452937,00.html

Last month, Jordan's Foreign Minister Abdul Ilah Khatib and his Egyptian counterpart, Ahmed Abul Gheit, presented to our prime minister and political leaders the details of the Arab initiative ratified in Saudi Arabia. The initiative, which was rejected by former premier Ariel Sharon, who was busy with the disengagement at the time, is back on the international stage, and constitutes a rare window of opportunity.

For the first time in 60 years, all Arab countries are willing to recognize the existence of the Jewish state and even maintain normal relations with it. The conditions for it, according to a source involved in drafting the initiative, are very general: Israel is obligated to withdraw from the occupied territories and grant the Palestinians an independent state whose capital is east Jerusalem. In addition, the initiative calls for a fair solution to the Palestinian refugee problem.

However, the initiative does not require the parties to base an agreement on the precise 1967 borders or allow refugees to enter Israel. In addition, the initiative does not stipulate that the Old City in Jerusalem become the Palestinian capital.

What makes this initiative unique is the agreement of all Arab states to accept any solution worked out by the parties, as long as it constitutes an end to the conflict. According to sources involved in the matter, the initiative is not an outline of red lines for ending the conflict, but rather, constitutes a sort of general umbrella for any agreement between any Arab state and the State of Israel, or between the Palestinians and Israel.

Abbas Calls for Final Status of State on US Summit Agenda

Hisham Abu Taha, 10-1-07§ion=0&article=101909&d=1&m=10&y=2007

...Abbas’ talks with Mubarak came ahead of his meeting tomorrow with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert during which “they will discuss a joint statement” to be issued at the conference, according to one of Olmert’s spokesmen. The negotiating teams set up during the last round of Abbas-Olmert talks on Sept. 10 will hold their first meeting in the coming days to work out the wording of the statement, Olmert’s spokesman said.

Tomorrow’s meeting will be the fourth in two months between the two leaders as they attempt to come up with some kind of an agreement before the Middle East conference, expected to take place in November in Annapolis, Maryland, according to Israeli media...

PA to call for int'l body to oversee deals with Israel

By Avi Issacharoff, 10-1-07

...The senior Palestinian figure says the international body would be able to determine how agreements between the sides are to be implemented, hinting that what will be involved are a force of observers, able to separate the two sides and decide controversial issues.

The senior official said the PA would agree to a formula in which the international body would function in a similar fashion to the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL). The makeup of the international body and its authority will be determined during the summit, but an agreement may be reached even sooner, according to the senior Palestinian source....

Hinting at the urgent desire of the PA to push forward toward a final settlement, Abbas told the United Nations General Assembly late last week that "the time has come for the international community to use this opportunity ... to restart the peace process."

Abbas said Sunday in Cairo that more than 36 countries are expected to participate in the summit in the U.S., which he said "makes it necessary for us to arrive there with a clear document that will 'pave the way' for future talks on the details of a final settlement...

Gold Found in Negev

Scientists announced Monday that a high concentration of gold had been found in the mountains north of Eilat. According to Yediot Acharonot, the traces of gold—four grams per ton of dirt—were found during explorations funded by Jewish Australian businessman Avraham Salfinger, the owner of KiTov resources.

...drilling in the area could start by the end of 2008.

Archeologists find 2nd Temple quarry


9-23-07 - An ancient quarry where King Herod's workers chiseled huge high-quality limestones for the construction of the Second Temple, including the Western Wall, has been uncovered in Jerusalem, the Israel Antiquities Authority announced Sunday.

The quarry, which is located four kilometers northwest of the Old City of Jerusalem in the city's outlying Ramat Shlomo neighborhood, was used 2,000 years ago by dozens of King Herod's workers at the site during the construction of the Second Temple walls, archeologist Yuval Baruch said.

"This unique and sensational find is the first Second Temple quarry ever found," he said...

The use of these enormous high quality stones during the construction of the Temple Mount compound is what maintained the stability of the structure over thousands of years, without requiring the use of plaster or cement.

The quarrying of each stone block was done in stages, according to Irina Zilberbod, the excavation director.

First, deep narrow channels were hewn around all four sides of the block, thereby isolating it from the surrounding bedrock surface. Then, using a hammer, the stonecutters inserted a row of cleaving stakes in the bottom part of the block until a fissure was created and the stone was detached.

A 5-kg. iron tool which was used by King Herod's workers - probably Jewish slaves - and was likely forgotten at the site was discovered intact beneath large stones in the middle of the excavations, Baruch said

Herod's Temple Quarry Found

By SEAN GAFFNEY, Sept 24, 2007

...Baruch said coins and pottery found in the quarry confirm the stone was used during the period of Herod's expansion of the Temple Mount in 19 B.C.

But researchers said the strongest piece of evidence was found wedged into one of the massive cuts in the white limestone - an iron stake used to split the stone.

Excellent article: "The Blood-Red Moon, the Temple Mount and the Bible"

By Bill Koenig

August 28, 2007, had very revealing headlines: A Blood-Red Moon Rises over North America, Olmert Offers Temple Mount Sovereignty to the Palestinians, Olmert and Abbas Meet on Israel's Land and Jerusalem, Bush Says Iran's Actions Could Lead to a Shadow of a Nuclear Holocaust, and Bush Arrives in New Orleans for his 15th Post-Katrina Visit

These were the news headlines on the day of a total lunar eclipse that produced a "blood-red" moon, the second one in seven years with a connection to the Temple Mount.

A total lunar eclipse/"blood-red" moon occurred on July 16, 2000, while U.S. President Bill Clinton, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Palestinian President Yasser Arafat were at the Middle East Summit at Camp David. The sticking point that caused the summit to fail had to do with who would have sovereignty over the Temple Mount — the Israelis or the Palestinian Arabs.

During this year's total lunar eclipse/"blood-red" moon of Aug. 28, 2007, that rose over North America, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered the Palestinians sovereignty over the Temple Mount. What was so incredible about the timing of this offer is that it didn't take place days, weeks or months after the "blood-red" moon but on the very same day. In other words, the Temple Mount’s sovereignty was a central focus during both total lunar eclipse/ "blood-red" moons in 2000 and this week....

Extraterrestrial impact wiped out life during Ice Age

Washington, Sept 25 : Extraterrestrial impact possibly wiped out all life forms on Earth during the Ice Age, a new study by a team of international researchers, including two Northern Arizona University geologists, has revealed.

...a new study has reported evidence of a comet or low-density object barrelling toward Earth, exploding in the upper atmosphere and triggering a devastating swath that wiped out most of the large animals, their habitat and humans of that period.

...the research team has offered evidence of a comet, two and a half to three miles in diameter, that detonated 30 to 60 miles above the earth, triggering a massive shockwave, firestorms and a subsequent drastic cooling effect across most of North America and northern Europe....

They said the evidence for multiple detonations came from a four-inch-thick "black mat" of carbon-rich material that appears as far north as Canada, Greenland and Europe to as far south as the Channel Islands off the coast of California and eastward to the Carolinas....


By Marilyn Agee

In "Things to Come," Dwight Pentecost wrote about the identity of the 24 elders. He quoted Harry Ironside, who wrote about them in his "Lectures on the Revelation."

Ironside said, "The elders in heaven represent the whole heavnly priesthood--that is, all the redeemed who have died in the past, or who shall be king at the Lord's return...The church of the present age and Old Testament saints alike are included. All are priests. All worship. There were twelve patriarchs in Israel, and twelve apostles introducing the new dispensation. THE TWO TOGETHER WOULD GIVE THE COMPLETE FOUR AND TWENTY."

I agree with Ironside, but Pentecost did not. He was so driven to keep Israel and the Church separate that he complained that "This view unites Israel and the church into one company, without distinction, at the time of the rapture."

However, I can't forget that 1 Cor 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OR GENTILES, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." I remember that Heb 11:40 says, "God having provided some better thing for us, THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT."

All saints are changed, made perfect, made immortal, at the "last trump", the Pre-Wrath Rapture, not at the first "trump of God", the Pre-Trib Rapture.

1 Thess 4:16,17 tells about the first-trump Rapture. It says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Cor. 15:51-53 tells about the last-trump Rapture. It says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Dwight Pentecost seems to have been very sure that he was right. He wrote, "there seem to be reasons for rejecting the interpretation that Israel is a part of the scene here. In the first place, this view is based on the assumption that Israel and the church are both resurrected at the time of the rapture and translated together into the heavenlies. The problem of Israel's resurrection will be considered later, but certain Scriptures (Dan. 12:1-2; Isa. 26:19; John 11:24) indicate that Israel's resurrection is to be connected with the second advent of Messiah to the earth. THUS ISRAEL COULD NOT BE TRANSLATED.... Israel could not be resurrected and rewarded until the close of her age. Since these twenty-four elders are resurrected, rewarded, and glorified, and the church is the only body that has experienced these things as yet in the program of God, THE SAINTS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT COULD NOT BE INCLUDED IN THE GROUP."

Dan. 12:1,2 says, "And at that time (when the False Prophet shall come to his end, Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (Day of God's Wrath), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered (i.e., in the Pre-Wrath Rapture), every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Isa. 26:19-21 says, "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."

John 11:24 says, "Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Pentecost thinks that Israel will be resurrected at the time of the Second Advent and will live on Earth during the Millennium. However, Heb 11:13-16 says of certain named Old Testament saints, including Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abraham, "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But NOW THEY DESIRE A BETTER COUNTRY, THAT IS, AN HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city" (the heavenly New Jerusalem).

Concerning the elders, Pentecost wrote, "Their position suggests that they represent the church. In Revelation 4, the elders are seated on thrones, surrounding the throne of God, intimately associated with the One seated on His throne. The church has been promised this very position...nor could it be true of Israel, for Israel will be subjected to the authority of the throne, not associated with its authority."

Pentecost thought that because of the elders white raiment, crowns, and worship, "they represent the church." He said, "Their intimate knowledge of the program of God suggests that the elders represent the church.....Their association with Christ in a priestly ministry suggests that they represent the church."

That's true, but I think the 24 elders are the 12 patriarchs of Israel plus the 12 apostles of Israel who formed the backbone of the early church.

In Rev. 4:1, John is caught up to Heaven. He is member of both Israelites and the Church, bridging the gap. In Rev. 4:4, right after the Rapture, John and 23 other elders are crowned and sitting on their thrones. I think all 24 are Israelites, but 12 also represent the Church. Therefore, the 24 elders can represent all the saints taking place in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

The raptured saints are out of every nation, not just from Israel. Yet, Israelites seem to be representing these saints out of every nation on Earth. Rev. 5:8-10 says, "...saints. And they sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED US to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, on or over) the earth." The elders are not the only ones that sing the new song, for this group is out of all nations.

Psa 149:1 says, "Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a NEW SONG, and his praise in the congregation of saints."

Incoming e-mail, Re: The War Scroll, Pro and Con 1360 amazing info!

I forgot to mention this in the last letter; the War Scroll, like Revelations, says the Church will fight along side Israel and the Angels against the forces of Satan in the last battle. The following is an excerpt from the War Scroll:

"You in Your holy dwelling, and the number of the holy ones is in the abode of Your glory. Mercies of blessing [ . . . ] and Your covenant of peace You engraved for them with a stylus of life in order to reign over them for all time (The Cross, New Covenant), Commissioning the hosts of Your elect (Israel) by their thousands and tens of thousands together with Your holy ones (the Church) and Your angels, and directing them in battle so as to condemn the earthly adversaries by trial with Your judgments. With the elect of heaven they shall prevail. And You, O God, are awesome in the glory of Your dominion, and the company of Your holy ones is in our midst for eternal support. We shall direct our contempt at kings, derision and disdain at mighty men. For the Lord is holy, and the King of Glory is with us together with the holy ones (the Church). Mighty men (Saints) and a host of angels (Michael and Company) are with our commissioned forces (The Remnant forces of Israel). The Hero of War is with our company, and the host of His spirits is with our steps. Our horsemen are as the clouds and as the mist covering the earth, "and as a steady downpour shedding judgment on all her offspring. Rise up, O Hero, take Your captives, O Glorious One, take "Your plunder, O You who do valiantly. Lay Your hand upon the neck of Your enemies, and Your foot upon the backs of the slain. Crush the nations, Your adversaries, and may Your sword "devour guilty flesh. Fill Your land with glory, and Your inheritance with blessing." Maranatha

My reply

Thanks much for the information and for making the font large enough that I don't have to use the magnifier to read it. I use Ariel Black 12 when I can. Sometimes the mail program won't change though.

The battle sounds like Armageddon to me too. Rev 19:19-21 says, "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

R.B. Thieme thinks each of us will bump one demon. That makes me wonder if we will replace the fallen angels in the government of God.

This much we know. Rev 20:6 says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years". Luke 19:17-19 says, "And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities." Agape

   Pro and Con 1362   Or Return   Home

Contact me for more information at:

Send me e-mail now

8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (951) 653-4110

© 1996-2007, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 1-2-07