Pro and Con 1395

Posted 3-14-08

Incoming e-mail, Re: Rosh Hashanah in 5BC

Concerning the date of birth of Christ you use of Monday, Sep. 4th, 5 BC, I can assure you that all the astronomical data supports the fact that the new crescent Moon would have been easily seen on the evening of Sunday, Sep. 3rd, 5 BC, making this date/time the beginning of Rosh Hashanah, Tishri 1, 3756. A detailed data sheet for the Lunar/Solar data for the astronomical new Moon (Sep. 1st, 20:18) and precise details for the Solar and Lunar times clearly indicates that on Sep. 3rd, sunset was at 18:03 hrs, Moonset was at 18:56 hrs, the crescent was 3.8% illuminated at 18:45 and still 1.5d above the horizon making the observation relatively easy by all historical standards. The Sun was then 9.5d below the horizon and 22d from the Moon. The Moon was 4.5d East from the star Spica, Virgo. At this position it would not be considered "in the feet".

Now, by the following morning, Monday,Sep. 4th, 5BC, still Tishri 1, after Sunrise (5:13am)and then Moonrise (7:34am), the Moons position would have moved enough (13d East of Spica) to be considered "in the feet" area of Virgo and at this point would meet the conditions of Rev. 12 "clothed in the Sun with the Moon at her feet" and it would still be Tishri 1, the daylight portion until 6:00pm that evening. This scenario would support your position; however, to say that Tishri 1 began the evening of Monday, Sep. 4th, 5 BC is not supported by the astronomy. By that evening, the Moon was 9% illuminated and a full 34d from the Sun, 16.5 East of Spica and actually within the boundaries of Libra. This would be three full days from the Sep. 1st astronomical new Moon time and I know of no precedent for this interpretation.

*Data text file attached (LunarSolarData5BC)

As you know, I still strongly support the choice of 9/11/3BC as the better date given all conditions and my other research; but, in the interests of your own research provide the above information. Gary

My reply

Thanks much. I am so glad you have precise data so we can be sure which night it was.

The night of Sept. 3/4, BC 5, is perfect. The only midnight of Tishri 1, 3756, would be 6 hours after Tishri 1 began at 6 PM on Sept. 3. I think Jesus was born during that 12 hours of night, i.e., between 6 PM on Sept. 3 to 6 AM on Sept. 4. Rev 12:1-5 says, "there appeared a great wonder in heaven (i.e., on Tishri 1, 3756); a woman (Virgo) CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, AND THE MOON UNDER HER FEET, and upon (epi, over) her head a crown of twelve stars (Corona Borealis, the Northern Crown): And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon (Satan), having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. (Herod tried to kill him, but failed) And she brought forth a man child (Jesus), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron (i.e., during the Millennium): and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Jesus ascended on Resurrection Day, came back, then ascended again 40 days later.

Here is my chart.

BEGINNING OF TEMPLE CONSTRUCTION TO THE CRUCIFIXION

20 BC, Herod began to build Temple in 18th year of his reign, which began with the fall month of Dios in the Syro-Macedonian calendar (Hebrew 3741)
19 BC, 1st year of Temple construction (3742)
18 BC, 2nd year of Temple construction (3743)
17 BC, 3rd year of Temple construction (3744)
16 BC, 4th year of Temple construction (3745, Sabbatic yr)
15 BC, 5th year of Temple construction (3746)
14 BC, 6th year of Temple construction (3747)
13 BC, 7th year of Temple construction (3748)
12 BC, 8th year of Temple construction (3749)
11 BC, 9th year of Temple construction (3750)
10 BC, 10th year of Temple construction (3751)
9 BC, 11th year of Temple construction (3752, Sabbatic yr)
8 BC, 12 th year of Temple construction (3753)
7 BC, 13th year of Temple construction (3754)
6 BC, 14th year of Temple construction (3755)
5 BC, Jesus born night of Sun/Mon, Sept. 3/4 (Tishri 1, 3756) 15th year of Temple construction
4 BC, Jesus' 1st birthday (Tishri 1, 3757) 16th year of Temple construction
3 BC, Jesus' 2nd birthday (Tishri 1, 3758) 17th year of Temple construction
2 BC, Jesus' 3rd birthday (Tishri 1, 3759, Sabbatic yr) 18th year of Temple construction
1 BC, Jesus' 4th birthday (Tishri 1, 3760) 19th year of Temple construction
1 AD, Jesus' 5th birthday (Tishri 1, 3761) 20th year of Temple construction
2 AD, Jesus' 6th birthday (Tishri 1, 3762) 21st year of Temple construction
3 AD, Jesus' 7th birthday (Tishri 1, 3763) 22nd year of Temple construction
4 AD, Jesus' 8th birthday (Tishri 1, 3764) 23rd year of Temple construction
5 AD, Jesus' 9th birthday (Tishri 1, 3765) 24th year of Temple construction
6 AD, Jesus' 10th birthday (Tishri 1, 3766, Sabbatic yr) 25th year of Temple construction
7 AD, Jesus' 11th birthday (Tishri 1, 3767) 26th year of Temple construction
8 AD, Jesus' 12th birthday (Tishri 1, 3768) Jesus taken to the Temple, 27th year of Temple construction 9 AD, Jesus' 13th birthday (Tishri 1, 3769) 28th year of Temple construction
10 AD, Jesus' 14th birthday (Tishri 1, 3770) 29th year of Temple construction, Tiberius designated sole heir of Augustus on coin
11 AD, Jesus' 15th birthday (Tishri 1, 3771) 30th year of Temple construction
12 AD, Jesus' 16th birthday (Tishri 1, 3772) 31st year of Temple construction, 1st yr of Tiberius, Co-Rex with Augustus, but sole ruler over Judea
13 AD, Jesus' 17th birthday (Tishri 1, 3773, Sabbatic yr) 32nd year of Temple construction, 2nd yr of Tiberius as Co-Rex, coin minted with head of Augustus on one side and Tiberius on the other
14 AD, Jesus' 18th birthday (Tishri 1, 3774) 33rd yr of Temple construction, 3rd yr of Tiberius, Sole ruler after death of Augustus
15 AD, Jesus' 19th birthday (Tishri 1, 3775) 34th yr of Temple construction, 4th yr of Tiberius
16 AD, Jesus' 20th birthday (Tishri 1, 3776) 35th yr of Temple construction, 5th yr of Tiberius
17 AD, Jesus' 21th birthday (Tishri 1, 3777) 36th yr of Temple construction, 6th yr of Tiberius
18 AD, Jesus' 22nd birthday (Tishri 1, 3778) 37th yr of Temple construction, 7th yr of Tiberius
19 AD, Jesus' 23rd birthday (Tishri 1, 3779) 38th yr of Temple construction, 8th yr of Tiberius
20 AD, Jesus' 24th birthday (Tishri 1, 3780, Sabbatic yr) 39th yr of Temple construction, 9th yr of Tiberius
21 AD, Jesus' 25th birthday (Tishri 1, 3781) 40th yr of Temple construction, 10th yr of Tiberius
22 AD, Jesus' 26th birthday (Tishri 1, 3782) 41st yr of Temple construction, 11th yr of Tiberius
23 AD, Jesus' 27th birthday (Tishri 1, 3783) 42nd yr of Temple construction, 12th yr of Tiberius
24 AD, Jesus' 28th birthday (Tishri 1, 3784) 43rd yr of Temple construction, 13th yr of Tiberius
25 AD, Jesus' 29th birthday (Tishri 1, 3785) 44th year of Temple construction, 14th yr of Tiberius
26 AD, Jesus' 30th birthday (Tishri 1, 3786) 45th year of Temple construction, Jesus baptized near 30th birthday, 15th yr of Tiberius
27 AD, Jesus' 31st birthday (Tishri 1, 3787, Sabbatic yr) 46th yr of Temple construction, 1st Passover of Jesus' ministry, Jesus read Isa. 61.1 on Tishri 10, announcing Jubilee Yr that would start next Nisan 1
28 AD, Jesus' 32nd birthday (Tishri 1, 3788, Jubilee Yr began Nisan 1) 2nd Passover
29 AD, Jesus' 33rd birthday (Tishri 1, 3789) 3rd Passover, Leap Yr
30 AD, Jesus' 33.5 years old, Crucified (Thursday, Nisan 13, 3790) Preparation Day before 4th Passover, resurrected Sunday, Nisan 16

I did a search on Google and turned up a surprise on Wikipedia. Look at the last of this paragraph.

"The Temple was destroyed by Roman troops under Titus during the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE. (The most complete ancient account of this event is The Jewish War by Flavius Josephus.) The Roman and Byzantine governors built palaces out of the rubble, as well as a Temple of Jupiter and a Church, but it was not until the Dome of the Rock was built between 687 and 691 that the last remnants of the Temple were taken down." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod's_Temple).

Then the location of the Temple must have been known until the Dome of the Rock was built. The builders would have known that the Temple was not built over the rock that is now under the Dome of the Rock. I wonder if that knowledge carried over to when the Al Aqsa Mosque was built. Neither are on top of the place where the foundation of the Temple would have been. I think it was between the two, where trees and the Al Kas fountain are now.

"In 20 BCE, Herod announced that the old temple would be torn down and replaced with something truly magnificent. The Cohanim, or Jewish priesthood, as well as the rest of the population, were skeptical, requiring Herod to quarry all the stones required for the project before the destruction of the Post-Exile structure could begin.
"An agreement was made between Herod and the Jews--the sacrificial rituals, called korbanot, were to be continued unabated for the entire time of construction, and the Temple itself would be constructed by the Cohanim....

"Ground level at the time was at least 20 ft. (6m) below the current level, as can be seen by walking the Western Wall tunnels....

"On September 25 2007 Yuval Baruch, archaeologist with the Israeli Antiquities Authority announced the discovery of a quarry compound which may have provided King Herod with the stones to build his Temple on the Temple Mount. Coins, pottery and an iron stake found proved the date of the quarrying to be about 19 B.C. Archaeologist Ehud Nesher confirmed that the large outlines of the stone cuts is evidence that it was a massive public project worked by hundreds of slaves. [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod's_Temple).

I found some interesting things on Doig's Biblical Chronology too. It says, "the main Temple complex was completed in late 30. This is determined by the completion of the Hanuyot colonnade, which is in the Temple precincts, most likely the Royal Portico. Then the Sanhedrin was transferred to there from the Lishkat Hagazit, "Chamber of Hewn Stone." This occurred, according to Talmudic sources, forty years before the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE (Sanhedrin 41:2; Abodah-Zarah 8:2)."....

"According to Josephus the eighteenth year from Herod beginning his rule in Jerusalem would have begun Nisan 1, 20 BCE....

"December of 27 CE was forty-six complete years later. According to the Syro-Macedonian calendar by which Herod reckoned his reign the forty-six years began with the fall month of Dios in 20 BCE. The forty-six years were complete by Dios of 27 CE." (http://www.doig.net/NTC13.htm) Agape

Incoming e-mail

One of the great mysteries to me in studying end time prophecy is the fact that it is quite evident that the major players are asia, africa and europe. So what happened to us?

My reply

The only places in the Bible that indicate the USA seems to be 2 Sam. 7:23 and I Chron. 17:21, and they are essentially the same.

2 Sam. 7:23 says, "what one (echad, UNITED) NATION in the earth (the United States) is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt".

1 Chron. 17:21 says, "what one (echad, UNITED) NATION in the earth (the United States) is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

Because the Canaanites worshiped false gods, God gradually gave those that believed in him the land. In those days, Israel became one united nation, under God.

As it was in Israel, so it was in the United States. Because the Indians worshiped false gods, God gradually gave those that believed in him the land. The US is one united nation, under God.

The Puritans came over here to establish a place where one could worship God as they thought fitting. They wanted religious freedom. They didn't want to be forced to belong to any certain church group. That's why there is a division of Church and State here. This united nation is strongly pro Israel, to "do for you (Israel) great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people".

Right now, the "terrible" seems to be encouraging giving up land for peace, when there is no peace. Israel needs defensible borders. To do otherwise invites those that do not believe in the God of the Jews to attack Israel.

Israel should never have given away her rights to the Temple Mount after God gave it to them. Israel is in trouble today because she failed to recognize her Messiah when he was teaching in the land during the last Jubilee (28 AD) before the city and Temple were burned in 70 AD. However, she is partly blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in.

2 Cor. 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ."

2 Cor. 4:4 says, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

One of these days John 8:32,36 will come true for them. It says, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free....If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." Agape

Incoming e-mail

Thanks so much for sharing that with me. It is an exciting time to be alive for the believers. I was saved in 1982 and I am sixty years old now. Two of the sources of Gods word that He used to bring me to Jesus was an old radio broadcast, J.Vernon McGhee, thru the bible and the book written by Hal Lindsay, Late great planet earth. After I was saved, I purchased the set of books thru the bible and it opened up the Word of God to me in a wonderful way. Pastor McGhee had a marvelous down to earth way of sharing Gods Word. He said put the cookies on the bottom shelf so the kiddies can reach them. lol

My reply

You're so welcome. I'm 79. I loved to hear McGhee on the radio too. Agape

Incoming e-mail

Those that criticize the teaching of prophecy have no idea how many souls like myself that are saved by those teachings. When I found out what was ahead for me as a lost person, I became truly frightened and it wasnt long before I was crying out to Jesus to save me.

My reply

I appreciate your sharing that with me.

On his way home from Japan after the war, my husband had prayed and asked the Lord for a Christian wife. The Lord had me in mind. He had to get my Dad transferred to Holston Ordinance Works, Kingsport, TN, from Vigo Ordinance Works south of Terre Haute, Indiana. Then, he had to get both of our families to move out of town to staff quarters on the plant site 4 miles out of town. Ed arrived home after being discharged from the Army to find that his family had moved, but was told where they lived. We met when we both got off the city bus and walked together up the steep winding road to the Staff Quarters.

God knew what I was going to do before I did. He had a definite plan for my life, and Ed has backed me up the whole way. As soon as I finished my 3rd book, he took me down to the mall and signed me up at Internet in the Mall. Within a month of learning that there was such a thing as HTML, I uploaded to my Web site. That was in 1996, but I'm getting ahead of my story.

Some time before 1960, I had been a Christian for a long time, but had never sat down and read the whole Bible, just parts of it. Some Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door and wanted me to study the Bible with them. I would not study with anyone, much less with them, until I had read the Bible for myself. I did not want to be led unsuspecting into error.

I wanted a solid background to judge things against. I read the Bible. I read everything I was interested in at Bethany Baptist Chuch library. Then, I got my library card from BIOLA's Library. I had questions I could find no answers to, even after reading about an 18" stack of books from BIOLA's Seminary Collection every week for the next 7 years.

I didn't find out what the cherubim and flaming sword were from all that reading, but I got a sound background to judge other things against. I asked to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I asked the Lord to help me understand everything, all the deep things, everything he wanted man to know about the Bible.

I stopped reading BIOLA's books, and studied mostly with my Bible and Strong's Concordance, trusting the Lord to help along the way. I finally found out what cherubim and the flaming sword represent, and have never stopped studying since. When the Bible gets into you, you can't leave it alone. After all, it is God-breathed. He helps you unravel one puzzle after another. There is so much in that one small book that God had to inspire it. No man could possibly have done that. There is always something else fascinating to find out. There is no end to it. Agape

Incoming e-mail

Thanks so much for sharing your testimony with me Marilyn. I wanted to suggest a book to read that has really challenged my belief in the opening of the first five seals in revelation. The name of the book is Earthquake Resurrection by David Lowe. The best part is regardless if the most common view taught today or this one with a little different slant, both agree that there is going to be a catching up of believers and a seven year tribulation to follow. Have a nice evening.
---
> > an excerpt from the 11th chapter of Earthquake Resurrection: Supernatural Catalyst for the Coming Global Catastrophe by David W. Lowe.

I Pet 3:22 who went into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels and authorities and powers subject to him.

Therefore, according to these verses, Jesus should be at Godís right hand to open the seven-sealed scroll. But he is not there in Revelation chapter 5. The call for someone to open the sealed scroll becomes even more perplexing when one considers the following passage from Hebrews:

Heb 10:12 But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Heb 10:13 where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet.

This is a key point. Not only did Christ sit down at the right hand of God after his death, resurrection, and ascension, but he must remain there until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. Now consider Revelation chapter 5 in this light. If what is described in this chapter takes place in the future, then where is Jesus, and why isnít he seated at Godís right hand? Why is there a call throughout the universe for him? Where is Jesus hiding?

The clear answer is that the scene at the opening of Revelation chapter 5 does not take place in the future. In the vision that John was being shown, Jesus had not yet arrived at the throne from earth. Rather than a description of the throne room scene after the future resurrection, transformation, and catching-up event, this is a vision of the scene at Godís throne just after the ascension of Jesus Christ and just before he took his seat at the right hand of God.

My reply

> > Rather than a description of the throne room scene after the future resurrection, transformation, and catching-up event, this is a vision of the scene at Godís throne just after the ascension of Jesus Christ and just before he took his seat at the right hand of God.

To me, that is impossible. All of Revelation is written as if Jesus is standing on the pinnacle of the Pre-Trib Rapture and looking both backward and forward to tell us of events.

Rev 1:19 gives us the way this whole miracle play titled "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is organized. Jesus said, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., before the Rapture), and the things which are (at the time of the Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter" (after the Rapture).

Rev. 4:1 gives us the Rapture and then indicates that the part that shall be hereafter the Rapture is beginning. It says, "After this (i.e., after the things before the Rapture) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither (things at the Rapture), and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER" (hereafter the Rapture).

Remember that Jesus is God. 2 Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself". In John 10:30, Jesus said, "I and my Father are one."

Rev 4:2,3 says, "And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne (one throne) was set in heaven, and ONE (Jesus, who is God) sat on the throne. And he (Jesus) that sat was to look upon like a jasper (FIRST stone of the Breastplate) and a sardine stone (LAST stone of the Breastplate, i.e., he's both the first and the last, YHWH and Jesus): and there was a rainbow (Saturn's rings) round about the throne (on Saturn), in sight like unto an emerald" (the stone that represented Judah). Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

In Rev 1:8, right after the Introduction of "The Revelation of Jesus Christ," Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (YHWH) and the ending (Jesus), saith the Lord, which is (at the time of the Rapture), and which was (before the Rapture), and which is to come (after the Rapture), the Almighty."

In Rev 22:13,16, Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the FIRST and the LAST....I am the root (YHWH) AND the offspring of David" (JESUS).

Eze. 1:1,26-28 says of the throne of the God/man Jesus Christ, "...the heavens were opened, and I SAW VISIONS OF GOD....And above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads (farther out in space than the 4 terrestrial planets) was the likeness of a THRONE, as the appearance of a SAPPHIRE stone (meaning dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear; i.e., Jesus' September birth stone, meaning heaven): and upon the likeness of the THRONE (Saturn, Heaven)was the likeness as the appearance of a MAN (Jesus who is also GOD) above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber (Saturn is amber), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness (Saturn's ring system) round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about (i.e., both the rainbow and Saturn's rings are made of ice crystals). This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD (YHWH)."

Think about Isa. 44:6. It says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first, AND I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Ex. 24:10 says, "they saw THE GOD OF ISRAEL (i.e., YHWH King of Israel, who is also YHWH of hosts, the Redeemer, Jesus Christ): and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a SAPPHIRE stone, and as it were the body of heaven (heavenly body, i.e., Saturn) in his (its) clearness.

Rev 4:4 says, "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats (lit., thrones): and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." One of these 24 elders is John, who was just called up to Heaven. The others are the 12 patriarchs and the other 11 apostles of Israel.

Rev 4:6 says, "And before the throne (i.e., on Saturn) there was a sea of glass like unto crystal (Saturn's rings made of ice crystals): and in the midst of the throne (on Saturn), and round about the throne, were four beasts (moving things) full of eyes before and behind." These four moving things are the giant planets, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune.

Rev 4:7,8 continues, "And the first beast was like a lion (east), and the second beast like a calf (west), and the third beast had a face as a man (south), and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle (north, these are the faces on the four flags Israel placed at the four cardinal compass points around their camp in the desert). And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him (they are the seraphims, which means burners, i.e., the gas planets); and they were full of eyes (full orbs, spheres) within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come."

Isa. 6:1-3 also tells us of the seraphims. It says, "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne (on Saturn), high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims (the giant planets): each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly (i.e., they orbit). And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory."

Rev 4:10,11 says, "The four and twenty elders fall down before him (Jesus/God) that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O LORD (i.e., YHWH/Jesus), to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

John 1:1-3 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Heb. 1:2 says, "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds".

Rev 19:13 says, "And he (Jesus) was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called THE WORD OF GOD."

Since Jesus/God is sitting on the throne, Jesus is also symbolized as a Lamb. Rev 5:3-9 says, "And no man (i.e., no mere man) in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH (JESUS), THE ROOT OF DAVID (YHWH), hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE (on Saturn) and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb (Jesus) as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of GOD sent forth into all the earth. And he (THE LAMB) came and took the book out of the right hand of him (JESUS/GOD) that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the LAMB, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou (JESUS/GOD) art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and HAST REDEEMED US TO GOD BY THY BLOOD out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".

The Tribulation starts in Rev. 6. It is after the Rapture. Agape

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