Pro and Con 140, Uploaded 6-28-98

Incoming Email

We're still here, unfortunately, but again, my faith is not damaged, as it is in the Lord rather than in dates....I do know that the time is short, but not exactly HOW short.

I realize you can't fully respond to most of your e-mails, so I wanted to respond a bit more in depth to a mail posted on your P&C #132. I wanted to clarify a few things for this person in hopes that it would show them that Jesus knew exactly what He was talking about. Perhaps it will help this person find faith in our Lord and Savior.

He says:
> It's still not too late to admit that you were wrong...Are you going to keep
> predicting the end until you can do so no longer?

> Fortunately, you are in good company. Jesus said "Verily I say unto you,
> that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. (Mark
> 13:30)" He was wrong too.

You already corrected this person with regards to you being a prophet, so I'll just concentrate on Jesus' prediction.

If you will read the whole prophesy in Mark (also in Luke and Matthew), in context, you will see that Jesus starts out his prophetic words by responding to his disciples comments regarding how magnificent the temple is. Jesus said that not one stone would be left upon another. This was literally fulfilled one generation later (prediction was made around 30AD, and was fulfilled when Rome destroyed the temple around 70AD - literally leaving no stone upon the another).

Jesus' words that "this generation will shall not pass, till all things be done" refers to everthing He prophesied, however, in context, it reads as the generation THAT SEES THESE THINGS. The generation who heard His words and saw the temple also saw it being literally destroyed, just as Jesus predicted. Also, the generation which sees the Israel become a nation and "grow leaves" (gain territories), will not pass until all the prophesies of THAT generation be fulfilled - meaning, all the "end-times" prophesies given. We know that he is speaking of a 40-year generation, as the shadow of the "end-times" prophesies - the destruction of the temple (this being a small part of the the predicted destruction of the day, actually) - was fulfilled in a 40-year generation. So too will be fulfilled the rest of his prophesies regarding this age.

However you decide to count the years, all must be fulfilled by 2007 - 40 years after Israel grew "leaves", therefore, we know that the rapture - while seemingly even more difficult to date as of late - must happen before the 7 year tribulation, or by 2001. So, we know do know the season, but are still struggling to find the exact date. Perhaps we'll never know the exact date? I simply don't know, nor is it relevant to my faith, or the fact that Marilyn's page has really helped me to step up my watching. It has also made me realize a desire to minister to others in a way that I never really thought I would be able. I'm going to step out in faith and wait for God to show up.

I hope and pray that you will not use failed date setting to turn you away from God. Jesus came to this earth to teach a people who have gone astray. Many, perhaps most, of the religious leaders of that day taught not the spirit of the law of God, but men's traditions. Jesus came to set this straight. But more than this, He came to show God's love in a way that I doubt many of us truly understand. He gave His only Son over to a fallen people to be killed in a horrible way, so that the world would have a way out of their bondage to sin, and could live with God forever.

I find it interesting that people are apt to believe so many different things - from Satanism to religions where everything is a god, to UFOs being the saviors of mankind - and yet find it so difficult to believe in a Holy God who created the world, one who we don't have to strain to reach, but one who reached down to us and offers us (free of charge) a home with Him. I think the stumbling block for many is their refusal to believe that man's nature is fallen, which is also ironic considering the daily news. This too, is a sign of the times.

Incoming Email

...You are in my prayers. I am writing in regards to the email you posted in P&C 139. This person states "Jesus didn't come to save the Gentiles"...and "nothing was ever prophesied about this body of Christ"......No??? Paul seemed to think so.....What about Romans 15:9 And that the GENTILES might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the GENTILES and sing unto thy name. 10 and again he saith Rejoice all ye GENTILES with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord all ye GENTILES; and laud him all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith There shall be a root of Jesse and he that shall rise to reign over the GENTILES; in him shall the GENTILES trust.

Further down in his email he says "I tell you true by the mouth of God here and now...." He has just made himself a prophet....something I don't ever recall hearing you do.

And thirdly he says "The Bride of Christ is Israel." Well according to Ephesians 5:32 and 11 Cor:11:2 the Church is the Bride of Christ. I realize that YOU already know all of this but I just wanted to send it in case you might put it up for him to see.

Yes, Christ' sacrifice is sufficient but He himself admonished us to lay up our treasure in heaven. He is coming SOON! I pray this person will be ready. Keep up the good fight of faith, Marilyn. Much Love

Incoming Email

I am so sorry that you are being treated like you are. I can't believe other Christians are calling you the names they are. Because of your ministry my family has a renewed love and zeal for the Lord... I know other s who have come to know the Lord because of this web site...this is from Satan? I don't think so. You told everyone from the beginning that this was not a "thus sayeth the Lord" but your opinion. You have done nothing wrong, but you have encouraged us to do what scripture says....to test every word, to make sure we were living the kinds of lives we should be....to make sure that Christ is our first love....etc., etc. If that is wrong, then someone who is accusing you please tell me what is right. God bless you.

Incoming Email

And the verse, "the harvest is past...summer has ended....we are not saved..."[ from Jeremiah] - this indicates that SOMEONE IS SAVED and someone isn't!!! This to me, sounds like a lamentation that somebody got LEFT BEHIND! :-)

My reply

It does sound that way, and the next verse (Jer. 8:21) says, "astonishment hath taken hold on me."

Incoming Email

> ...I'm not here to call into question your faith. I disagree with a partial Rapture theory
> because it introduces an element of legalism or "good enough" that is not Biblical.

Then what prize was Paul running the race to win? Read I Cor. 9:24-27 and Phil. 3:14. Surely you don't think he could lose his salvation. Other than that, how could he be a "castaway"?

> I disagree that the 10 virgins represent the Church...I believe the 10 virgins represent
> all peoples, and the process of separation that will occur whenever the Lord comes.

When the Lord comes first, he comes to the Church. Surely only those forgiven their sins when they believed could be called virgins.

> I disagree that the Fig Tree Parable is an allagory for Israel

Joel 1:6,7 says, "For a nation is come up upon MY LAND...He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my FIG TREE."

Hos. 9:10 says, "I found ISRAEL like grapes in the wilderness; I saw YOUR FATHERS AS THE FIRSTRIPE IN THE FIG TREE at her first time."

Ezek. 36:8 says, "But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel."

> and hence "the" sign of the End of the Age...I believe the fig tree parable simply is
> Jesus' way of stating that "when you see all these things happening, know that the end is
> near (just like know that when the fig tree grows leaves, summer is near)". It is no
> different than me telling someone "when you see the corn stalks getbrown, know that the corn
> harvest is near". Jesus, in my opinion, was using the fig tree parable in a comparative
> sense as opposed to an allagorical sense.
>
> I believe in reading Matthew 24, Paul's letters, and Revelation, one can make as equally
> convincing case that this world will continue to get worse...we will all suffer through
> tribulations. But a time will come, when
> Christ specifically mentioned a sign to look for, that He will come on the
> clouds of Heaven, gathering His elect from the four winds (all elect,
> including those in Heaven and earth), and "we who are alive and who remain
> will be caught up in the clouds and so be with the Lord forever".
>
> There are many layers of interpretation in the Bible. The first and
> foremost layer is one of simply reading the surface text. Christ told us
> all things...therefore, they would be revealed completely in the surface
> text...not in some "digging" and "fitting" manner.

Isa. 28:13 says, "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept...line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

Prov. 2:2-5 says, "So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for HID TREASURES; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God."

> We all look through the mirror darkly. We see such a small slice of time
> that there's absolutely no way we can know if the events of this day are
> specifically prophectic occurances coming to pass. We only know for sure in
> hindsight. There's NO WAY of knowing whether we have only 9 more years to
> pack in all the end time events....we may have 90 years or 900 years.
>
> All of this Bible Code study, snow in the mountains, wheat in the fields,
> Bibical numerics, gematria, comets, etc... is just background noise, at best
> irrelevant and at it's worst downright wrong.

Just interesting sidelights.

> The signs that will be witnessed relative to the end-times will be witnessed by all...not
> just a select few. If you're a Christian, you are part of the bride of
> Christ....you are one of the elect....your salvation and "rapture" is assured.

Then why are the Laodiceans spewed out of His mouth? They have to be in the Body of Christ to be spewed out.

> On the other side of eternity, we will be rewarded for our efforts
> here, but we shall be saved, either in death or in a "rapture". Only those
> who do not profess Jesus as the Lord and Savior, and the Only Way to
> salvation and eternal life will endure great tribulation and a destiny of
> separation from God. Any other doctrine that proposes a "ranking" or
> "order" to gain eternal life is a wrong doctrine. If there was to be a
> distinction between what was needed to be "raptured", Christ would have said it.

Remember the wise and evil servants? Of the latter, Jesus said, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him off, i.e., spew him out of his mouth), and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers" (i.e., during the Tribulation) (Luke 12:46).

Peter gave us a list of things we should add to our faith to make our "calling and election sure." Here is his list, "that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature": virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly KINDNESS, charity (agape love). "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind (like the Laodiceans), and cannot see afar off (Heaven at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren (believers), give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (II Peter 1:4-11).

> You've been patient answering many e-mails. This was not sent to offend or
> to "preach"...simply to provide an insight.
>
> I guess God will oft-times pull the rug out from underneath us and drive us
> to our knees in order to prove that no matter how hard we try, there's no
> way we could ever even begin to understand the height, depth or width of God
> and His Love. Any attempts we use to proclaim "I've finally figured it
> out!" will often be met with our own disappointment and frustration.

Maybe so, but we are commanded to watch. I am watching. I am studying Scripture. I am trying hard to understand. Would we get more rewards for not trying than for trying?

Incoming Email

I have been reading some of the material on your web site, and I cannot understand how people like yourself, can continue to attempt to predict the dates of certain prophetic events, when Jesus Himself clearly stated that no one except God the Father Himself has this knowledge. (Mark 13:32-37). Jesus was referring specifically to His return in this passage.This type of predictive interpretation of prophecy has been in evidence since the early church, (and probably long before that) and history is littered with abortive attempts, to predict the time of Jesus return. This is bad enough, but much worse is the effect that it has had on many thousands of believers, who having been deceived, have abandoned their faith, when the promised event did not materialise. On top of this is the damage done to the credibility of the church and the Gospel in the eyes of the unbelieving world.

  With regard to your statements that the "Rapture" is imminent (any day now), the Holy Spirit through Paul corrected this particular deception in His 2nd letter to the Thessalonian church.

  1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,  2  That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  4  Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.  5  Remember you not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  6  And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.  7  For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now restrains [will restrain], until he be taken out of the way.  8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  9  [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,  10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (Ch 2)

  This passage clearly states that two things must happen before the events mentioned in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:50-52 happen.

  * There must be a falling away (apostasy). Because iniquity shall
abound, the love of many will grow cold.
* The man of sin, described in some detail must be revealed,
believers in Christ will see Him and understand who he is.
When, and only when this happens can we begin to expect the return of our Lord Jesus from heaven.
  I appreciate the amount of study of the scriptures, that you do, and have found many interesting points that I intend to look into more carefully, and I thank you for this insight. We must however embrace the full revelation and council of God, and the scriptures that I have quoted must be incorporated into our understanding along with every other scripture. If we leave any aside because they do not fit into our understanding, then it is our understanding which is defective. If your heart is honest toward the Lord, and His Word, then you must seriously consider these words. May God bless you in your quest for truth.

My reply

Mark 13:35-37 says, "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at EVEN, or at MIDNIGHT, or at the COCKCROWING, or in the MORNING: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Know is present tense, it does not mention the year or day at all, and are you sleeping? or watching?

If I had not been watching, I would not have recognized that the Six-Day War, when Israel grew leaves (Sinai, Gaza Strip, West Bank, and Golan Heights) was the Sign of the End of the Age. Later, I found Psa. 122:3,4 in the New Jerusalem Bible: "Jerusalem, built as a city, in ONE UNITED WHOLE, there the tribes go up, the tribes of Yahweh, A SIGN for Israel to give thanks to the name of Yahweh."

Mark 13:29,30 says, "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it (or he, and the Kingdom of God, Lu. 21:31) is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." 1967 + 40 = 2007. I think all the end-of-the-age prophecies must be fulfilled within this span of time. This places the years set aside for the shortened Tribulation as 5761, 5762, 5763, 5764, 5765, 5766, 5767 (our 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007). I think the first day of the Millennium is on the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768.

Since the Tribulation is the Seventieth Week of Daniel, it seems likely that it will begin on the Feast of Weeks. From the Feast of Weeks in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007 is 2300 days, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning. This fits Daniel 8:14 exactly. The 2300 days include the 1260 days that the Jews sacrifice at the temple and the 1040 days that they cannot because the False Prophet desecrates the temple Mid-Trib. Thus, the 2300 days shows us how much the Tribulation is shortened or no flesh would be saved (Mt. 24:22).

It seems that the doors (symbol of the two Raptures) are open from 1967 to 2007. The book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ is written as if the Pre-Trib Rapture is at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (Rev. 1:3; 22:10). Jesus signs off saying that he will come "quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (Rev. 2:5). The door set before the Philadelphians, the church of brotherly love, for whom Jesus has no words of condemnation, is already open (Rev. 3:8).

The Rapture of the Tribulation saints (Rev. 7:14) is between the breaking of the sixth seal in Rev. 6:12 and the seventh seal in Rev. 8. The sixth chapter ends with "the great day of his wrath is come..." and the seven trumpet judgments come when the 7th seal is broken. Therefore, the Rapture of the Tribulation Saints is on the Day of God's Wrath, but just before the seven trumpets begin to sound.

If Rapture II is in 5768 (our 2007), there is a chance that "ye shall have tribulation ten days (seasons, times, years)" (Rev. 2:10) shows the space between the two Raptures. This would place the Pre-Trib Rapture in 5758 (our 1997/1998).

The parable of the barren fig tree shows four years between Christ's coming to seek fruit on the fig tree and the decree to "cut it down." These years, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning, just might be 5758, 5759, 5760, and 5761 (our 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001). If true, this would agree with the two Raptures in 5758 and 5768.

Some of us are watching and waiting patiently to see if things will work out this way. What does it hurt to get ready, just in case. We don't want to be caught asleep when we should be watching.

Luke 12:45,46 is too strong a warning to sluff off. It says, "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him off), and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." (The unbelievers will go through the Tribulation). It looks like the Laodiceans and foolish virgins will too. Both face closed doors at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture (Mt. 25:10; Rev. 3:20). Mt. 24:51 says, "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." We don't want to be in that group.

> "nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  3 Let no man deceive you
> by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and
> that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

Properly, this is the Day of the Lord (see the NIV), which is the Millennium. The "falling away" is the apostasia, the departing, i.e., the Rapture. (See Beza's Translation, The Great Bible, The Coverdale Bible, Tyndale's Translation, etc.) The Wicked One cannot be revealed until the restrainer is taken out of the way.

> The man of sin, described in some detail must be revealed, believers in Christ will see
> Him and understand who he is. When, and only when this happens can we begin to expect
> the return of our Lord Jesus from heaven.

We are told to watch for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, not watch for the coming of the Wicked One.

Incoming Email

FWD: 9th of Av
The meaning of the 9th of Av (due this year as August 2, 1998 [Note: actually Aug. 1]) has been rattling in my mind. That is the date through history that has bad connotations for Israel, destruction of the temple x 2, ordered from England, in the 1200's, ordered from Spain, 9th of Av, 1492, and a great many other historical events with extremely negative connotations for Israel. (taken from Grant Jeffries book). It is interesting that the Shoemaker-Levy comet string hit Jupiter first on the 9th of Av, 1994 (Note: our July 17). If, as some have suggested, the church is raptured on that date in 1998, then that, indeed, would be the harbinger of the worst news ever for Israel. The dedicated Christians have been the greatest supporters of the reborn Israel, and those who have stood in the gap for Israel since 1948, forbidding Israel's enemies from destroying Israel, along with pleading for the hand of God in intervention for Israel. Perhaps it was the prayers of the saints that helped move God to intervene on behalf of Israel because we always have prayed FERVENTLY for the Lord's protection of Israel in all of their difficulties. If we are taken from the earth via rapture and are no longer here to intercede on Israel's behalf, then that well could be one of the greatest disasters to happen to Israel and, as someone suggested, the third removal of the temple since Christians now are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Our removal well might represent the removal of the helping hand of God to deter evil from overcoming the Israelis, which we know will happen during Daniel's 70th week, especially during the great tribulation. We'll soon see. God bless you.
(Note: Jer. 52:12,13 says that the house of the LORD was burned "in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month. That is Av 10, which is Sunday, Aug. 2.)

Incoming Email

How are you? Praise God!! I don't know if Jim Bramlett posted you this but I found it on the 5 Doves site and thought you would be interested

Jim Bramlett (26 June) "Hint of summer rapture?"

The possible season of the year of the rapture is an interesting topic. Many us saw the strong possibility of a spring rapture, partly because of Song of Solomon, chapter 2:

"My lover spoke and said to me, "Arise, my darling, my beautiful one, and come with me. See! THE WINTER IS PAST; the rains are over and gone. Flowers appear on the earth; the season of singing has come, the cooing of doves is heard in our land. The fig tree forms its early fruit; the blossoming vines spread their fragrance. Arise, come, my darling; my beautiful one, come with me" (Song of Solomon 2:10-11, NIV).

However, it didn't happen, this year anyhow. But because it says "the winter is past," we assumed it would be in the springtime. However, even before May 31, it dawned on me one day that technically it DOES NOT rule out summer, which is also past winter, and is also a time of flowers, fruit, fragrance, etc.

We are now looking at summer possibilities, such as July 4 and 10 Av (August 2). This made me think of Jesus' words: "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that SUMMER is near" (Mark 13:28, NIV). While we cannot be certain, this may be a prophetic hint that summer may, just may, be the rapture season.
Maranatha, Jim

Incoming Email

Marilyn, Thank you for your inspiring words. On May 31st,I was relieved when the rapture didn't happen. Now,finally,I am waiting and looking every day. Another good reason that He tarried! We will see you up there. Love

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 6-28-98