Pro and Con 141, Uploaded 6-29-98

Note: There is an interesting file URL added near the top of my link page. Here it is also: http://www.goldinc.com/Tour/Greece/Publications/JBA/Volume_01_Issue_10.html
I think you will enjoy it. I did. It's called "Judas: When did he die"

Incoming Email

I don't know why, but I feel there is something significant about the fig tree parables that we are unaware of.

Luke 13:6 certain young man planted a fig tree. for three years i've come looking for fruit without finding any. cut it down. Why does it even use up the ground? one more year.

Marilyn, I've been studying the planting of fig trees. They do not bear fruit at all until 5-7 years. This period of time called a GENERATION.
ANY COMMENT?

My reply

Thanks for passing along this information. I don't know if it really ties in or not, but if the Rapture happens in 5758 (1997/1998), and the four years mentioned in the parable are 5758, 5759, 5760, and 5761 (1997/98, 1998/99, 1999/00, and 2000/01), Israel, nationally, will not bear fruit during most of those years. Lately, they have been trying to pass a law against anyone trying to convert them to a different religion.

As the Seventieth Week of Daniel/Tribulation begins, probably on the Feast of Weeks in 5761, Moses and Elijah will be filled with the Holy Spirit and will begin their 1260-day ministry. The fruit of their prophesying could begin to make a real impact in 5762, which would only be a few months away. The Feast of Weeks is in Sivan, then there are Tamuz, Av, and Elul. The next Civil Year begins as the next month, Tishri, begins.

All Israel will be saved in a day (Isa. 66:10), as the Millennium begins, probably on on Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007), but there is fruit before that too. The 144,000 of Rev. 7 are Israelites.

Incoming Email

As I examine myself to see if I am living as a wise virgin, a question comes up as to what this might look like if this were indeed the case for me and others I know.

  It seems that to actively anticipate the soon return of Christ is definitely a part.  In other words, to watch with sincerety of heart.

  Yet I often think about brothers and sisters around the world who are going through overt persecution as of this moment because of their faith, because of their love for the Lord, and because, in my mind, they are living with the heart of a wise virgin.

  Some of these, from what I understand, do not have ready access to the Scriptures.  I wonder how many even know about some of the clues in Scripture that point to Christ's soon return, clues that are very accessable to us with internet access or a bookstore nearby.

  I think to myself, envisioning some who are in prison right now for their faith, that when Christ comes, will they not go during the first rapture even if they have no intellectual understanding of the event itself?  I think so.  It is their love for Christ that is the qualification.

  Granted, if they had ready access to scripture and Biblical teaching on end time events, I am sure they would explore it as intensely as many of us are doing.  Yet because they do not, this obviously will not disqualify them of "the prize".  Do you see my point?  It relects the Romans quote you have posted at the beginning of your home page.

  As we love Jesus by drinking from Him in all that He has done for us and is inside of us, resting and choosing from this reality, it will manefest itself in a growing love for people.  I think the time of testing, or of waiting that we are experiencing now is more to purify our hearts to know and manefest His love for ourselves and in our relationships with others, than it is to know of the date of His return with precision.  (Although I will continue to investigate and watch).

  I appreciate how you, Marylin, respond to criticism on your web-site.  It is an exhortation to me to live in (Abide) the love of Christ and to choose to manefest Him in my responces to people.  I want my brothers and sisters to keep this foremost in their minds during this testing/waiting time.  I believe part of the ongoing confession of sin includes an acknowledgment of how we are not drinking from Him in a given way so as to know and manefest His love.

  I have a couple questions.  When does the wheat harvest end?  Is there a set time on the calendar for this year?  It makes a great deal of sense to me that the firstfruit aspect of the New Testement event would not necessarily would not be repeated, but more towards the end of the harvest time...

My reply

We are ready when we are filled with the Holy Spirit, and the Lord judges fairly.

I emailed someone in Israel, but he said he did not know since he was not a farmer, but would guess the end of summmer. Stewarton Bible School, Scotland, has a chart. It says the wheat harvest is completed in Tamuz (Jun/July). In Israel, wheat is harvested about a month LATER on the higher elevations than on the lower ones. Unger lists it as in Tamuz. The last day of Tamuz is Thu., July 23 this year....

Incoming Email

The term 'ProCon' is well-coined. In reading these many pages, I've always been amazed at your perserverance, patience, and gentleness. Nonetheless, I, like many of those who send you e-mail, often cringe at those things which seem a real 'stretch'. I believe II Peter 1:20. ".. knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation." I take this to mean that those things that the Lord would have us know in a prophetic sense will be very clear at the proper time, and from the correct vantage point. Obviously for generations, passages about the end-time nation of Israel would make no sense, since she didn't exist. Now, however, we are amazed to see a picture emerging very clearly. It should never be necessary to 'grasp at straws' to find obscure verses to support some position that we hold. When the fog lifts, the horizon can be seen, yes?!? You very much like to support the position of "watching". Watching doesn't mean 'fabricating' the landscape, seeing spectres among the shadows. Wait for the sun to appear to burn off the fog.

Most of the time, however, since I am not a scholar, I take what you say in faith, trusting in the Lord to sort it all out. I do support the notion that some common sense should apply in most situations. To that end, I would like to ask a few questions, and also provide a public response to comments made by some of your readers.

My personal 'Con' section would center around these questions:

First, I have a concern with the place of importance that Song of Solomon 2: 10-13 has played in all this. I have a problem with the fact that as one continues to read the Song, the bride has the problem of having misplaced her beloved. She goes out into the streets to find him, and eventually he finds her. This scenario is repeated at least three times. All of them after the aforementioned verses which you believe suggest the rapture. Why?

The other problem that I have is with the interpretation of the barren fig-tree, and the four years spent looking for fruit. Obviously, the parable is dealing with Israel. I still do not see the connection that would require the rapture to occur PRIOR to the four year waiting period, rather that during, or at the end of that period. Again, how do you reach that conclusion?

On the 'Pro' side, you have been very patient and loving in the last several ProCons, where you have been taken to task by several people who, in the name of Christ, took it upon themselves to set you straight. I'd like to address a couple of relevant issues if I may, in the interest of 'raising the conciousness' of these readers:

1) One of the fundamental truths of Judeo-Christianity is that man has been created in God's image. God is triune in nature, thus we refer to the Trinity as the fullness of the Godhead. Man is created with three distinct aspects also: body, soul, and spirit. Salvation occurs in three phases which correspond to the three aspects of man (and of God):

First, when we accept Christ we are "saved" spiritually. At this point, we have bought a ticket to heaven. Nothing further needs to be done. The admission price has been bought and paid for by the Son himself, and "nothing can separate us from the love of God". This does not make us suddenly perfect people however. How many new Christians are instantly "Christ-like"? No, once membership in the kingdom has been bought, we must still make the journey. We are not there yet, but are simply looking forward to that eventuality. The fact of our Salvation was accomplished by Christ on the tree at Calvary, and is a past event.

Next, our spiritual journey begins. Not too many years ago, it was popular to talk about Sanctification -- the process of being made into the image of our Lord. Sanctification deals with the soul (the heart, the personality, the mind). In Romans 12: 1-2 we read: "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spritual service. And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Why would the Apostle Paul make this appeal if it were a done deal? Does not this transformation require constant voluntary submission to God? I believe that this is what Paul is referring to when he says in Ephesians 3:12 "Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus." While many places in the New Testament refer to the surety of our salvation (spiritual), it speaks clearly of the need to bear our crosses daily, to strive to attain the prize that Paul speaks of in I Corinthians 9:24-25. "Even so run; that ye may attain. And every man that striveth in the games exerciseth self-control in all things." And in verse 27, "but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected." Strange words from an obviously saved man, if for whom all is already completely accomplished in Christ, wouldn't you say? Apparently, works without faith is dead, but works WITH faith produces something valuable. It must be that the spiritual salvation is the requisite condition that allows us to begin the walk with Christ. Seems to me that it is perfectly clear in scripture that we as Christians ought to be about the business of allowing ourselves to be made into the image of Christ (and thus being clothed in garments of white). The fact of our Sanctification is accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit to the extent (and at the rate) that we permit it, and is an ongoing process in the present.

Third, the physical Redemption of our bodies. The last phase in the Blessed Hope. Our being transformed so that when we see Him, we will be like Him. Raised from corruptible flesh to incorruptible bodies. This hasn't happened yet. We still dwell in perishable tents. We are still subject to illness, tribulation, temptation, etc. BUT, we have a way to deal with those things. We have a Savior who has provided the means to overcome, or at least patiently endure them. They don't suddenly go away until we dwell in our new temples. The fact of the Resurrection/Rapture will be accomplished by God the Father, and is, for now at least, a future event.

All of the forgoing refer to our 'salvation'. Until one grasps the three aspects of our salvation, the scriptures which refer to the different aspects of that salvation may certainly be misunderstood, and by some, misapplied. In Matthew 5:19, Jesus refers to those who are "least in the kingdom of heaven" and those who are "great in the kingdom of heaven". Now, how do you suppose you could account for this lack of 'equality'? Why will some rule over 10 cities, and some over 5, etc.? Is it possible that some will have crowns, and others will not? Why, do you think? I think the answer will not be politically correct.

2) The single biggest criticism leveled at Marilyn (and others) is based in what I consider and extraordinarily blind view of Mark 13:32. "But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." I consider myself a simple man, a sinner saved by the grace of God. And I am very pragmatic when it comes to understanding the deep things of the Spirit. I can most easily see God in the world around me, in nature, and in music, and in mathematics. So, my understanding of how Jesus meant these words is fairly simplistic, and my argument would go as follows: A hurricane is coming. The weather service does it's best to track the path and forecast landfall. Yet, it is impossible to know with any degree of certainty where, when, or how the hurricane will track. Predictions will be made. Most will be wrong. Should we not then listen to the forecasters? As the storm nears, don't the forecasts get more accurate, and more worthy of attention? After the hurricane hits, then the facts will be a matter of history. I view the words of Jesus that way. Will the day or hour come? Yes. Do we know when? No. Did Jesus tell us not to try and figure it out? NO. In the very next 5 verses, he commands us to WATCH! He uses that word 4 times in those 5 verses. The problem that Christians (whom I believe have been deceived) have is that they have translated "knoweth no one" into "don't even speculate". If watching is so important, then what do you suppose would be the greatest single impetus for doing so? Try thinking: the hour is upon us! So far, I judge Marilyn's record to be no worse than the weather forecasters. For those of you who sit and watch the weather channel, remember that Marilyn is serving exactly that same function. God has appointed some to serve in the capacity of 'Watchmen on the Wall'. And scripture is clear as to exactly where the responsibility lies in Ezekiel 33:2-6. "Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from among them, and set him for their watchman; if, when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning, if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him; whereas if he had taken warning, he would have delivered his soul. But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned, and the sword come, and take any person; he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand."

Those who so self-righteously brandish the 'false prophet' accusation are dangerously in jeopardy of being judged for having done so. Marilyn recognizes this, and nearly always ends up praying for YOU. Before I found her book, and then her website, I had sunk into the spiritual doldrums after 30 years as a Christian. Then, when she focused on II Peter 1:5-11, I realized that in the general scheme of spiritual development, I really wasn't very far along. How can I repay her for putting me back on track? My Lord will provide the reward, Hallelujah! So those of you who feel that Marilyn has done a disservice need to do some serious introspection. What in your hearts could possibly lead you to that conclusion? Is that the Holy Spirit? Is it truly Christ within you? You all need to seriously answer that question for yourselves....

God bless all who await the coming storm by resting on the Rock.

My reply

Thank you for all your kindness.

II Peter 1:15-21 says, "I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no PROPHECY OF THE SCRIPTURE is of any private interpretation (epilusis, Thayer: unloosing, i.e., origination). For the PROPHECY CAME NOT IN OLD TIME BY THE WILL OF MAN: BUT HOLY MEN OF GOD SPAKE AS THEY WERE MOVED BY THE HOLY GHOST."

This has to do with the creation of Scripture, not someone reading it and trying to figure out what it means.

> Song of Solomon 2: 10-13

The Song is not easily understood. Many leave out comments on it because of this. I'll just have to tell you how it looks to me. First, it sketches events, then goes back to fill in more details.

We can be sure that the Bridgroom is Christ, for "His head is as (symbolic language) the most fine gold (deity)...His eyes are as the eyes of doves (Holy Spirit) (5:11,12).

Also, "What will ye see in the Shulamite? As it were the company of TWO ARMIES" (6:13). Does that remind you of the 10 virgins, 5 wise and 5 foolish?

It seems to me that the loved one, the fair one, the dove "in the clefts of the rock" (in Christ) in 2:8-14 is the Bride of Christ. When the Bridegroom comes, he says, "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away." Doesn't that sound like the "Come up hither" of Rev. 4:1? That group seems to be the wise virgins, symbolized as a dove because she is filled with the Holy Spirit.

Then 2:17 mentions "the mountains of Bether." Bether mean separation. In the next section, I think we hear the foolish virgins talking. "I sought him, but I found him not." Why? She took too long to get ready (5:2-6), just as the foolish virgins did. She said she "opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself and was gone." Jesus said he would come quickly (Rev. 22:20). She should be ready and neither delay nor refuse him that speaketh from Heaven.

In Rev. 2:5, he said, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

Since the foolish virgins are caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture, in 3:4, the one left behind says, "It was but a little that I passed from them, but I found him whom my soul loveth." However, in the interim, she says, "they smote me, they wounded me" (5:7).

Song. 3:6 asks, "Who is this that cometh out of THE WILDERNESS like pillars of smoke?" I think it is the Tribulation saints who have been driven into the wilderness to escape being killed during the latter part of the Tribulation.

"Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb" (Rev. 19:9).

I think Song 3:11 symbolizes Coronation day, when Christ receives his golden crown just before the Marriage of the Lamb. It says, "Go forth, O ye daughters of Zion, and behold king Solomon (son of David) with the crown wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals (Ampl., wedding), and in the day of the gladness of his heart."

> The other problem that I have is with the interpretation of the barren
> fig-tree, and the four years spent looking for fruit. Obviously, the
> parable is dealing with Israel. I still do not see the connection that
> would require the rapture to occur PRIOR to the four year waiting period,
> rather that during, or at the end of that period. Again, how do you reach
> that conclusion?

I could be wrong, but I see no reason that we would be told that "he came" if it had nothing to do with the Rapture. If Israel does not bear fruit, the decree will go forth to "cut it down" (Lu. 13:6-9). That sounds like the Tribulation.

At the beginning of the Tribulation, the "temple of God" is there when God's two witnesses begin their 1260-day ministry (Rev. 11:1-3). If the Rapture is a few years before the beginning of the Tribulation, there is time to get the temple built.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is when He is revealed to us at the Rapture. The Rapture is "at hand" in Rev. 1:3; 22:10; 22:20). Rev. 1:13-16 is a symbolic representation of how he will look. He will tell us with authority just who he is, "the first and the last","the Almighty," "the root and the offspring of David" (1:8,18; 22:13,16).

In chapter 17, verse 12, we see that the ten kings "have received no kingdom as yet." That is at the time of the Rapture. Now look at Rev. 13:1. All ten kings have "crowns" when the Tribulation begins. To me, this shows that there is a gap between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation.

How large a gap we will have to wait and see. However, if the parable of the barren fig tree applies here, this year fits, and it would give enough time to build the temple. Right now, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. When we are raised up would be an appropriate time for the earthy temple to be raised up (constructed).

The Red Heifer can be sacrificed in this Jubilee year, which Biblically is to be announced on the previous Day of Atonement (7th month, 10th day) and run from the next Nisan 1 to the end of that Sacred Year. The article on Pro and Con 137 said, "Presently melody is qualified and barring any unforeseen disqualification's Melody will be ready for sacrifice August 1998 [Elul 5758]." That seems like a good sign that the building of the temple is near. We will just have to stay ready and wait patiently until the Rapture takes place....

Incoming Email

I have enjoyed your site. My pastor, this past Sunday, referenced a scripture in Exodus 12 that raised my curiosity. This is the passage:

  1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

These 2 passages are where God is instructing Moses (and Aaron) regarding the passover lamb. v:2 says this month shall be unto you the beginning of months. Isn't the beginning of months by Jewish reckoning in the fall? When did passover change to a spring time feast?

Any feedback on this would be appreciated. Thanks

My reply

The Sacred Year came into being right when that statement was made. The Jews have a Civil Year starting in the fall, on Tishri 1. They also have a Sacred Year, which is also their Regnal Year, starting in the spring, on Nisan 1.

The Passover always was in the spring. The one in Egypt was the first time Passover was kept.

Incoming Email

Rapture Vision (From: Jim Bramlett)
This was forwarded to me by a friend of the lady, Cathy, from the Brownsville Assembly of God Church in Pensacola, Florida, who described her unusual experience with the Lord, below:

I was responding to a letter from a dear friend in England and shared with her what I felt during prayer. I think it may be a vision, and that means it would be for you too! Blessings to you !
Cathy Wood

Dear June,
I was worshipping God the other day with the "Glory in the Dark" video on. You can feel a strong presence of God coming off that tape. At one point we were singing a song that said "the Spirit and the Bride cry out to you..come quickly" and another line says "breathe on us until you come". When that line was being sung, it was as if I could see Jesus and he was huge...his arms were unending and he was saying COME. At first it was like his face was where our baptistry is and his arms were reaching out along the walls of the sanctuary. I could see his arms. Then there were hundreds of people running into his arms. Some of us giggled as were ganged up together finding little crevices in his arms to hide in. In the beginning it was people I knew, other workers of the revival, then it was people I had never seen before. The next thing I know, its like I am in the air and I hear something that only God's people can hear. I see people from all over the earth responding to a sound that those around them cannot hear. (It made me think of a dog whistle.. Humans cannot hear it.) As I watched to see who was coming, I saw you and Terry. You were out in the yard and you had some kind of gardening tool in your hand and you dropped it and started walking toward the Lord. I saw other internet people I have met from other parts of the world. Some were at home, some were at work, and everyone dropped what they were doing and began walking toward the sound that only we could hear. I started crying harder at this point and began to call out to God to tell him I hear him calling us. It seemed like I was watching a movie as everything went into slow motion and many people just looking up and silently dropping whatever they were holding, not turning to say goodbye to anyone..just walking away. No time in our history have so many longed to hear the bridegroom. No time in history have so many been ready to leave everything behind to so be with the Lord. Never before have we thought of his coming like we do now. Surely this is what he meant when he said we would not be caught unaware. He is calling us, deep in our hearts. When I got up from the floor, I knew I had been visited by the Lord....

Come Lord Jesus
Cathy

Incoming Email

a friend sent me your web page this evening .. My first time to see it.

I belong to a Fundlemental Pre millianian ( didn't spell it correct) Missionary Baptist church and have breen taught these Bible Principles all my Christian life and am so glad to have found this on the Web. now I wish we could find a way to spread these truths so that everyone can find it easily. thank you for making the page and having it available for folks.

My reply

Thanks for letting me know.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 6-29-98