Pro and Con 1413

Posted 5-20-08


Dead Sea Salt

Incoming e-mail, Re: Please read and review and comment

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/may2008/rickh513.htm

My reply

> > The Church, the ecclesia or out called ones (out called from the Wrath of God - pre-trib rapture), is the body of Christ, and at the time of the Rapture, that body of Christ will be called up by none other than Jesus, The Christ, the head of that body. > > Has the Body of Christ ever been called up before? Yes, at the set time of The Ascension of Jesus, The Christ. The head of that body that is yet to be called up. Jesus' ascension cast the shadow into the future to foretell of the catching away of the Church. Therefore, The Rapture occurs in fulfillment of the shadow cast by Jesus Himself at His ascension --- His body called up in each instance. Again, the substance is Christ!

The OT saints that had died were taken to Heaven on Firstfruits. Paradise had been in the Earth. From that day on, Paradise has been in Heaven. Christ came back that day and ascended again on the 40th day of the 50-day countdown to Pentecost. Those are shadows, true, but how to apply them to the Church is another matter. Jesus went away so that the Holy Spirit could come back on Pentecost to indwell believers. At the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, the Bride of Christ will go with the Bridegroom, Jesus Christ, to Heaven. Do we go by when Jesus went up to Heaven in the sight of the disciples on Ascension Day, or by Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came down? Jesus is to come for his Bride.

Col 2:16,17 says, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." To me, this mention of an holyday gives Pentecost an edge over Ascension Day, because Ascension Day is not a feast day.

Lev 23:15-17 might give us a clue. It says, "And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering (unleavened, representing the sinless Christ); seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. YE SHALL BRING OUT OF YOUR HABITATIONS (dwelling places) TWO WAVE LOAVES of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be BAKEN WITH LEAVEN; THEY ARE THE FIRSTFRUITS UNTO THE LORD."

We are firstfruits. James 1:18 says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that WE SHOULD BE A KIND OF FIRSTFRUITS of his creatures." If we are the firstfruits waved before the Lord on Pentecost, Pentecost may be the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Firstfruits are not waved on Ascension Day. Is there any other time that leavened bread is baked to kill the leaven, so it can be waved before the Lord? Not that I know of. That fits us so well that I give Pentecost the edge over Ascension Day for the Pre-Trib Rapture. Then why are there two loaves of bread? Jews and Gentiles come to mind.

> > when did Jesus ascend? He died on Passover, was raised three days later on Firstfruits, and ascended forty days after that.
> > Therefore, God's timer for catching away The Church is set to go off forty days after Firstfruits, in a year when all the other elements pertaining to that time are aligned.

If we weren't already in the 41st year, I would think the 40 days could suggest that our Rapture would be at the end of 40 years since the Six-Day War of 1967. Some people say that we are still in the 40th year, but that doesn't work out for me. June, 1967 + 40 = June, 2007.

The way I count the 50 days to Pentecost, starting with day 1 on the day after Firstfruits, I come to June 10 (Tuesday, Sivan 7) for Pentecost this year. That day will be 41 years since the Six-Day War ended on June 10, 1967. That date could be significant.

Of course, I will be watching from Ascension Day, May 31, on until the Rapture happens anyway. It will take place when the Lord planned it to before the world began, and it looks like we are about there.

Jesus said that earthquakes would increase, and they certainly have. I remember the horrible tsunami an earthquake in the Indian Ocean caused. A little later, another one in that area raised an island up 10 feet. China's deaths from the recent earthquake there are expected to reach 50,000. Agape

Part 2, this URL was given in the post on five doves site: http://www.chn-net.com/teaching/endtimes/rapture.html

Sal thinks the Rapture will be on Ascension Day. Let's see what he wrote at http://www.chn-net.com/teaching/endtimes/rapture.html

> > The head of that body that is yet to be called up. Jesus' ascension cast the shadow into the future to foretell of the catching away of the Church. Therefore, The Rapture occurs in fulfillment of the shadow cast by Jesus Himself at His ascension...

> > Firstfruits, the promise of the full harvest yet to come, is the day Christ rose. Casting a shadow of a set time for resurrections into the future, setting the stage for the return of Jesus, the Christ in the future. But, Matthew, in his gospel wrote, at chapter 27, verses 52 and 53, that on that day of resurrection, after Jesus rose, the graves were opened and, my bible says, "and many bodies of saints that slept arose, and, came out of the graves after the resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many"....
> > what this is saying, is that these risen saints are the shadow cast of the promise of the full harvest of the saints yet to come.

> > And, on that day appointed for the Ascension, Ephesians, chapter 4, at verse 8, that's scripture by the way, tells us that when He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, fulfilling that earlier prophecy made in Psalm 68 at verse 18!

> > That means that WHEN JESUS ASCENDED, 40 DAYS AFTER HE ROSE, HE TOOK WITH HIM THOSE SAINTS WHO ROSE WITH HIM 40 DAYS EARLIER, those that were seen by many in the holy city. They were the token, of the full harvest yet to come, just as the omer of barley (the flour) , made from the sheaf's of barley picked on Firstfruits, and waved before the Lord, was the token of a full harvest yet to come.

I think Jesus took the saints that came out of their graves to Heaven on Firstfruits, not on Ascension Day. At first, Jesus could not be touched, because he had not yet ascended to the Father. Later in the day, he could be touched.

John 20:17 says, "Jesus saith unto her (Mary Magdalene), Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

When Eph 4:8 speaks of him ascending, I think that was on Firstfruits.

Eph 4:8-10 says, "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) "

> > That's what Paul means when he tells the Thessalonians, in chapter 4 at verse 16 & 17, that the dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive and remain are caught up together with them in the twinkling of an eye, to be with the Lord forever.

I Thess. 4:13-18 does not say that the first trump Rapture, the Pre-Trib Rapture, is in the twinkling of an eye. That is in I Cor. 15:51-53. It means that at the "last trump" (the Pre-Wrath Rapture), we will all (the whole Body of Christ) be changed, be made actually immortal. We are raised incorruptible at the first trump, but the whole Body of Christ has to be complete before we will actually be made immortal.

1Cor 15:51-53 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all (including Paul) be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." > > And in fulfillment of the shadow cast by that event on resurrection day, many of the newly resurrected dead in Christ, will be seen by many, just as they once were seen in the holy city...

The first trump Rapture will be seen. Psa. 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a NEW SONG in my mouth (as in Rev. 5:9), even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

> > "...Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed -- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye..." (ICor.15:51,52)
> > Here Paul addresses the 'living' of IThes.4:17 at the time of the Rapture, and tells us of a mystery of the dead and living being changed when we meet Jesus in the air....

I Thess 4:17 is about the Pre-Trib Rapture at the first trump of God. I Cor. 15:51,52 is about the Pre-Wrath Rapture at the "last trump" of God.

> > The fact is, the true believers will not see peace come to the Jews. They will only see the events leading to an eventual peace, but peace can't come until after the Rapture happens. And then, with the agreement on peace, the seven year clock begins to tick.

Agreed.

> > It is important to note that even though Paul is describing him as a man of sin' and 'son of Perdition', initially this individual comes onto the scene with an offer instrumental in making peace for the Jews. John describes him in Revelation, Chapter 6, as riding in on a white horse, carrying an unloaded bow, and wearing a crown of authority given to him in honor. It isn't until he breaks his covenant and turns on the Jews three and a half years later that he shows his true nature as the of son of Perdition (The Antichrist -- meaning Substitute, or false deliverer)....

> > The scriptures reveal a lot about this person who turns out to be the false deliverer. In them we discover his origins, his motivation, his reign of seven years and his actions during each of the first and second half of his reign.

> > He is called by many names. Man of Sin, Son of Perdition, The Wicked One, The Beast, The Little Horn, Gog, Antichrist, the prince that shall come and The Peacemaker. But they're all the same person.

Rev. 13 tells us that there are two beasts during the Tribulation. Each of them rules 3.5 years. The 1st beast is the 6th head of the great red dragon. The 2nd beast is the 7th head. He is the one that Satan enters into. He is the False Prophet, the son of perdition. He is a Satan-possessed man, not a government. The tail of the great red dragon goes into him. See Rev. 17.

> > In his time he is really three things. First he is a person. later he's also a government, and finally he and his government are spirit ruled. We know that he comes on the scene in peace. We know that his swiftness and cunning are as Alexander the great, that his territory is in the land of the Old Medo-Persian domain, his capital is Baghdad, his goal is power, and he is ruled by a spirit during the last half of his reign. We know that the spirit that rules him is the evil prince of Grecia, the same spirit that once ruled the Grecian Conqueror, Alexander.

I think "his capital" will be Babylon. See Rev. 18. He will be Satan possessed.

> > We know that he rises to power from within a group of ten kings from the Eastern Leg...of the Old Roman Empire. We know that he brings about a peace agreement between the Jews, and the other kings, that permits the Jews to rebuild their temple and resume sacrificing. We know he uproots three of the ten kings from whence he came. We know that after three and a half years he breaks his deal with all of them, and takes over.

The ten toes of the image in Nebuchadnezzar's vision stand for the 10 kings. Five are on the right foot. Five are on the left foot. I think that these 10 kings will rule the 10 divisions this world has been divided into during part of the Tribulation. However, at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, these 10 kings have not yet received their kingdom.

Rev 17:12-14 says of the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received NO KINGDOM AS YET; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and THEY THAT ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL." Agape

My reply to Fw: for Marylin Agee "Apostasia"

The KJV has what I think are two mistakes in translation in 2Th 2:1-3. It says, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".

It should say day of the Lord instead of "day of Christ", as in manuscripts found later, and departing instead of "a falling away first." He apostasia, translated "a falling away" means separation, divorce, departure, as when one person leaves when there is a divorce.

2Thess 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1587) says, "Nowe we beseech you, brethren, by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our assembling vnto him (i.e., at the Pre-Trib Rapture), That ye be not suddenly mooued from your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs, as though the day of Christ (day of the Lord in major manuscripts found after this was translated; see Darby, Weymouth, ASV and RSV) were at hand. Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day (i.e., the great and terrible Day of the Lord) shall not come, except there come A DEPARTING FIRST (he apostasia, The Departing, i.e., The Pre-Trib Rapture), and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition" (i.e., the False Prophet).

The departing can't mean the Pre-Wrath Rapture, for that happens after the Day of God's Wrath has come. Rev. 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Then the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place in Rev. 7. The 7 trumpets are given to the 7 angels in Rev. 8.

The World English Bible has "departure." It says, "it will not be, unless THE DEPARTURE comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction."

The Amplified Bible says in a footnote that a possible rendering of the Greek apostasia is "departure [of the church]."

Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek-English Lexicon says, "apo-sta^sis, es, h...departure from".

Miles Coverdale (1535) and the Tyndale New Testament (1526) also say departing. The Vulgate used discessio, Latin for departure. The Hebrew Names Version has "departure."

Here is 2 Thess. 2:1-12 in the Tyndale Bible:
1 "We beseche you brethren by the commynge of oure lorde Iesu Christ and in that we shall assemble vnto him that ye be not sodely moved from youre mynde and be not troubled nether by sprete nether by wordes nor yet by letter which shuld seme to come from vs as though the daye of Christ were at honde. Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come A DEPARTYNGE FYRST and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion (i.e., the False Prophet) which is an adversarie and is exalted above all that is called god or that is worshipped: so that he shall sitt as God in temple of god and shew him silfe as god. Remember ye not that when I was yet with you I tolde you these thynges? And nowe ye knowe what with holdeth: even that he myght be vttered at his tyme. For the mistery of that iniquitie doeth he all readie worke which onlie loketh vntill it be taken out of ye waye. And then shall that wicked be vttered whom the lorde shall consume with the sprete of hys mouth and shall destroye with the apearaunce of his commynge even him whose commynge is by the workynge of Satan wyth all lyinge power signes and wonders: and in all deceavablenes of vnrightewesnes amonge them that perysshe: because they receaved not the (love) of the truth that they myght have bene saved. And therfore god shall sende them stronge delusion that they shuld beleve lyes: that all they myght be damned which beleved not the trueth but had pleasure in vnrightewesnes."

Note: 2 Thess 2:3 (Wycliffe New Testament) says, "[That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but DEPARTING AWAY, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition".

Here is something else I found interesting. II Thess. 2:7 (KJV) says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." ROTHERHAM's translation says, "For, the secret, of lawlessness, already, is inwardly working itself,ONLY, UNTIL, HE THAT RESTRAINETH AT PRESENT, SHALL BE GONE, OUT OF THE MIDST." When the Holy Spirit indwelt Bride of Christ will be gone, out of the midst, is at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Midst is "mesos," Strong's 3319. It means MIDNIGHT, middle, in the midst of. It sounds like the Holy Spirit indwelling us will be GONE AT MIDNIGHT. If so, the Rapture may really happen at midnight. This agrees with the parable of the 10 virgins. Mesos is translated "midnight" in Mt. 25:6: "And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him."

In the Preview of the Rapture, Rev. 1:13 (KJV) says, "And in the midst (mesos, middle, midnight) of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle."

Rev. 2:7 (KJV) says, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst (mesos, midnight, middle) of the paradise of God." These may be play-on-word clues.

Ruth 3:8 (KJV) says, "IT CAME TO PASS AT MIDNIGHT, that the man (Boaz) was afraid, and turned himself: and, behold, a woman (Ruth) lay at his feet. Ruth chose Boaz as her kinsman redeemer, and they were married soon after. Boaz is a type of Christ, and Ruth is a type of the Gentile believer that is grafted in and becomes part of the Bride of Christ. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Rapture Article

I read your rapture article on the web and was quite impressed with the calculations leading to the possiblity of the rapture occurring in 2008. The Word of God however, seems to indicate that the catching away will happen at the opening of the Sixth Seal after the worldwide famine, and a 1/4 of the population are destroyed.

It also appears that the red moons and solar eclipses will occur in 2015 on the Jewish feast days, so I personally thought that would be the ideal time for the rapture to take place, since it is also a Sabbatical year.

What am I missing? Any help on the thought processes would be appreciated. Sincerely

My reply

> > What am I missing?

You are forgetting that there is a Pre-Trib Rapture. It takes place at the first trump of God (See I Thess. 4:16,17). It is probably on Pentecost since the first trump of God sounded at Mt. Sinai on Pentecost. It is hard to disregard the force of the first mention.

Yes, there are two Raptures. At the first trump of God, the Pre-Trib Rapture will take place as in I Thess. 4:16,17. These saints are seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. This first Rapture is for the Bride of Christ. The "last trump" is in I Cor. 15:51,52. It is for the foolish virgins, 144,000 Israelites, and a great multitude of Tribulation saints too great to measure.

Luke 21:36 tells us to "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The wise virgins who have enough oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (bodies) will be accounted worthy to escape.

In the last verse of Rev. 6, the Day of God's Wrath has come. I expect that will be Tishri 1, 5776, Sept. 14, 2015. It has to be a Jewish Leap Year, because there will be 7 months between Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1 when Christ will return (Eze. 39:12,13). In an ordinary year, there are only 6 months between Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1.

The fact that there are no more tetrads of Blood Moon eclipses on Feast Days after 2014 and 2015 this century is powerful reason to think the Jewish Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015) is the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the Day of God's Wrath.

The Tribulation saints are caught up in Rev. 7. Verse 9 shows that there will be a great multitude, too many to number, that will be caught up with the 144,000 Israelites that can be numbered. All the Tribulation saints will be in Heaven that day. Rev. 7:14 says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." They have confessed their sins committed after they accepted Christ as their Saviour, and he is faithful to cleanse them from all unrighteousness (I John 1:9).

Then, in Rev. 8, there is silence in Heaven. There is also silence in the Earth. Hab 2:20 says, "But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him." Rev. 8:1 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." I think this is when Christ is seated as Judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

After this, the 7 trumpets of judgment will be given to the 7 angels. The judgments all hit Earth that day. The mountain-sized asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea. Satan's home, the asteroid named Wormwood of Rev. 8:10,11 will obliterate Babylon. The worldwide earthquake will cause every wall to fall (Eze. 38:20). The cities of the nations will be in shambles. Thank you Lord that we will be in Heaven on that great and terrible Day of the Lord.

We will be in Heaven receiving our rewards when this terrible catastrophy hits Earth. Rev. 11:15-19 says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders (12 patriarchs and 12 apostles), which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast (i.e., at the First Advent), and art to come (seven months later at the Second Advent); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." The two stone tablets probably represent the two asteroids that will hit Earth because the 10 commandments were not kept.

1 Peter 4:17 says, "For the TIME IS COME that Judgment must BEGIN at the House of God: and if it FIRST BEGIN with US, what shall the End be of them that obey not the Gospel of God?"

Psa 149:5-9 says, "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD."

The Pre-Trib-Rapture saints are caught up to Heaven first, "then (i.e., on the Day of God's Wrath) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (i.e., the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (the saints who went to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture) (Mk 13:27). Agape

The Clock is Still Ticking...for a few Hours

Thank you so much for your encouragement and admonishment. I receive it warmly and thankfully.

I am still so very excited because the time is very short.
I had a strong awareness while watching in the cemetery this last weekend that what I was doing by watching at the graveside was an act of faith that was not unseen from heaven. I was aware that it was a rehearsal of a soon reality.

Looking forward to meeting you in the air! Maybe even on the way up!!!

Incoming e-mail, Re: pics of colliding galaxies

I am so grateful to have found your website last night. The breadth of your studies is just awesome! Thank you so much for sharing with all of us. I was up last night until the wee hours of this morning reading......God's picture book written in the stars is SO incredible, such perfection!! Oh, we serve an awesome God!! I don't know if you have already seen this, but here is a link, pictures from the hubble telescope of galaxies colliding. I recognized many of the names from your teachings that I read last night. It looks like it is dated 04/24/2008. Would love to hear what you think of these after you view them, if you haven't already?

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/hubble-captures-crashing-galaxies/20080426210609990001#cmntbgn
Your Sister in Christ

My reply

Thanks. The photos are fantastic. Agape

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