Pro and Con 1419
Incoming e-mail, Re: Lunar Sabbaths; True Pentecost
I'm attaching some studies found at www.creationcalendar.com I must confess that I'm impressed.
I would very much like to hear your comments on that interpretation, as well as the implications for Prophetic studies if Pentecost happens to be on Tamuz 29 (which happens to land on August 1st, this year).
I was truly surprised by those explanatonions and so far they seem very reasonable to me.
Notice that they say that the correct Sabbath calculation has nothing to do with the present weekly Saturday, which has Roman origins (so even the Jewish Sabbath keepers and de 7th Day Adventists are keeping the wrong day). The first month of the Jewish month is always a non-work day (no commerce), a worship day, but not a Sabbath. The Sabbaths are always the 8th, 15h, 22th and 29th of the Jewish month, coinciding precisely with the lunar phases (the 15th is always the full moon). So Nisan 15th would always fall on a Sabbath (which has nothing to do with our present Saturday, created centuries later), regardless of the year. You might want to read the other attachments.
If you enjoy, check other articles at the cited website. Thank you for your comments and best regards
> > I would very much like to hear your comments on that interpretation, as well as the implications for Prophetic studies if Pentecost happens to be on Tamuz 29 (which happens to land on August 1st, this year).
The date is Tamuz 27 on the official Hebrew Calendar. It is only Aug. 1 on their calendar.
Here is the list of "ANNUAL FESTIVAL DATES" from
"April 20 - Day of Passover Slaughter
April 21 - First Day of Unleavened Bread
April 21-27 - Feast of Unleavened Bread
April 22 - Wave sheaf - Begin Counting Seven Sabbaths
April 27 - Seventh Day of Unleavened Bread
June 11 - Seventh Sabbath in Count
June 12 - Begin Numbering Fifty Days
August 1 - Day of Pentecost (Feast of Weeks)
September 30 - Seventh New Moon; Day of Shoutings
October 9 - Day of Atonement
October 14 - First Day of Tabernacles
October 14 - 20 - Feast of Tabernacles
October 21 - Eighth Day"
Personally, I don't think Pentecost is August 1, 2008. I think it was Sivan 7 (June 10, 2008).
At first, I understood them to say that we should count 49 days from Nisan 16, add one more day, then add another 50 days. I thought that was 100 days, not 50, so right away, I didn't accept what they were saying. (Pentecost means 50)
However, I tried to count this way on the present Hebrew Calendar. I kept counting it over and over, because I kept coming up 2 days short. I was getting frustrated until I remembered that they are using their own version of the calendar the Jews use, not the official one. On the correct calendar, Tamuz 27 is the 50th day from Sivan 7, which is the 50th day from Nisan 16.
> > Notice that they say that the correct Sabbath calculation has nothing to do with the present weekly Saturday, which has Roman origins (so even the Jewish Sabbath keepers and de 7th Day Adventists are keeping the wrong day)....
> > The Sabbaths are always the 8th, 15h, 22th and 29th of the Jewish month
***I disagree with both statements. I think the 7th day has been the Sabbath ever since God RESTED in Genesis 1, and set apart that day. The name Saturday came later, but the 7th day was a Sabbath from the beginning. Gen. 2:3 says, "God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had RESTED from all his work which God created and made." If the 7th day had not been the Sabbath, Jesus would have straightened that out. He was blamed by the Pharisees for healing on the Sabbath. If it had been a different day, he would have told which was the right day.
I think the 7-day cycle is one thing that has been counted correctly ever since the beginning. I don't know of any ancient records that have been found that show the 7th-day Sabbath to be anything other than what we call Saturday.
At Mt. Sinai, the Ten Commandments told the Israelites to preserve the seventh day (our Saturday) as a day of rest. Exodus 20:8-11 says, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD THY GOD: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days (our Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday) the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY (Saturday): wherefore the LORD blessed the SABBATH DAY, and hallowed it."
During the 40 years of wandering in the desert, the Israelites were to gather manna every day but the Sabbath. If they didn't know which day was the Sabbath by then, they would have learned right away, and it would have been the correct God-given day.
Ex 16:26,27,29 says, "Six days ye shall gather it; but ON THE SEVENTH DAY, WHICH IS THE SABBATH, in it there shall be none. And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none....THE LORD HATH GIVEN YOU THE SABBATH, therefore HE GIVETH YOU ON THE SIXTH DAY THE BREAD OF TWO DAYS; abide ye every man in his place, LET NO MAN GO OUT OF HIS PLACE ON THE SEVENTH DAY."
Our possible Rapture day, Av 10, 5768, is Monday, August 11, 2008.
Eze 31:13 says, "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily (meaning this is important) MY SABBATHS YE SHALL KEEP: FOR IT IS A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND YOU THROUGHOUT YOUR GENERATIONS; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you”.
In Mark 16:1, three women observed the Saturday Sabbath rest before taking spices to the tomb to anoint Jesus' body. Mt 28:1 says, "In the end of the sabbath (i.e., 7th day), as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week (Sunday), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week (Sunday).
> > The 14th day of Abib is always the preparation day for first day of Unleavened Bread.
That is not true. Abib (Nisan) 14 is Passover, an annual Sabbath and a High Day. The "preparation of the passover" was Nisan 13. John 19:14 says of Crucifixion Day, "it was the preparation of the passover". Therefore, the Crucifixion was on Nisan 13.
> > The fact is that the 10th, 14th and 16th of Abib are, without exception, commanded work days
That is not true. Abib (Nisan) 14, 15 and 16 are feast days, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. No work is to be done on those days. They are holy convocations, annual Sabbaths.. Lev 23:4-6 says, "These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even (starting at 6 PM on Nisan 13) is the LORD'S passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD". They were to eat the roasted lamb before Midnight of Nisan 14. That midnight was 6 hours after the 14th began at 6 PM on Nisan 13.
> > If there is a continuous 7 day cycle, every few years either the 10th, 14th or 16th will fall on a “Saturday”. Evidence: Abib 10 fell on a “Saturday” in 2003. The 14th fell on “Saturday” in 2004. There is no legislation provided to do these tasks a day early or late, these WORK DATES are fixed. And YHWH never has Israel do common work on a rest day. He is not the Author of confusion.
This writer is confusing work days and rest days. The feast days are rest days, not work days. That's why the previous day (Nisan 13) is the preparation day of the Passover (Nisan 14).
> > Since the Jews in Israel today are imposters (of Edomite and/or Turkish descent—Esau’s descendants), why confidently look to them for proper Sabbath observance?
I don't believe that for a second. If the Israelites were Esau's descendants, they would merge with the PA, who are Esau's descendants.
> > Numbers 18:11-12, the Torah says that the firstfruit of the wheat harvest was expected to be accompanied by the best (firstfruit offering) of the new wine and new oil.
***Nu. 18:8-12 doesn't say that. The best of the oil, wine, and wheat that are offered are given to Aaron and his family, but not necessarily all at the same time. It doesn't say "new" wine or "new" oil. It says, "the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever. This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: every oblation of theirs, every meat offering of theirs, and every sin offering of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons. In the most holy place shalt thou eat it; every male shall eat it: it shall be holy unto thee. And this is thine; the heave offering of their gift, with all the wave offerings of the children of Israel: I have given them unto thee, and to thy sons and to thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: every one that is clean in thy house shall eat of it. All THE BEST OF THE OIL, AND ALL THE BEST OF THE WINE, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee."
> > Nehemiah 12:44 and 13:5, 12 speaks of a grain firstfruit tithe that was offered at the same time as the offerings of new wine and new oil. There were only three times in the year when a tithe of firstfruit was commanded, at the three pilgrimage feasts. The grain offered with new wine and oil could not have been barley (Spring harvest) or the general harvest at Feast of Tabernacles (Fall harvest).
However, it doesn't say "at the same time as the offerings of new wine and new oil".
Neh 12:30 gives the occasion. It says, "And the priests and the Levites purified themselves, and purified the people, and the gates, and the wall." Then Neh. 12:44 says, "And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the firstfruits, and for the tithes, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities the portions of the law for the priests and Levites".
After that, Neh 13:4-12 says, "before this, Eliashib the priest, having the oversight of the chamber of the house of our God, was allied unto Tobiah: And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the TITHES of the corn, the NEW WINE, AND THE OIL, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests....And I came to Jerusalem, and understood of the evil that Eliashib did for Tobiah, in preparing him a chamber in the courts of the house of God. And it grieved me sore: therefore I cast forth all the household stuff of Tobiah out of the chamber. Then I commanded, and they cleansed the chambers: and thither brought I again the vessels of the house of God, with the meat offering and the frankincense. And I perceived that the portions of the Levites had not been given them: for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field. Then contended I with the rulers, and said, Why is the house of God forsaken? And I gathered them together, and set them in their place. THEN BROUGHT ALL JUDAH THE TITHE OF THE CORN AND THE NEW WINE AND THE OIL UNTO THE TREASURIES".
Isn't the tithe different than the Firstfruits offering? To me, that doesn't mean that they brought the new wine and the oil to be offered at the time of the wave loaves offered on Pentecost.
Neh 13:30,31 says, "Thus cleansed I them from all strangers, and appointed the wards of the priests and the Levites, every one in his business; And for the WOOD OFFERING, AT TIMES APPOINTED, AND FOR THE FIRSTFRUITS."
To me, "AT TIMES APPOINTED" is clear that everything was to be done at its appointed time, but not necessarily all on the same date. Dry wood day is Tu B'Av, Av 15.
> > Joel 2:15-19, 24 speaks of the wheat being on the threshing floor when the new wine and new oil is in the vats. See also Haggai 1:10-11. Grapes and olives are Summer crops; they are not ready in early June.
It is not talking about Pentecost. Joel 2:15-20 says, "Blow the TRUMPET in Zion (i.e., it is the Feast of Trumpets), sanctify a fast (i.e., the upcoming Day of Atonement), call a solemn assembly: Gather the people (i.e., at the time of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, see Mark 13:27 below), sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: But I will remove far off from you the northern army" (i.e., Gog's army).
Mark 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath-Rapture saints) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (the Pre-Trib-Rapture saints). On that day, all the saints will be gathered to the "general assembly" of Heb. 12:23. At that assembly, Christ will be crowned, then seated as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Joel 2:23-25 says, "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month (i.e., the former rain comes on Tishri 1, and the latter rain comes in Nisan 1). And the floors shall be full of wheat (i.e., in the spring), and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil (i.e., in the fall). And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you."
Hag. 1:10,11 says, "Therefore the heaven over you is stayed from dew, and the earth is stayed from her fruit. And I called for a drought upon the land, and upon the mountains, and upon the corn, and upon the new wine, and upon the oil, and upon that which the ground bringeth forth, and upon men, and upon cattle, and upon all the labour of the hands." The crops are hurt by drought, whether they are spring or fall crops.
So far, the writer has failed to prove his case to me. What he says will not stand up when we read carefully the scripture he claims proves his case.
> > The passage in Leviticus 23, the "proof" text for the count to Pentecost, has a word that is not translated very well.
> > And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete. Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto YHWH. Leviticus 23:15-16.
> > 1. These are weeks as reckoned on YHWH’s calendar, not the Gregorian (Roman Catholic) calendar.
> > 2. “Unto” should be italicized as supplied text; it is not in Strong’s. Either way, THE 50 DAYS IS ADDED TO THE DAY AFTER THE SEVENTH SABBATH, NOT WAVE SHEAF. How can we count 7 Sabbaths complete, arrive at a certain date, then continue the count by returning to the original starting point to count 50 days? Can we travel backward in time?
I don't think the 50 days are added to the 49 plus 1. The total days are 50, not 100. Lev 23:15-17 (LXX) is plain. It says, "And ye shall number to yourselves from the day after the sabbath (i.e., from Firstfruits), from the day on which ye shall offer the sheaf of the heave-offering (of Abib barley), seven full WEEKS (7 x 7 = 49 days): UNTIL THE MORROW (the 50th day) AFTER THE LAST WEEK ye shall number fifty days (i.e., 50 days total), and shall bring a new meat-offering to the Lord (i.e., on Pentecost, Sivan 7). Ye shall bring from your dwelling loaves, as a heave-offering, two loaves" (of wheat bread).
> > Hath any man brought Him ought to eat? Yahushua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of Him that sent Me, and to finish His work. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are WHITE already to harvest. John 4:31-35
The harvest that shows white when ready to harvest is barley, not wheat, which is only golden.
> > This was the first month when our Savior made this statement! And in yet four months, the wheat, that had just been planted when He made this statement, would be harvested. Messiah indicates that the wheat was planted around the 2nd of Abib (no work on new moon) giving 117 days till harvest. WITHOUT QUESTION, this precludes the Feast of Weeks from occurring in early June or from the possibility that winter wheat was used for counted for this feast.
I question it. If the wheat "had just been planted," why would they need to look at the green sprigs starting to come up? Wheat and barley were both planted in the fall as soon as rain softened the ground. The barley was harvested first, and that harvest could not start until after Firstfruits. The barley would show white when ready to be harvested.
> > http://www.creationcalendar.com/CalendarIssue/FeastOfWeeks.doc
> > The evidence: Exodus 19:1 says that the children of Israel arrived at Sinai on the 16th day of the third month.
Ex. 19:1,2 actually says, "In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the SAME DAY came they into the wilderness of Sinai. For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount."
> > Please read the context. Verse one anchors this event in the third month. Moses indicates that the children of Israel rested at Rephidim the 15th of the third month. The root word for Rephidim means “rest” and this passage says that they arrived at the Wilderness of Sinai the “same day” of this month that they left Egypt (two months earlier). If you’ll remember, Israel got as far as Succoth the 15th, and ACTUALLY LEFT EGYPT...ON THE 16TH. Numbers 33:3-6. [Note: The Abib 14 is Passover day. To my present knowledge, this is the preparation day for the Passover, which took place after even, making it the dark portion of the 15th when YHWH actually “passed over” Egypt. Israel left after the death Angel passed over, early on Abib 15.]
The death Angel passed over at midnight on Abib 14. Keep in mind that the 12 hours of night proceeded the 12 hours of day for each date. The 14th started at 6 PM on Abib (Nisan) 13. Midnight was 6 hours later. At 6 AM, it was the daylight portion of Nisan 14. At 6 PM on Nisan 14 the date changed to Nisan 15.
> > “And it happened in the first year of the exodus of the children of Israel out of Egypt, IN THE 3RD MONTH, ON THE 16TH OF THE MONTH, and YHWH spoke to Moshe saying: “Ascend to me here on the mountain, and I will give to thee the two stone tablets of the law and the commandments; as I have written them, thou shalt make them known.” JUBILEES 1:1. THEIR ARRIVAL DATE, THE 16TH OF SIVAN (the third month) is well past our present count to Feast of Weeks which occurs the 6th or 7th of Sivan (depending on who is counting).
Did they actually leave Egypt on the 16th of Abib/Nisan? Num 33:3-8 says, "they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month (Nisan 15, Feast of Unleavened Bread); on the morrow after the passover (Nisan 14, Lev. 23:4,5)...And the children of Israel removed from Rameses (Nisan 15, daylight portion), and pitched in Succoth (Nisan 16, night portion). And they departed from Succoth (Nisan 16, daylight), and pitched in Etham (Nisan 17, night), which is in the edge of the wilderness. And they removed from Etham (Nisan 17, day), and turned again unto Pihahiroth, which is before Baalzephon: and they pitched before Migdol (Nisan 18, night). And they departed from before Pihahiroth (Nisan 18 day), and PASSED THROUGH THE MIDST OF THE SEA into the wilderness, and went three days' journey (Nisan 19, 20 and 21; the 7th day of Unleavened Bread) in the wilderness of Etham, and pitched in Marah" (Nisan 22, night).
Before I will accept what they say as being right, I have to compare what they say with Scripture. If it doesn't agree, I throw it out.
Therefore, I reject their belief that:
> > There are two parts or two counts that must be made before Pentecost can be “fully come.” In addition to the 7 Sabbaths complete, we need to add 50 days, not just add one day for a total of 50 days."
Lev 23:15-17 tells us how to count the days from Firstfruits to the Feast of Weeks (called Pentecost [which means 50, not 100] in the New Testament). Lev. 23:15-17 (KJV) says, "And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths (weeks) shall be complete: Even UNTO THE MORROW after the seventh sabbath (week) shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD."
NEW WINE FESTIVAL 50 DAYS AFTER PENTECOST
I was searching for information about when pomegranates were harvested in Israel. I found out that it is in August and September, but look what else I found. THE ESSENE NEW WINE FESTIVAL WAS 50 DAYS AFTER PENTECOST. That is Tamuz 27 (July 30, 2008) on the official Hebrew Calendar in use today. This festival seems not to have been kept by Pharisees and Sadducees.
"In addition, through divine revelation (as they believed), the Qumranites instituted and observed festivals NOT EXTANT AMONG OTHER ISRAELITES. THE ADDITIONAL FESTIVALS INCLUDED THE FESTIVAL OF NEW WINE, THE FESTIVAL OF NEW OIL, AND THE WOOD FESTIVAL."
Dry Wood Day, the last time of the year for bringing wood for the temple altar, is Tu B Av, Av 15, Aug 16, 2008, which is considered a good day for marriages. This is the day sorrow over the burning of the Temples turns to joy. Girls put on borrowed white dresses and dance in the vineyards. Boys come to choose their wives.
"Harvest Season of Ancient Israel"
(http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/festivals/harvest.htm) says, "The importance of grapes and olives is illustrated by the fact that the Essenes had wine and oil firstfruits festivals similar to the biblical firstfruits offering for grain. These festivals also indicate the relative timing of these crops. THE NEW WINE FESTIVAL CAME 50 DAYS OR SEVEN WEEKS AFTER PENTECOST (i.e., Tamuz 27 on the official Hebrew Calendar). Until new wine was offered, no one could drink any of the new juice (Temple Scroll, columns 19-21). FOURTEEN WEEKS (i.e., Elul 16, Sept 16, 2008) AFTER PENTECOST (Sivan 7, June 10, 2008), SHORTLY BEFORE THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS (Tishri 1, Sept 30, 2008), WAS THE NEW OLIVE OIL FESTIVAL. No one could use new olives until some oil had been offered".
JSTOR: Megillath ha-Miqdash (The Temple Scroll)The sect celebrated FOUR FESTIVALS WITH INTERVALS OF 50 DAYS BETWEEN THEM: THE FESTIVAL OF NEW BARLEY (i.e., Firstfruits), OF NEW WHEAT (Pentecost), OF NEW WINE (Tamuz 27, July 30, 2008) AND OF NEW OIL- (Elul 11, Sept 11, 2008).
In John 4:35, Jesus said, "Say not ye, There are yet FOUR MONTHS, AND THEN COMETH HARVEST? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are WHITE already to harvest." Barley is white at harvest time, which begins on Firstfruits, Nisan 16.
The four months following Nisan 16, Firstfruits, are Iyar, Sivan, Tamuz and AV. "THEN COMETH HARVEST". Could this harvest represent the Pre-Trib Rapture?
This harvest could be the grape harvest signified by the large bunch of grapes the spies brought back from their Promised Land after 40 days, or the pomegranate harvest (they brought back pomegranates too). Was this a clue to the Pre-Trib-Rapture harvest on Av 10?
Jer 8:20 says, "THE HARVEST IS PAST, THE SUMMER IS ENDED, and we are not saved." Therefore, this harvest could be in the summer.
This year, on Tamuz 29 (Friday, Aug. 1, 2008), the 52th day after Sivan 7, Pentecost, is marked by a total Solar Eclipse.
Luke 5:38 says, "new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved." In Mt 26:29, Jesus said, "I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until THAT DAY when I drink it NEW WITH YOU IN MY FATHER'S KINGDOM" ("the kingdom of God" Mark 14:25).
Does this mean that there will be new wine when we get new bodies at the time of the Rapture, when new wine would be available?
Song of Solomon 7:7-12 is very symbolic. Of the Bride of Christ, it says, "This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to CLUSTERS OF GRAPES (i.e., each bunch represents one of the two Raptures). I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples; And the roof of thy mouth like the BEST WINE for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, CAUSING THE LIPS OF THOSE THAT ARE ASLEEP TO SPEAK. I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me. Come, my beloved, let us go forth into the field (i.e., the field is the world); let us lodge in the villages. Let us get up early to the vineyards; LET US SEE IF THE VINE FLOURISH, WHETHER THE TENDER GRAPE APPEAR, AND THE POMEGRANATES BUD FORTH: there will I give thee my loves."
We know that the spies went up into the Promised Land at the time of firstripe grapes, Sivan 30 (July 3, in 2008). Forty days later, on Av 10 (Monday, August 11, in 2008), they returned to Moses bearing one bunch of grapes so large that they slung it on a pole carried on the shoulders of two men. Joshua and Caleb thought the Israelites should go up into the Promised Land then. Those that thought differently died in the desert. Their children went into the Promised Land with Joshua and Caleb at the end of the 40 years in the desert.
Does the huge bunch of grapes the spies brought to Moses AT THE END OF 40 DAYS mark the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture? There's a good chance. 1Cor 10:11 says, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (lit., ages) are come."
In Israel, pomegranates and figs ripen in August and September. Nu. 13:23 says, "And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of GRAPES, and they bare it between two upon a staff; and they brought of the POMEGRANATES, and of the FIGS." The spies brought these to Moses at the end of 40 days, on Av 10. New wine would be available at that time.
Thus the Pre-Trib Rapture could be on Av 10 (Aug. 11, 2008). Moses and Elijah will come with Christ. So will Joshua and Caleb.
One other thing I found, the Eastern Orthodox day to remember the Transfiguration is Aug. 6, 2008. In the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1, Jesus is transfigured.
In Rev 1:12-18, John, being in the spirit and caught up to Heaven, said, "I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks (i.e., the overcomers of the 7 churches were in Heaven); And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars (i.e., the Rapture just happened): and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword (i.e., to cut off the foolish virgins): and HIS COUNTENANCE WAS AS THE SUN SHINETH IN HIS STRENGTH. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first (LORD of the Old Testament) and the last (Lord of the New Testament): I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."
Maybe the day we will see Jesus like this is Av 10, 5768 (Aug 11, 2008) the day the spies took the grapes to Moses. Agape
THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE DAY OF PROVOCATION AND THE RAPTURE
1Cor 10:11 says, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (lit., ages) are come."
Psa 95:8 says, "Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness".
Heb 3:6-19 says, "Christ as a son over his own house; WHOSE HOUSE ARE WE, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, TO DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, AS IN THE PROVOCATION, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works FORTY YEARS. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER INTO MY REST.) TAKE HEED, BRETHREN, LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, IN DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, TO DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS, AS IN THE PROVOCATION. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF."
Heb 4:1-11 says, "LET US THEREFORE FEAR, LEST, A PROMISE BEING LEFT US OF ENTERING INTO HIS REST, ANY OF YOU SHOULD SEEM TO COME SHORT OF IT. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. SEEING THEREFORE IT REMAINETH THAT SOME MUST ENTER THEREIN, AND THEY TO WHOM IT WAS FIRST PREACHED ENTERED NOT IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF: AGAIN, HE LIMITETH A CERTAIN DAY, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. THERE REMAINETH THEREFORE A REST TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. LET US LABOUR THEREFORE TO ENTER INTO THAT REST, LEST ANY MAN FALL AFTER THE SAME EXAMPLE OF UNBELIEF."
Pro and Con 1420 Or Return
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