Pro and Con 1423

Posted 7-18-08

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Pope: All faiths should unite against violence

By ROHAN SULLIVAN, July 18, 2008

SYDNEY, Australia - Pope Benedict XVI on Friday urged religious leaders of all kinds to unite against those who use faith to divide communities - an apparent reference to terrorism in the name of religion.

Benedict met with representatives of Muslim, Jewish, Hindu and Buddhist faiths for about 40 minutes during the Roman Catholic Church's youth festival, which has drawn hundreds of thousands of pilgrims to Sydney....

Without mentioning terrorism directly, the pontiff said creating harmony between religion and public life was "all the more important at a time when some people have come to consider religion as a cause of division rather than a force for unity"....

Incoming e-mail

(this is awesomely prophetic as Jesus already fulfilled one persona and soon will fulfill the other!)

Does a “Dead Sea Scroll in stone” cast new light on early Jewish and Christian views of the messiah? That is the question raised by an intriguing ancient text, a question now being debated in newspapers, web sites and blogs.

The text, called “Gabriel’s Vision” by Ada Yardeni, the Israeli scholar who first published it, is written in ink on stone and dates to about the late first century B.C. and early first century A.D. The text first came to wide attention when our print publication, Biblical Archaeology Review published Yardeni’s “A New Dead Sea Scroll in Stone?” in its January/February 2008 issue (Yardeni pointed out that had the text been written on leather, she would have thought of it as another Dead Sea Scroll fragment).

“Gabriel’s Vision” consists of 87 lines, divided into two columns. The text is written in the first person, apparently by someone named Gabriel, and contains numerous Biblical phrases. It is an apocalyptic text and seems to have been written by a supporter of the Davidic dynasty. You can read Yardeni’s BAR article by clicking on the link above and you can also see her transcription of the Hebrew text and her English translation.

But now the story has taken on a new twist. A major New York Times article (July 6, 2008) described research by Hebrew University textual scholar Israel Knohl, which claims that “Gabriel’s Vision” provides important new insights into the early Jewish and Christian concepts of the messiah. A more complete article tracking Knohl’s research—by the man himself—will be published in the September/October 2008 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review.

Knohl looks at the history of Jewish and Christian messianism and explores their similarities and differences. The new stone Dead Sea Scroll opens up a new chapter in the history of this relationship, according to Knohl.

In this pre-Christian Jewish text, he finds references to two different concepts of the messiah—one, the Messiah son of David; and the other, the Messiah son of Joseph (Ephraim). The return of the messiah of David would involve a military victory. Indeed, the Davidic messiah will institute the messianic age with a “day of battle.” He will make his enemies “a footstool.” The Messiah son of David is a triumphal messiah. Ephraim, or the Messiah son of Joseph, is a very different kind of messiah and reflects a new kind of messianism. This kind of messianism involves suffering and death. In the new Dead Sea Scroll in stone, Knohl sees a messiah who suffered, died and rose.

Quoting the Gospels, Knohl finds that Jesus himself rejects the concept of the militant Messiah son of David.

Also in the stone Dead Sea Scroll, an archangel orders someone to arise from the dead in three days. Although the text is difficult, the setting clearly reflects death and bloodshed.

Watch for Knohl’s full article, “The Messiah Son of Joseph: ‘Gabriel’s Revelation and the Birth of a New Messianic Model,” in the September/October 2008 BAR, out in mid-August. It will include the full text of the stone Dead Sea Scroll, plus Professor Knohl’s reconstructions.

My reply

Thanks much.

Incoming e-mail, Re: chronology

Your chronology work on the old testament is very good but your decree of Cyrus at 454 is incorrect as Anstey started the 70 week prophecy and begun the last week concerning Jesus at His crucifixion when he should have begun it at his baptism thats why when he reached the year 3589 an hom for the beginning of the 70th week he branded it 454 but had he begun the last week with the baptism of Jesus he would have branded it 457. Please check our website it took us ten years research at a cost of nearly $30,000 to set up this site our defense was in defense of Martin Ansteys work and Phillip Mauro. It was Mauro who was able to correct Ansteys three year slip which was a very minor slip in the genius work of the romance of bible chronology please look at our 8 page chart on excel and reduce it to 75% to study it carefully. Yours sincerely, B Dobra

My reply

Thanks for your information. You may have missed a couple of my updates. I do think that 457 BC was the beginning of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, but for a different reason, which I will list below.

What reason do you have for ending the count at Jesus' baptism, when he began his public ministry?

(Update 1-10-08 - 457 BC was a Sabbatic Year and the beginning of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. The 483 years ended with the Sabbatic Year of 27 AD. To me, 27 AD is locked in by Jesus reading Isa. 61:1,2 in 27 AD. On the Day of Atonement, he was announcing the Jubilee that would start the following Nisan 1, in 28 AD (Luke 4:16--21). The year 27 AD was the Hebrew 3787. It divides evenly by 7. )

457 BC, beginning of 483 years of Dan 9:24-26:

(Update 1-10-08 - Cyrus gave the initial command, but the work was delayed by those who did not want Jerusalem rebuilt. The final command was that of Artaxerxes, in 457 BC. Then the work was completed. The 483 years ended in 27 AD.) Agape

Incoming e-mail

What if the Rapture prophesies fail and all of the Church have to go through the Great Tribulations?

THEY CAN'T FAIL. God's prophecies come true 100%. They always have, and always will. Hosea 5:9 says, "AMONG THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL HAVE I MADE KNOWN THAT WHICH SHALL SURELY BE" (aman, permanently). He told what was going to happen in ancient times before it happened so we would know that we can trust him completely when he makes known what will happen in the future. Since he says that the Rapture (Gr. harpazo) will take place, it will take place. He raptured Enoch and Elijah to prove that he could do it.

Yes God’s prophesy does come true, if the prophesy is truly from God, but not all prophesy are from God that comes through people.

I believe that the rapture doctrine is prophesy of men and not God. The pre-tribulations rapture is doctrine of men and it was invented because of fear.

Therefore I believe that it will fail and those who believe in the pre-tribulations rapture will not be prepared to face the great tribulations and they will fall in the hands of the man of sin and accept his mark. They will look upon this man of sin setting in the temple that is proclaiming to be God, and will think they have missed the rapture. The pre-tribulations rapture believers will think this man of sin is God, therefore they will hand over the true believers to be persecuted and tormented and put to death. Those who know there God will be put to death for the testimonies of Yahshua and the Commandments of God. If it were possible they could deceive the very elect.

People take the word of God and try to make it say what they want it to say. God will not be mocked;

1Corinthians 13 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will fail;

Paul said that prophecies would fail. So are you calling Paul a Liar by saying prophesy can’t fail.

My reply

> > 1Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will fail;
> > Paul said that prophecies would fail. So are you calling Paul a Liar by saying prophesy can’t fail.

I would never call Paul a liar, far from it. He was given the gospel for the Gentiles. I believe his God-breathed prophecies will come true 100%, like all the other God-breathed prophecies in the Bible.

I Cor. 13:8 doesn't mean that God's prophecies will fail to come true. It means that prophecies in part will become entirely idle, useless when that which is perfect is come, so they will vanish away. That is what the Greek KATARGEO means. Notice that it is used 3 times in I Cor. 13:8-10. There is a difference between something failing to come true and something vanishing away, when that which is perfect is come, because it was prophecy in part.

1Cor 13:8-10 (KJV) says, "Charity (agape, affection or benevolence; love) never faileth (ekpipto, becomes inefficient): but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (KATARGEO, be rendered entirely idle, useless, VANISH AWAY, BE DONE AWAY); whether there be tongues, they shall cease (pauo, stop, come to an end); whether there be knowledge, it shall VANISH AWAY (KATARGEO). For we know in part, and we PROPHESY IN PART. But when that which is perfect is come, then THAT WHICH IS IN PART SHALL BE DONE AWAY (KATARGEO)."

The LITV is clearer than the Old English the King James Version was written in. It says, "Love never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be caused to cease; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be caused to cease. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but WHEN THE PERFECT THING COMES, THEN THAT WHICH IS IN PART WILL BE CAUSED TO CEASE."

> > I believe that the rapture doctrine is prophesy of men and not God. The pre-tribulations rapture is doctrine of men

Isa 57:1-3 says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, wanders away), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away (asaph, taken away or up), none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in THEIR BEDS, each one walking in his uprightness."

Psa 149:5-9 says, "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon THEIR BEDS. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD."

Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Heb 12:25 says, "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven". Agape

Post on Five Doves site: Re: "Question on the new Earth...opinion?"

Anybody have thoughts on the verse in Revelation 21 that says that there will be no more sea? Personally, I enjoy the sea, except for the salt. I’m be thrilled if the Lord would clean it up…but, no more sea? And if there is really no sea, what happens to the sea life? I thought it might instead of water, refer to the Sea which was part of the Old Testament temple….it was basically a big bronze bowl for the priests to wash their hands in, but I looked it up in Strong’s Dictionary and it used the word for water or ocean.

My reply, Food for thought, Re: "No more sea?"

At the Second Advent, the sea will still exist.

Psa 98:6-9 says, "With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King. LET THE SEA ROAR, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together Before the LORD; for HE COMETH TO JUDGE THE EARTH: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity."


Psa 72:6-8 says of Christ, "He shall come down like rain (the latter rain starting Nisan 1; Hosea 6:3) upon the mown grass (i.e., 7 months after the Day of God's Wrath, Eze. 39:12,13): as showers that water the earth. In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth. HE SHALL HAVE DOMINION ALSO FROM SEA TO SEA, and from the river unto the ends of the earth."

Eze 47:1,2,8 says, "Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side....Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the SEA (i.e., the Dead Sea): which being brought forth into the SEA, the waters shall be healed."

Psa 104:24-30 says,"O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches. So is this great and wide SEA, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts. There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein. These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and THOU RENEWEST THE FACE OF THE EARTH."


Rev. 21:1 (KJV) says, "I SAW A NEW (kainos, new in freshness) HEAVEN AND A NEW (kainos, new in freshness) EARTH: FOR THE FIRST (protos, 1st in time or place) HEAVEN AND THE FIRST (protos, 1st in time or place) EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY (parerchomai, carried past); AND THERE WAS NO MORE SEA"


There are three heavens, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Josephus indicated that the lamps on the lampstand in the Temple stood for the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn (Ant.III. VI. 7 and Wars 5. 5. 5). Therefore, the first heaven from Earth is Mars, the second heaven is Jupiter, and the third heaven is Saturn, where Paradise and Jesus' sapphire throne (Eze. 1:26) are located.


II Cor. 12:2-4 says, "I knew a man [Paul himself] in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one CAUGHT UP (harpazo, taken up by force) TO THE THIRD HEAVEN (God's Heaven). And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that HE WAS CAUGHT UP (harpazo, taken up by force) INTO PARADISE (in God's Heaven), and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

It seems to me that the 1st heaven is Mars, and the 2nd heaven is Jupiter. Both would be passed on the way to Saturn, the 3rd heaven.

Rev. 21:1 (ISV) says, "Then I saw A NEW (kainos, new in freshness) HEAVEN AND A NEW (kainos, new in freshness) EARTH, BECAUSE THE FIRST HEAVEN (Mars?) AND THE FIRST EARTH HAD DISAPPEARED, AND THE SEA WAS GONE."

Could this mean that Mars and the Earth will be refreshed because the sea has gone away? At the present time, Mars' sea seems to be gone. I think it disappeared when Satan's planet, Rahab, was split apart, forming the Asteroid Belt. I think pieces of that planet hit Mars. As evidence, there is a huge black scar on one side of Mars. There are many craters and loose rocks littering the landscape too.

Earth's atmosphere gets hit by water comets every day. I have wondered for years if that water originally came from Mars or the planet Rahab. Isa 51:9 says, "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD (Jesus, Isa. 53:1-6, YHWH of hosts, the Redeemer, and King of Israel, Isa. 44:6); awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut (lit., split) Rahab, and wounded the dragon (Satan)?"

What happened in Noah's day that dumped so much water on Earth? All the mountains were covered.

Gen 7:19,20 says, "the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered."

Did some of this water come from icy comets sent into space when the planet Rahab was split into pieces?

At the present time, Mars seems to have lost its seas. If Earth got hit by a large asteroid, and as a result lost its seas, it too would need to be refreshed. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Purim as the middle of the Tribulation

Ben’s post at Five Doves on July 7th was very interesting
( ).

Every time I used to read the passage about “exchanging presents” in Revelation 11, the end of December came to my mind as possibility for the timing of the death of the Two Witnesses (because of Christmas presents) and the middle of the Tribulation. But if scriptures itself show a corresponding event (Esther 9) with exchange of presents, I think we should discard December as a possibility for the middle of the Tribulation and use the Jewish month of Adar as the appropriate scriptural information for the possible timing of that event.

I’ve made some calculations after his post and found some possibilities. Of course I’m not affirming that these will be correct dates mentioned by Revelation. It’s only a possibility for our consideration.

Beginning of Tribulation: just as an exercise, let’s suppose the two Witnesses begin their testimony 1260 days before Purim (Adar 14, day they are killed and that people exchange presents). In 2012 Adar 14 would fall on March 8. Three and a half days later (day that these Two Witnesses are resurrected by God and then caught up to Heaven) would fall on March 12, 2012.

I use and for these calculations.

If we count 1260 days back from March 12 2012, we get Sept. 29 2008 (the eve of the Feast of Trumpets, day that the Jewish families start the commemoration of Hosh Rashana, the evening of Tishri 1 – remember Jewish days start with the evening on the previous Gregorian day). So let’s use this date as a possible day 1 of Tribulation (just as an exercise) and see what happens with the other events (1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days etc.).

Let’s remember that the 1260 days of Tribulation could not be the same 1260 days that the Two Witnesses testify. That would happen if, for example, the Rapture took place some days before the beginning of the Tribulation and the Two Witness came to the Earth the same day of the Bridegroom came to take this Bride, as happens in the Jewish ancient wedding tradition. It’s just a possibility. We don’t know.

So, supposing the beginning of Tribulation on the evening of the Feast of Trumpets (Erev Rosh Hashana), which starts on September 29, 2008, we get:

1260 days later: March 12, 2012 (Adar 18, 5772, date of resurrection of the Two Witnesses) (Middle of Tribulation) – 4 days after PURIM . False Prophet begins his reign?

Now counting all dates from March 12, 2012:

1290 days later: September 23rd, 2015 (Tishrei 10, 5776) – YOM KIPPUR (Second Rapture instants before the Day of God’s Wrath?)

1335 days later: November 7th, 2015 (Cheshvan 25, 5776) - ???

+ approx. 7 months (total of ~ 1543 days): June 2nd 2016 (Iyyar 25, 5776) – 40th DAY OF THE OMER – ASCENSION DAY. If this happens to be the day of the Second Advent, it would be the same Jewish day and the same place from where the Lord ascended to Heaven.

Isn’t that intriguing? Would that be a coincidence? All this scenario is possible, but of course all this could be wrong. What do you think?

The problem I see with this scenario is that Sukkot (Tabernacles) doesn’t appear. The 2300 don’t appear either. About the first Rapture date, I think it would happen some days before the beginning of the Tribulation, I don’t know when. Agape

My reply

I'm thinking, "There has to be an anchor. What is the most certain anchor of the Tribulation we have." The shortened Great Tribulation ends on the Feast of Trumpets. That will be the Day of the LORD, the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture (Rev. 6:17; 7:9,14), the day Gog's army will attack Israel, and the Day of God's Wrath on Earth. In Heaven, it will be the day of the Coronation of Christ, the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage of the Lamb. It will be one day like no other--ever. Isa 13:6 says, "Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a DESTRUCTION from the Almighty."

Isa 13:9 says, "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both WITH WRATH AND FIERCE ANGER, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."

Isa 34:8 says, "For it is the DAY (i.e., Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets) of the LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the YEAR (5776) of recompences for the controversy of Zion." On our calendar, it will probably be Monday, Sept. 14, 2015.

Jer 46:10 says, "For this is THE DAY OF THE LORD GOD OF HOSTS, A DAY OF VENGEANCE, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword (i.e., Sword of the Lord, the asteroid Wormwood) shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates" (i.e., at Babylon, Iraq).

Joel 2:31 says, "The SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS (A SOLAR ECLIPSE), and the MOON INTO BLOOD (A TOTAL LUNAR ECLIPSE), before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."


JR Church mentioned these four Total Lunar Eclipses and two Total Solar Eclipses in 2014 and 2015. There are also two partial eclipses, one of which fits Scripture with such accuracy, it is astonishing. It demonstrates his omniscience and omnipotence and the absolute accuracy of Scripture.


Apr 29, 2014 Total: (Nisan 29, 5774)
Oct 23, 2014 Partial: (Tishri 29, 5775)
Mar 20, 2015 Total: (Adar 29, 5775) EVE OF NISAN 1, FIRST DAY OF SACRED YR
Sept 13, 2015 Partial: (Elul 29, 5776) EVE OF FEAST OF TRUMPETS

THIS FEAST OF TRUMPETS WILL BE TISHRI 1, 5776, EXACTLY WHEN I EXPECT THE DAY OF GOD'S WRATH. This day will be different from all other days.

Joel 1:15; 2:1,2 says, "Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand, and as A DESTRUCTION FROM THE ALMIGHTY shall it come....BLOW YE THE TRUMPET in Zion, and SOUND AN ALARM in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD COMETH, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (Gog's army, Eze. 38); THERE HATH NOT BEEN EVER THE LIKE (therefore Gog's army does not attack the USA at the beginning of the Tribulation, as some say), NEITHER SHALL BE ANY MORE AFTER IT, even to the years of many generations."

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: IT IS EVEN THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it."

Dan 12:1 says, "And at that time (when the False Prophet is deposed; Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION even to that same time: and AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE (i.e., the 144,00 Israelites of Rev. 7) SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERY ONE THAT SHALL BE FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK."

The last half of the 7-year Tribulation, the Great Tribulation is to be shortened. Mt 24:22 says, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be SHORTENED."

Shortened by how much? Dan. 8:13,14 says, "HOW LONG shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (i.e., the first half of the Tribulation), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?" (the last half of the Tribulation) And he said unto me, Unto TWO THOUSAND AND THREE HUNDRED DAYS; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

2008 + 7 = 2015. Tishri 1, 5776 is Mon., Sept 14, 2015. Could that be the great and terrible Day of the Lord? Yes! It is a Jewish Leap Year with the 13th month. That is necessary for there to be 7 months between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1, the time of the Second Advent. Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (i.e., at the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD." Our anchor is holding.

If Tishri 1, 5776 is the end of the shortened Tribulation, when would it begin? Tishri 1, 5776 - 2300 days = Sivan 6, 5709, Pentecost (May 29, 2009).

Sivan 6, 5709 + 1260 days = Cheshvan 23, 5773 gives us Thur., Nov. 8, 2012 for Mid-Trib.

> > the last 1260 days (before it is shortened), the 1290 days, and the 1335 days

All of these are counted from Mid-Trib. Dan 12:11-13 says, "from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up (Mid-Trib), there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot (i.e., plot of land in Israel) at the end of the days" (the 1335 days).

The year of the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent has to be a Jewish Leap Year, because there are 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12,13). 5776 (2015/16) is a Leap Year.

Can you think of a way that the facts could fit a different year? Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Fruit of the Earth

Praise The Lord.

As I came across your site the other day, i notice something very informing, regarding the (likely timing of the rapture), after i read it THE LORD, drop this scripture in my mind, James 5:7, Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of our Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he recieve the early and latter rain.


My reply

Yes. The early (former) rain starts Tishri 1. The latter rain starts Nisan 1. After Nisan, there is virtually no rain until Tishri. The time of firstripe grapes is on Sivan 30, after both rains are over. Agape

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