Pro and Con 1424

Posted 7-28-08

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Incoming e-mail, Re: A "departing first"

From: Jim Bramlett

You are no doubt familiar with 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which says: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (KJV). Note the emphasis on the words "falling away." The Greek word for that phrase is apostasia, which Strong's defines as "a falling away, defection, apostasy." Based on the KJV translation, we have always assumed that it means what it says: "falling away."

Certainly, the modern word "apostasy" is almost identical to the Greek word "apostasia." However, there is growing thought that "apostasy" is not the best translation and that the verse is really referring to the rapture, or departing. This is based on the wording in all the major English Bibles before the King James version in 1611.

In Emil Gaverluk's book, "The Rapture before the Russian invasion of Israel," pages 173-177, the author has actual copies of original pages of seven major pre-KJV English versions of the Bible that show the Greek word apostasia translated as "departing first." For examples, the following Bibles translate 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as shown:

1. Wycliffe Bible (1330), "departynge first"
2. Tyndale Bible (1525/26), "departynge first"
3. Coverdale Bible 1535), "departynge first"
4. Crammer Bible (1539), "departynge first"
5. Beeches Bible (1583), "departing first"
6. Beza Bible (1583), "departing first"
7. Geneva Bible (1560), "departing first"

Thanks to Marilyn Agee for those dates above and also for the following which shows other verses where the verb form of apostasia is defined as "departure":

2 Timothy 2:19 says, "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ DEPART from iniquity."

1 Timothy 6:5 says, "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such WITHDRAW thyself."

2 Corinthians 12:8 says, "For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might DEPART from me."

Acts 12:10 says, "When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel DEPARTED from him."

Luke 4:13 says, "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he DEPARTED from him for a season."

If "departing" is the correct translation of apostasia as those seven pre-KJV translations indicate, and as other uses of the word in the New Testament indicate, we have a totally different understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3, and it appears that nothing else has to happen before our "departing," glory to God!
From: "Mark Biltz"
To: "Jim Bramlett"
Subject: Re: A "departing first"

We can't go by the English word but the the Greek. All the references Marilyn Agee used for the word departing is the same Greek word aphistemi which is a a different Greek word than what was used in 2Thess. See for yourself. I'm not saying the concept is wrong, it's just that I wouldn't be using those verses to make your point. Be Blessed! Pastor Mark

#646. apostasia, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah defection from truth
#868. aphistemi, af-is'-tay-mee to remove
From: Jim Bramlett
Subject: Fwd: Re: A "departing first"

Marilyn, what do you think? Please advise. Jim

My reply

The interesting scriptures below are talking about the second Rapture. It will be on the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 6:17; 7:9,14), but before the asteroids of Rev. 8:8-11 hit Earth.

Psalm 27:5 says, "IN THE TIME OF TROUBLE he shall HIDE ME in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he HIDE ME; he shall SET ME UP UPON A ROCK" (i.e., a planet).

The secret of his tabernacle seems to be that the Holy Place, made up of two cubes, represented the first and second heavens, Mars and Jupiter, and the cubed Holy of Holies represented the third heaven, Saturn. Cubes represent spheres (which would fit in a cube-shaped box), because the length, breadth and height are equal in both.

Zeph 2:3 says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID in the DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER."

> > "We can't go by the English word but the the Greek. All the references Marilyn Agee used for the word departing is the same Greek word aphistemi which is a a different Greek word than what was used in 2Thess. See for yourself. I'm not saying the concept is wrong, it's just that I wouldn't be using those verses to make your point. Be Blessed! Pastor Mark

> > #646. apostasia, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah defection from truth
> > #868. aphistemi, af-is'-tay-mee to remove"

Apostasia is the feminine of the noun apostasion. Apostasion is from a derivative of aphistemi. The verb aphistemi is used to mean DEPARTURE 13 out of 17 occurances. That impresses me.

In "Re-Thinking the Rapture," p. 69, E. Schuyler English said, "It is evident, then that the verb aphisteemi does have the meaning to depart in the New Testament, in a very general sense which is not specialized as being related to rebellion against God or forsaking the faith. And, since A NOUN TAKES ITS MEANING FROM THE VERB, the noun, too, may have such a broad connotation."

Since the verb aphistemi is a root of apostasia, a feminine noun, the meaning of apostasia probably has something to do with "to remove," and the Rapture is a removal.

The verb aphistemi is translated "departed" 6 times (Luk 2:37, Luk 4:13, Act 12:10, Act 15:38, Act 19:9, Act 22:29), "depart" 4 times (Luk 13:27, 2Co 12:8, 1Ti 4:1, 2Ti 2:19), "away" 2 times (Luk 8:13, Act 5:37), and "departing" once (Heb 3:12).

Number 646, apostasia, a feminine noun, is a compound of apo (from) and istemi (stand). It means stand away from or DEPARTURE.

No. 868, aphistemi, a verb, means TO DEPART, TO REMOVE, TO WITHDRAW SELF.

Number 2476, histemi, means TO ESCAPE IN SAFETY. That is exactly what we will do at the Rapture.

I'm convinced that 2 Thess 2:3 should read as in the Geneva Bible: "Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come A DEPARTING FIRST, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,"

In the Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek, apostasia means: 1. rebellion against God, apostasy, 2. DEPARTURE, DISAPPEARANCE, 3. distinguishing, and 4. distance.


Actually, in 2 Thess 2:3, it is "he apostasia," THE DEPARTURE, or THE DISAPPEARANCE. That makes a big difference. Why?

In Scripture, the use of the definite article means that THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE ALREADY HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED TO. IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD ALREADY KNOW. II Thess. 2:1-17 refers back to when the Rapture was discussed previously in 1 Thess 4:13-18. To understand the Rapture, then the revealing of the man of sin afterward, we should put all the information in the two passages together.

This is similar to what we have to do with the accounts of Jesus walking on water. John 6:21 says, "Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went." Unless we also read Mark 6:47, we don't realize the great miracle that happened. It says, "And when even was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone on the land." The ship was in the middle of the sea, which was about 8 miles across. Then it was immediately transported to the other side, about 4 miles. To understand the instantaneous transportation miracle, we had to know that they were in the middle of the sea.

I think that in the Rapture, we will be transported quickly to Heaven. Our Cassini spacecraft took 7 years to get to Saturn, but we may get there in a flash. On Resurrection Day, Jesus made the trip to Heaven and back in part of a day, demonstrating this to us..

In 2Th 2:5, Paul said, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I TOLD YOU THESE THINGS?" He was referring to I Thess. 4:13-18. This shows us that he was talking about the departure in the Rapture.

Let's look at I Thess. 4:13-18 and 2 Thess. 2:1 (KJV) and look for parallels. Both passages are to comfort us, not alarm us.
1Th 4:13: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS WHICH HAVE NO HOPE. (Titus 2:13 says, "Looking for THAT BLESSED HOPE, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ".)
1Th 4:14: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (the dead in Christ) will God (Jesus) bring with him.
1Th 4:15: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto THE COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent (Old English for precede) them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16: "For THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
2Th 2:1: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM (i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture),
2Th 2:2: "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (the day of the Lord in major manuscripts found after the KJV was translated) is at hand.
2Th 2:3: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (i.e., the Day of the Lord) shall not come, except there come A FALLING AWAY FIRST, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED (SECOND) the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4: "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God (Mid-Trib), shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:6: "And now ye know what withholdeth (i.e., the Holy Spirit in believers, the salt of the Earth; salt in breadmaking retards the growth of leaven) that he might be revealed in his time (the Tribulation).
2Th 2:7: "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only HE (the Holy Spirit) WHO NOW LETTETH WILL LET (Old English for hindereth will hinder), UNTIL HE BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY (at the Rapture, FIRST).
2Th 2:8: "AND THEN SHALL THAT WICKED BE REVEALED (SECOND), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9: "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10: "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11: "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12: "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF OF THE TRUTH:
2Th 2:14: "Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:15: "Therefore, brethren (believers), STAND FAST, and HOLD THE TRADITIONS WHICH YE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT, WHETHER BY WORD, OR OUR EPISTLE (i.e., I Thess. 4:13-18).
2Th 2:16: "Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and HATH GIVEN US EVERLASTING CONSOLATION AND GOOD HOPE through grace,
2Th 2:17: "COMFORT YOUR HEARTS, and stablish you in every good word and work." (If we were destined to be here during the Tribulation, that news would not comfort us.)
Today, we have some major manuscripts found after the King James Version was made. These MSS have "the day of the Lord". Constantine Tischendorf gave us some good information on this in his Introduction to the Tischendorf New Testament. He said, "The Authorised Version, like Luther's, was made from a Greek text which Erasmus in 1516, and Robert Stephens in 1550, had formed from manuscripts of later date than the tenth century....Since the sixteenth century Greek manuscripts have been discovered of far greater antiquity than those of Erasmus and Stephens; as well as others in Latin, Syriac, Coptic, and Gothic, into which languages the sacred text was translated between the second and fourth centuries..."

Most major MSS have day of the Lord: the Vatican Codex, Alexandrine Codex, Sinaitic Codex, Griesbach, Lachmann, Tischendorf, 8th Ed., Tregelles, Alford, and Wordsworth.


1Th 4:18 says, "COMFORT one another with these words."

2Th 2:16,17 says, "Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us EVERLASTING CONSOLATION and GOOD HOPE through grace. COMFORT your hearts".





1Th 4:15 says, "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto THE COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent (Old English for precede) them which are asleep."

2Th 2:1 says, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM".


2Th 2:3 says, "there come A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed (SECOND), the son of perdition".
2Th 2:7 says, "HE (the Holy Spirit) WHO NOW LETTETH WILL LET (Old English for hindereth will hinder), UNTIL HE BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY" (FIRST).

The Holy Spirit will hinder the appearance of the man of sin until he is taken out of the way at the Rapture. Therefore, the "FALLING AWAY FIRST" is equal to the time when the Holy Spirit is "TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY" at the Rapture that preceeds the revealing of the man of sin.


Jerome translated APOSTASIA with the Latin DISCESSIO, A SPATIAL DEPARTURE.

The WEB says, "it will not be, unless THE DEPARTURE comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction".

The HNV says, "it will not be, unless THE DEPARTURE comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction".

An Amplified Bible footnote says, "A possible rendering of apostasia is DEPARTURE [of the church].

An Expanded Translation by Kenneth Wuest uses DEPARTURE.


The Pre-Trib Rapture comes first, then the Tribulation. The last Day of the shortened Tribulation is the great and terrible Day of the Lord. As soon as it arrives, the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place.

G646 apostasia, noun, feminine

Strong's: Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), ("apostasy"): - falling away, forsake.

Thayer's: 1) a falling away, defection, apostasy,

A Related Word: feminine of the same as G647


Liddell & Scott: revolt / DEPARTURE

G647 apostasion: noun neuter

Strong's: Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly SOMETHING SEPARATIVE, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement

Thayer's: 1) divorce, repudiation, 2) a bill of divorce

A Related Word: neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868

G868 aphistemi, verb

Strong's: From G575 (apo) and G2476 (histemi); to remove, that is, (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: - DEPART, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
Thayer's: 1) to make stand off, CAUSE TO WITHDRAW, TO REMOVE, 1a) to excite to revolt, 2) to stand off, to stand aloof, 2a) to go away, TO DEPART from anyone, 2b) to desert, withdraw from one, 2c) to fall away, become faithless, 2d) to shun, flee from, 2e) to cease to vex one, 2f) to withdraw one’s self from, to fall away, 2g) to keep one’s self from, absent one’s self from

A Related Word:from G575 (apo) and G2476 (histe¯mi)

G575 apo, preposition

Strong's: A primary particle; "off", that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, DEPARTURE, cessation, completion, reversal.

Thayer's: 1) of separation, 1a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place, i.e. of DEPARTING, of fleeing, ..., 1b) of separation of a part from the whole, 1b1) where of a whole some part is taken, 1c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed, 1d) of a state of separation, that is of distance, 1d1) physical, of distance of place, 1d2) temporal, of distance of time 2) of origin, 2a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken, 2b) of origin of a cause.

G2476 histe¯mi, verb

Strong's: A prolonged form of a primary word sta´? stao¯ (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.

Thayer's: 1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set, 1a) to bid to stand by, [set up], 1a1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin, 1a2) to place, 1b) to make firm, fix establish, 1b1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place, 1b2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), TO ESCAPE IN SAFETY, 1b3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand, 1b3a) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything, 1c) to set or place in a balance, 1c1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed), 2) to stand, 2a) to stand by or near, 2a1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm, 2a1a) of the foundation of a building, 2b) to stand, 2b1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared, 2b2) to be of a steadfast mind, 2b3) of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver.

In I Thessalonians, Paul didn't mention apostasy. However, he indicated the Rapture in several places and comfort in at least two places..

1Th 1:10 says, "And to WAIT FOR his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even JESUS, WHICH DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME."

1Th 2:19 says, "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even YE IN THE PRESENCE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST AT HIS COMING?"

1Th 3:13 says, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, AT THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.


1Th 5:4-11 says, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore COMFORT YOURSELVES TOGETHER, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

It definitely is comforting to understand that the 1st Rapture will precede the Tribulation and the 2nd Rapture will precede God's Wrath.

Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The wise virgins and Philadelphians are the ones that will be accounted worthy. Jesus had no words of condemnation for them.

Here is II Thess. 2:6-10 from the literal Concordant Version:
"And now you are aware what is DETAINING, for him (the Wicked one) to be UNVEILED IN HIS OWN ERA [the Tribulation]. For the secret of lawlessness is already operating. ONLY WHEN THE PRESENT DETAINER [the Holy Spirit, restraining in the present era] may be COMING TO BE OUT OF THE MIDST [as he takes the Raptured saints that he indwells to Heaven first], THEN [second] will be unveiled the lawless one (whom the Lord Jesus will despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence), whose presence is in accord with the operation of Satan, with all power and signs and false miracles (Rev. 13:13,14) and with every seduction of injustice among those who are perishing, because they do not receive the love of the truth for their salvation."

The era of the False Prophet is the Tribulation. It is the Seventieth Week of Daniel (Dan. 9:27). It is the fifth cycle of discipline for Israel (Lev. 26:28). It is not our era. We are of the church era.

After the Pre-Trib Rapture of Rev. 4:1 and before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6 to kick off the Tribulation, we see the church saints in Heaven. They are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" and have been (past tense) made "unto our God kings and priests" (Rev. 5:9,10). The Pre-Trib Rapture is FIRST, and the beginning of the Tribulation SECOND. "The Lord knoweth how to DELIVER the godly out of temptations (FIRST), and to reserve the unjust (SECOND) unto the day of judgment to be punished" (II Pet. 2:9).

Rev. 3:10, in the Concordant Version, says, "...I love you. Seeing that you keep the word of My endurance, I, also, WILL BE KEEPING YOU OUT OF THE HOUR OF TRIAL (FIRST) which is ABOUT TO BE COMING (SECOND) on the WHOLE INHABITED EARTH to try those dwelling on the earth. I AM COMING SWIFTLY! (at the Rapture) HOLD WHAT YOU HAVE, that no one may be taking your wreath" (crown)...Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias" (the called out ones). Agape

My reply to a post on Five Doves site that was FWD to me


> > Av 9 begins for Israel the evening of 8-8-2008. The Olympic games will begin that evening in China.
> > There is one component of the opening of Olympic games which is brief in time and space yet significant. This is the dedication of the events and participants to the sun god of the ancient Greeks. It takes place in the midst of great pagentry for the eyes. (from Jean's 2nd post on 5 Doves that day).

8-8-8 sure looks significant. This is the first I have heard about the Olympics being dedicated to the sun god.

> > The number 8 is associated with new beginnings and/or departure.

The number 8 ties in with Sunday, which would be the 8th day of the week, a new beginning. It also ties in with Resurrection, because Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. Let's see, how does it tie in with departure?

In the days of Noah, 8 people were saved. All 8 stepped out of the Ark to start a new order. It was a new beginning, and the beginning of spring and fall rains..

The Transfiguration was on the 8th day.

> > Av 9 concludes the 21 day period of mourning leading up to it. The first day and the last day are traditional days of fasting. Did not the Master say that when the groom is away you will fast but when he returns you will not fast? Is this a clue for the timing of the return of the groom for His bride?

Maybe. The Jews will not fast on Av 10, which is the 40th day after the spies entered the Promised Land. According to Jeremiah, it is the day Solomon's Temple went up in smoke. Will we go up in clouds on Av 10 too?

Jer 52:12,13 says, "Now in the fifth month, in the TENTH DAY of the month (Av 10), which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem, And burned the house of the LORD".

> > When we look to signs of the times this period ahead of 21 days may apply. Recently I have been writing about the 2 Temples which were in Jerusalem and the eternal Temple of living stones. The theme of these 3 lead up to 8-8 and Av 9 this year.

Zech 8:19 says, "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth (Av 9), and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts; therefore love the truth and peace." Agape

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