Pro and Con 1435
Incoming e-mail, Re: Then His Voice Shook the Earth
My name is David Lowe, author of two books on Bible prophecy, Earthquake Resurrection and Then His Voice Shook the Earth....
I am inviting you to read the second book...
To this day, I still love God's Word, and still believe that the rapture and resurrection will take place prior to the day of the Lord's wrath, but not in the same way the traditional pre-trib view lays it out. This is due to a new understanding of what John was shown in Revelation chapters 4-5, as well as the meaning of the "trumpet of God" which sounds just before the future resurrection of the dead in Christ.
...let me know your thoughts. It may be difficult if you will not consider any other view than the Left Behind pre-trib view, but I would still like to know...
I look forward to your reply, David Lowe (www.earthquakeresurrection.com)
> > The royal priesthood was established when Jesus Christ ratified the new covenant by shedding his blood once and for all. If the NEW SONG is sung at least 2,000 years after the establishment of the new covenant, then that would make the establishment of the kingdom of priests referred to in the song a "new" event. BUT THIS CANNOT BE THE CASE. In I Peter 2:9, Peter declared that believers are a royal priesthood, and John declared in Revelation 1:6 that believers are a kingdom of priests, both of which were written in the first century. The PROPER INTERPRETATION of this NEW SONG, therefore, is that it was sung in celebration of the new covenant that had been established at the death and resurrection of Christ nearly 2,000 years ago, NOT IN THE FUTURE. The content of the song was that Jesus had purchased mankind with his blood and made believers a kingdom of priests, all of which occurred in approximately 31-32 AD. This provides more proof that what John saw in the vision of Revelation chapters 4 and 5 was:
> > 1. The throne room scene just before Jesusí ascension to the throne,
2. The appearance of Jesus in the throne room after his ascension,
3. His procession to Godís right hand to take the seven-sealed scroll, and
4. The reaction of the 24 elders and the four living creatures to his appearance at that particular time.
> > It is important to remember that John was not seeing the actual events as they took place, but that HE WAS SHOWN A VISION OF THE EVENTS WHICH TOOK PLACE AT THE TIME OF JESUS' ASCENSION.
David, we are miles apart on this. Since you asked, I'll give you my opinion.
Keep in mind that the NEW SONG will be sung by saints after both Raptures, but only the 144,000 can sing it at the second Rapture.
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is like a miracle play with Jesus as director. The script is written as if the time is 10 days before the Pre-Trib Rapture. That's why Rev. 2:10 says, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation TEN DAYS: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a CROWN OF LIFE."
Crowns are given at the Raptures. James 1:12 says, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation (peirasmos, trial): for when he is tried, HE SHALL RECEIVE THE CROWN OF LIFE, WHICH THE LORD HATH PROMISED TO THEM THAT LOVE HIM."
In the Revelation, it is as if Jesus stood at a point 10 days before the Pre-Trib Rapture and looked both backward and forward to show us things that have taken place before that point in time, at that point in time, and after that point in time. The Rapture is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). When Jesus signs off at the end, he says, "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (Rev. 2:5).
Jesus introduced himself in the Introduction. In Rev. 1:8, he said, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning AND the ending, saith the Lord, which is (at the time of the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), the ALMIGHTY."
After the Introduction and the Preview of the Rapture in chapter one, in verse 19, Jesus told John to "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., before the Rapture), and the things which are (at the time of the Rapture), and the things which shall be HEREAFTER" (after the Rapture).
Immediately after that, John recorded Jesus' assessment of the 7 churches. He drew things from their past, present and future.
In Rev. 3:8-10, Jesus told the Philadelphians, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an OPEN DOOR, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (hupomone, patient endurance, waiting), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial, putting to proof, i.e., the Tribulation), which shall come upon all the world, to try (peirazo, test) them that dwell upon the earth."
After this precious promise, Jesus warned the Laodiceans in 3:16, saying, "because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth".
The Body of Christ has two legs. I think they represent the two groups that will be caught up to Heaven, the Philadelphians at the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Tribulation saints at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The Philadelphians are the first group to be caught up. Jesus had no words of condemnation for them. Today, the Pre-Trib Rapture is near.
Rev 4:1-4 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet (the first trump; I Thess. 4:16) talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper (first stone in the breastplate) and a sardine stone (last stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the first and the last, LORD of the Old Testament and Lord of the New Testament): and there was a rainbow (Saturn's ring system) round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald (Judah's stone in the breastplate, i.e., Jesus is the Lion of the tribe of Judah). And round about the throne were four and twenty seats (lit., thrones): and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."
Isa 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first (YHWH King of Israel), AND I am the last (YHWH of hosts, the redeemer); and beside me there is no God."
I think the 24 elders are John and the other 11 apostles plus the 12 patriarchs of Israel.
Nu.10:1-4 says, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, THEN THE PRINCES, WHICH ARE HEADS OF THE THOUSANDS OF ISRAEL, SHALL GATHER THEMSELVES UNTO THEE." These princes represent the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles of Israel.
The first "trump of God" is the Pre-Trib Rapture (I Thess. 4:16). The "last trump" is the Pre-Wrath Rapture (I Cor. 15:51-54). When one trumpet sounds, the 24 princes of Israel (including John) will be caught up and seated on their thrones in Heaven. When both trumpets sound, the 144,000 will be caught up to God. Besides them, there will be a great multitude of Tribulation saints caught up to Heaven.
David will sing the new song. Psa 40:1-3 says, "I (David) waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up (i.e., as if in the 1st Rapture) also out of an horrible pit (as Jeremish was pulled up out of a miry pit in the Earth), out of the miry clay (i.e., our bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (the planet Heaven), and established my goings (at the Rapture). And he hath put a NEW SONG in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."
Psalm 149:1-5 says of the congregation of saints in Heaven after the Rapture, "Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a NEW SONG, and his praise IN THE CONGREGATION OF SAINTS. Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp. For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. Let the saints be joyful IN GLORY (i.e., in Heaven): let them sing aloud upon their beds."
After the first Rapture, all saints in "the congregation of saints" will sing the new song, but after the second Rapture, only the 144,000 will sing the new song.
Rev 14:1-5 is about the Pre-Wrath Rapture. After it, only the 144,000 can sing the NEW SONG. It says, "I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn THAT SONG but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."
Since Jesus, both God and man, is sitting on his throne in Heaven in Rev. 4:2, a Lamb represents him in Rev. 5:6,7. It says, "And I beheld, and, lo, IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."
> > As Revelation chapter 6 opens, the Lamb is described as opening the first seal of the scroll that he just took out of the right hand of the Father at the end of Revelation chapter 5. Thousands of years did not pass between his sitting down at the right hand of God, taking the scroll, and opening the first seal. What is described in Revelation chapter 4 through the beginning of chapter 6 should be treated as one continuous vision of the heavenly throne room just prior to, and just after, the FIRST CENTURY ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God.
Instead of first century, Rev. 6 has to do with the course of the coming Seventieth Week of Daniel, the Tribulation. Look how it starts with the revealing of the 1st Beast of Rev. 13 at the beginning of the Tribulation and ends with the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the Tribulation.
Rev 6:1.2 says, "I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him (i.e., the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10) had a bow (toxon, a bow made out of the simplest fabric; i.e., a symbol of a religious leader, a man of the cloth; i.e., a Pope); and A CROWN WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."
Who in the first century fulfilled this? No one. "A form of papal crown is first mentioned in the vita of Pope Constantine (eighth century". Today, the Pope's coat of arms pictures the Papal Tiera (Wikipedia).
"The various parts of the papal symbol, shown below, describe the power of the papacy, one who, as Pope Leo XIII explained, occupies "the place on earth of God Almighty."
"Most notable in the papal emblem is the tiara, or triple crown. Until recently, during the coronation of a new pope, the tiara was placed on his head with the words: "Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns, and know that you are Father of princes and kings, guide of the world, vicar of our Savior Jesus Christ."
"Pope Benedict XVI has dispensed with the image of the three-tiered tiara that traditionally appeared at the top of each pope's coat of arms and replaced it with the pointed miter." (http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0502625.htm)
It looks like the next Pope could be the man of the cloth of Rev. 6.
Rev 6:12-17 says, "I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"
> > The Four Horses and Riders Represent Spirits
> > The opening of the seals represented the unlocking and progression of future events from Johnís first century perspective. The events symbolized within the seals were future and prophetic as he saw them in the first century. One should not assume that the events are only future and prophetic from a modern-day perspective. As John saw them unfolding in his vision, they would have been future events, or "what will happen after," from his perspective.
To me, the seals represent events during the Tribulation, from Christ's perspective 10 days before the Pre-Trib Rapture. The Tribulation will begin soon afterward..
> > If the opening of the first seal in Revelation 6:2, then, represents the pouring out of the Spirit and the progression of the kingdom of God through the church as birthed in Acts chapter 2, then it is also in perfect chronological order with the first century ascension to the right hand of God as described in Revelation 5:7.
I think the first seal will be broken as the Tribulation begins, probably next Pentecost, Sivan 6, 5769 (May 29, 2009).
> > The symbols of the bow and the crown are further representations of a spirit of conquering and domination. The rider of the white horse should not be interpreted as an actual human being, such as the future Antichrist
I think he is an actual human being, a man of the cloth. Mt 7:15 warns us to "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
> > The spirit at work within the first seal (symbolized by a white horse with a bow and crown) began its domination on the earth in the FIRST CENTURY after Christís finished work on the cross and ascension to Godís right hand.
Christ does not receive the seven-sealed little book, the title deed to the Earth until after the first Rapture. Therefore, he doesn't break the first seal until after the Pre-Trib Rapture.
> > The importance of the burning of the incense in Revelation chapter 8, therefore, is seen in that Godís vengeance is withheld until Jesus Christ, the high priest, offers the requests for vengeance on the incense altar and the fragrant smoke proceeds up to him. Just as the tearing of the veil of the temple represented a new and living way opened up for believers to the throne of grace, so the offering of the incense by the high priest on the golden altar before the throne of God triggers the unleashing of the vengeance of the Lord. No longer will the vengeance be withheld, and the seven angels will then be allowed to begin blowing the trumpets they are given.
> > This means, of course, that the first seal cannot be what it has traditionally been taught to be by nearly all pre-millennial prophetic models: the beginning of the Apocalypse, or day of the Lordís wrath. The wrath within the trumpet and bowl judgments is withheld until the offering of incense, and therefore, the opening of the seals do not constitute any part of the wrath of God, the Apocalypse, or Danielís 70th week. Instead, the first five seals are part of the progression of history from the first century until the present, and the sixth seal embodies the catastrophic resurrection and catching-up event. constitute any part of the wrath of God, the Apocalypse, or Danielís 70th week.
I agree with you that the first seal is not the beginning of the Day of the Lord's Wrath. That comes at the sixth seal. The 2300-day Tribulation of Dan. 8:13,14 starts at the first seal and ends at the sixth seal.
Dan 8:13,14 says,"How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (i.e., the first half of the Tribulation), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib,Mt. 24:15), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? (the last half of the Tribulation) And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
Rev. 6:12-17 says, "I beheld when he had opened the SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne (i.e., they see the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky; Mt. 24:30), and from the wrath of the Lamb: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"
> > Instead, the first five seals are part of the progression of history from the first century until the present, and the sixth seal embodies the catastrophic resurrection and catching-up event.
The breaking of the first seal is at the beginning of the Tribulation. The sixth seal ends when the Day of God's Wrath has come. Then the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place (Rev. 7:9,14), leaving only unbelievers on Earth. After that, God's Wrath hits Earth with terrible destruction when the 2 asteroids of Rev. 8:8-11 impact Earth. That is what is depicted by the censer filled with fire being cast on the Earth in Rev 8:5. It says, "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake."
> > Jesus listed events identical to the events of the first five seals and called them "birth pains" before the end, but the events of the trumpets and bowls definitely occur after the day of Godís wrath has begun."
The birth pains precede the Tribulation, but you are right about the trumpets and bowls taking place after the Day of God's Wrath has begun.
> > the events of the trumpet and bowl judgments will take place after the day of wrath has come.
That is correct. The Revelation is organized by circle clocks. To see what I mean, draw a large circle on an 8x11 sheet of paper. Inside that outer circle, draw 7 circles touching each other, 6 around the edges and the 7th in the center. Label the 6 circles as the 6 seals.
In the 7th circle, draw another similar clock. Label the 6 circles as the 6 trumpets. In the 7th circle in the center, draw another circle clock. Label the 7 circles as the 7 vials of God's Wrath.
Thus, the trumpets come out of the 7th seal, and the vials of God's wrath come out of the 7th trumpet.
Re: SYNOPSIS: THEN HIS VOICE SHOOK THE EARTH
> > The reason for Paul's mysterious trip to Arabia after his conversion
I did a lot of study on the location of Mt. Sinai. I'm convinced it was not in Saudi Arabia. I found out that it was in ARABIA PETREA, i.e., JEBEL HELAL, in the eastern coastal desert of the Sinai Peninsula. The Israelites did not take the Way to the Philistines that was right on the coast. The Lord took them north along the Way to Shur. That was the next roadway inland but still in the coastal desert.
How did I figure it out? The Israelites never left the desert that lay along the Mediterranean coast, and they took the WAY TO SHUR." That trail went north from Egypt to the Promised Land a bit inland from the Mediterranean coast. Look at a map of the Sinai Peninsula in your KJV Bible. In my Scofield edition, it is map # 2.
Ex 15:22 says, "So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea (between Egypt and the Sinai Peninsula), and they went out into the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT) OF SHUR (MEANING A WALL, A REGION IN THE DESERT TOWARD EGYPT, SOUTHWEST OF THE PROMISED LAND); and they went three days in the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT), and found no water."
1Sam 15:7 says, "Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to SHUR, THAT IS OVER AGAINST EGYPT."
Ex 19:1.2 says, "In the third month (Sivan), when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT) OF SINAI. For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the DESERT (MIDBAR) of SINAI, and had pitched in the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT); and THERE Israel camped before the mount (SINAI)."
Ex 17:1 says, "And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed from the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT) OF SIN (siyn, THE TRACT OF WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT) BETWEEN ELIM AND SINAI), after their journeys, according to the commandment of the LORD, and pitched in Rephidim: and there was no water for the people to drink."
Lev 7:38 says, "Which the LORD commanded Moses in mount Sinai, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the LORD, in the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT) OF SINAI."
Nu 1:1 says, "And the LORD spake unto Moses in the (MIDBAR, DESERT) OF SINAI, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month (Iyar), in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt".
Ex. 3:18 says, "The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT), that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God."
Ex 16:1 says, "And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT) of Sin, WHICH IS BETWEEN ELIM AND SINAI, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt."
Ex. 5:1 says, "And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT)."
Ex. 7:16 says, "And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT)."
Ex. 8:27,28 says, "We will go three days' journey into WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT), and sacrifice to the LORD our God, as he shall command us. And Pharaoh said, I will let you go, that ye may sacrifice to the LORD your God in the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT); only ye shall not go very far away".
Ex 13:18 says, "But God led the people about, through the way of the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT) of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt."
Ex 13:20 says, "And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT)."
Ex 14:3 says, "For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT) hath shut them in."
Ex 14:11 says, "And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT)?"
Ex 14:12 says, "Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT)."
Ex 16:2 says, "And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT)."
Ex 16:3 says, "And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT), to kill this whole assembly with hunger."
Ex 16:10 says, "And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT), and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud."
Ex 16:14 says, "And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT) there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground."
Ex 16:32 says, "And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth, Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations; that they may see the bread wherewith I have fed you in the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT), when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt."
Ex 18:5 says, "And Jethro, Moses' father in law, came with his sons and his wife unto Moses into the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT), where he encamped at the mount of God".
Lev 7:38 says, "Which the LORD commanded Moses in mount Sinai, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the LORD, in the WILDERNESS (MIDBAR, DESERT) OF SINAI."
For my reasons for expecting the Rapture on the next Feast of Trumpets, see the top of my Home Page. Agape
Pro and Con 1436 Or Return
Contact me for more information at: firstname.lastname@example.org
8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (951) 653-4110
© 1996-2008, Marilyn J. Agee; Updated 9-19-08