Pro and Con 1437

Posted 9-24-08

Hot pole on Saturn's Moon Enceladus

My reply to a post on Five Doves site

Re: Denis Hart, "Eclipses and the 2008 to 2017 Dilemma http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/sep2008/denish923.htm

> > ...Jesusís return to earth on Yom Kippur 2017. This may not be so, but we need to recognise that the window for the Rapture may be from 2008 to 2010 - the good news is that there is little room to move beyond 2017!!

HOW CAN WE MOVE BEYOND 2016?

To me, it looks like Jesus will make the trip from Shabbatai (the 7th planet, Saturn) to eretz Israel on Shabbat (the 7th day, the Sabbath). I think that day will be Saturday, Nisan 1, 5776 (April 9, 2016). Mt 12:8 says, "THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY". I think Jesus is Lord of Shabbatai and of the Shabbat.

Why Shabbatai? Eze. saw a vision of "God" (Eze.1:1) and "man" (1:26) on a sapphire throne farther out in space then the 4 terrestrial planets. The God/man is Jesus. Sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear. Also, the sapphire is Jesus' birthstone. It is September's stone and means Heaven. I think he was born on Tishri 1 (Sept. 4, BC 5), when the Moon was under the feet of Virgo.

Eze 1:15 says, "Now as I beheld the living creatures (lit., lively things), behold one wheel (orbit) upon the EARTH by the living creatures, with his four faces (facing the 4 cardinal directions as it circles the Sun).

Eze 1:26-28 says of Saturn, "above the firmament (espanse of space) that was over their heads (farther out is space than the 4 terrestrial planets orbiting in concentric circles) was the likeness of a throne, as (symbolic language) the appearance of a SAPPHIRE stone: and upon the likeness (symbolic language) of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Jesus) above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber (Saturn is pale yellow and amber), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness (i.e., Saturn's rings) round about (sabiyb, circling). As the appearance of the bow (qesheth, rainbow) that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about (i.e., Saturn's rings are made of ice crystals, like the rainbow). This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD." Heaven has a halo.

Ex 24:10 says, "And they saw the God of Israel (the LORD of hosts, the Redeemer [i.e., the preincarnate Christ]; Isa.44:6): and THERE WAS UNDER HIS FEET AS IT WERE A PAVED WORK OF A SAPPHIRE STONE, AND AS IT WERE (i.e., as if it were) THE BODY OF HEAVEN (i.e., the heavenly body)". The sapphire is the symbol of Heaven, and the word means Heaven. This is carried through in Eze. 28.

Eze 28:13,14 says of Satan, "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering (surroundings), the sardius (1. Mercury), topaz (2. Venus), and the diamond (3. Earth), the beryl (4. Mars), the onyx (5. Rahab, Satan's original planet, now our Asteroid Belt), and the jasper (6. Jupiter), the SAPPHIRE (7. SATURN), the emerald (8. Uranus), and the carbuncle (9. Neptune), and gold (10. Pluto): the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth (sakak. stops the approach, guards the way to Heaven; Gen. 3:24); and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst (on Rahab) of the stones of fire" (i.e., the planets).

According to Josephus, the lampstand represented the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn (Ant. III. VI. 7). It is easy to see that Saturn is the third heaven from Earth.

In II Cor. 12:2-4, Paul said, "I knew a man in Christ (Paul himself, but he didn't want to boast) above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to THE THIRD HEAVEN (Mars, Jupiter and Saturn). And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up (harpazo, i.e., raptured) into paradise".

Why 2016 instead of 2017? There will be 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath (Eze 38:18-20) and the Second Advent. Eze. 39:12,13 says, "SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD."

God's Wrath will hit on the Feast of Trumpets (Joel 1:15; 2:1-3). For there to be 7 months between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1, the first day of the Regnal Year (when all Israelite kings were inaugurated), the final year has to be a Jewish Leap Year with the 13th month. The Jewish 5776 is a Leap Year; 5777 is not.

Rev 19:13 shows that at the Second Advent, Jesus will be "clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and HIS NAME IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD."

Eze 29:17,21 says, "in the first month, in the first day of the month (Nisan 1), THE WORD OF THE LORD (i.e., Jesus) CAME UNTO ME...
In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel (Jesus) TO BUD FORTH". Nisan 1 fits Hosea 6:3. It says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN UNTO THE EARTH." The former rain comes Tishri 1. The latter rain comes Nisan 1. Jesus was born on Tishri 1 and will return on Nisan 1.

Jer 5:24 says, "Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in HIS SEASON: he reserveth unto US the appointed weeks (shabua, sevens) of the harvest" (i.e., Pentecost). The Holy Spirit came to indwell believers on Pentecost.

Another week could refer to the 70th Week of Daniel 9, because it looks like the Pre-Trib Rapture might be on the Feast of Trumpets in 2008 (Tishri 1, 5769) and the Pre-Wrath Rapture exactly SEVEN YEARS LATER, on the Feast of Trumpets in 2015 (Tishri 1, 5776).

Tishri 1, 5769 is Sept. 30, 2008 on the Jewish Calendar. However, Tishri 1 is actually when the Moon is under the feet of Virgo (Rev. 12:1f). That will happen Oct. 2nd. I'll be watching for the Rapture from Sept. 30 through Oct 2.

ON SEPT 13, 2015, THERE WILL BE A PARTIAL SOLAR ECLIPSE AT 6:55 PM. SINCE IT WILL BE AFTER 6 PM, IT WILL ACTUALLY BE ON THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS THAT WILL BE TISHRI 1, 5776 (SEPT 14, 2015), WHEN I EXPECT THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE EARLY ON THE DAY OF GOD'S WRATH.

De 11:14 says, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain and the latter rain". Jesus' due seasons are Tishri 1 and Nisan 1. Seven months after Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept 14, 2015), the Day of God's Wrath, is Nisan 1, 5776 (April 9, 2016), when I think the Second Advent will take place.

April 9 is the anniversary of Jesus' Resurrection on April 9, 30 AD. The Julian date of His resurrection turns out to be a sign of His Second Coming.

For these reasons, I think the outside limit is the Jewish 5776, our 2015/2016. Seven years before 5776 is 5769. The upcoming Tishri 1, 5769 will be Sept. 30, 2008 on the Jewish Calendar. According to when the Moon is under Virgo's feet, the true Tishri 1 will be Oct. 2, 2008. That may be the day of our Rapture.

According to Rev. 2:10, we can have tribulation 10 days before the Rapture. Noah knew 7 days ahead of time. From this vantage point, it looks like the financial melt-down could be a sign of the coming Rapture. Stay ready and keep watching the news. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: no need for further repentance?

Amen to Your Comments in Pro and Con 1434

Thank you so much for defending the faith from his twisted e-mails. I face these miss led Christians all the time. Woe to those teachers who preach such non sense. That person sounds like a student of Bob George take on sin. Your young writer needs to study out the 7 Epistles of Christ from Revelation, Chapter two and three. Unforgiveness and unforgiviened sin has very serious consequences in the Pre-trib Rapture, eh? Doesn't Salvation have power over sin anyway? Apparently not to some students as well as a need to repent when we do sin. That person has only heard that which he has decided he wants to hear. What a shame.

My reply

Thank you....Agape

Incoming e-mail

Re: 9/11/2001 Anniversary Special Signals & Signs--An Earthquake Cluster of Wednesday September 9, 2008 Elul 10, 5768

If the largest explosion ever recorded by humankind wasn't profound enough to grab your complete attention, the cluster of four major earthquakes surrounding the midnight hour of 09/10 to 09/11should. As if the seventh anniversary of the September 11th terror attacks in NY NY were not memorable enough?

It's very unique that we just had a series of four 6+ earthquakes that occured within a tight one hour period clustered around midnight. Please consider that these quakes happened in diverse locations spread equal distant from one another point around the planet. We know that the new Jewish day of Elul 10, 5768 began at 6PM and covered the next 24 hours. Only a typical Jewish day contains the period of earthquakes surrounding one hour before Midnight 09/10/08 and one hour after 09/11/08. Midnight was perfectly bracketed by two quakes before and two after. This performance literally rung every church bell across the planet Earth.

What really woke me up was the atypical pattern of these quakes. They complete an almost perfect 1/4 presentation that divides the planet into four equal quadrants. I'm not a geographer but, imagine the Earth as an orange split into four perfect sections of equal size. One located in Iran then another 3000 miles to the east in Indonesia then a pair spaced 3000 miles apart deep in both the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans. This cluster of quakes makes it clear that they were purposely sent to us to grab our attention.

Those who are watching and waiting upon the Lord Jesus and the soon coming Rapture of His bride are no strangers to God's series of terrible and magnificent celestial displays of omnipotence. These quakes are not random crust-mantle events, because they are atypical in both location, time and strength. We expect Indonesian quakes & also frequent Iranian quakes, but we don't typically see quakes almost simultaneously in both the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. If we look at the Earth from the North Pole and draw lines through these locations directly to the South Pole, these quakes perfectly quadra-sect the planet!

Completed during the 10th day of Elul 5768 these quakes announce that the Age of the Gentile Church has come to an end. Now, we have entered into the final week of years remaining upon the Jewish calender. The Age of the Jews has begun once more!

Praise the Lord, our family is soon to be restored and complete when all of Israel comes home to worship their King, our King the Lord Jesus the Messiah! His great promises will soon grant eternity to all of His faithful children. Agape and Amen!

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_big.php

With the enormity of the Anniversary of the terrorist attacks of 09/11/2001foremost in our minds, do you know if March 19th 2008, or Elul 10th 5768 are anything important or special dates in world, church or military history? Is my calculations placing the Hebrew date of the quakes on Elul 10th correct? Anything special or significant to any other event in current events, Israeli, Judian, biblical, or church history? Something special with regard to Muslim feasts or Mohamadean holidays or theology? Help me figure out whatever else the Lord is pointing to now. Agape and Amen

My reply

Thanks. These earthquakes do seem like signs. Agape

His reply

What a wonderful time to be alive! Of all the souls that have gone before us Approx. 6 Billion people that have lived and passed into the spirit world. We have the grace to be witnesses to the final act in His-story. The revalation of God's great good plan. Awesome ride Sister!

My reply You bet. Our son David dreamed that he, Ed and I went up from our front yard. He said that we were traveling fast, but there was no sensation of wind rush or cold. According to Psa. 40:1-3, some people will see the Rapture happen, fear, and trust in the Lord. We have already seen pictures of the Earth from space, so there will be no need to look back. We can be watching for the Lord. We will meet him in the clouds.

Oh, yes, Sept. 11, 1999 was Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: another piece of the puzzle

I have just been 'checking' up on the gender neutral 'man child' in Rev:12. I looked in my Strongs and after reading the main reference I went to the root it described and this is where it got interesting!

The root of the word arsen is airo.

The word airo means the following. (copied from the blue letter bible)
(http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G142&t=KJV&sf=4) 1) to raise up, elevate, lift up
a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones
b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off
a) to move from its place
b) to take off or away what is attached to anything
c) to remove
d) to carry off, carry away with one
e) to appropriate what is taken
f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
g) to take and apply to any use
h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
i) cause to cease

Got me pretty excited anyway - apologies if you've already got to this! It goes without saying that we're right there with you and are grateful for your continued study and sharing.

My reply

> > The root of the word arsen is airo.

Thanks. What a surprise since arsen is translated "man". You have listed Thayer's definition for airo. I looked arsen and airo up in Strong's. Now I see the connection between man and lifting.

G730 arsen: Probably from G142; male (as stronger for lifting): - male, man.
G142 airo: A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

The word "child" appears twice in English, but the Greek word is different. Why?

Rev 12:5 AndG2532 she brought forthG5088 a manG730 child,G5207 whoG3739 wasG3195 to ruleG4165 allG3956 nationsG1484 withG1722 a rodG4464 of iron:G4603 andG2532 herG848 childG5043 was caught upG726 untoG4314 God,G2316 andG2532 to hisG848 throne.G2362

child G5207 is uihos, Apparently a primary word; a "son" (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son.

Child G5043 is teknon, a child (as produced): - child, daughter, son.

Figurative kinship is interesting since I think the man child represents the whole Body of Christ. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Need help with 2 questions PLEASE

I need help. I have been talking with this elderly gentleman at the church I attend, and our topic was on the Two Wittnesses... Can you please help me? He has told me they were Enoch and Elijiah because "They BOTH did not die". I told him I believed Moses and Elijiah was the two... He is so stubborn, he wouldn't even listen to my side of the story... I even mentioned the Transfiguration when both were standing there and God came down in a cloud.. He said Moses was in Paradise, then I said... Why would God take him out of paradise and place him on the mountian and then put him back into paradise and then wait until Jesus died and brought back the Keys of hell... Then all the believers go to Heaven. Personally I believe that when Moses died, God took him to heaven alive BODY and Spirit, just like Enoch & Elijiah..

His other argument was he believed the two wittnesses will be raptured up at the end of the Tribulation.. I told him they would start their wittnessing at the beginning of the Trib and be killed in the middle of the Tribulation and then be raptured up 3 1/2 days later... He said NO... He is getting his information from the Dates?? bible and the Jimmy Swaggard bible which he mentioned are closest to what is most correct... Wierd..

Can you help me straighten him out with scripture? Not to long, but short and right to the point... He might not even read it if it's too much info...

I have been reading your Pro & Cons sence May 1998 on number 30 to start with.

Have a Blessed day and I will see you soon in Heaven, maybe this October 1st..

After the Rapture, Whats Next, Step by Step

My church webpage I created also.. http://www.wg-wc.com my site is located when clicking on the gold metal on the bottom left..

My reply

I think the two witnesses prophesy during the first half of the Tribulation. Only one tenth of Jerusalem falls at Mid-Trib. In the worldwide earthquake at the end of the shortened Great Tribulation, the last half of the 7-year Tribulation, the dead will lay around the world. Every wall will fall. Also, in the middle, only two men are caught up to Heaven. At the end, Rev. 7:9 tells us that a great multitude that no man can number will be caught up.

Rev 7:14 shows that all the Tribulation saints come out of the Great Tribulation, which is the last half of the Tribulation. It says, "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Concerning 3.5 days past the middle of the Tribulation, Rev 11:12,13 says, "And they (the two witnesses) heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Concerning the day of God's Wrath at the end of the Tribulation, Eze. 38:18-20 says, "it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY SHALL COME UP IN MY FACE. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel (i.e., because the mountain-sized asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will hit the Mediterranean Sea); So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and ALL THE MEN THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, SHALL SHAKE at my presence (paniym, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man; Mt. 24:30), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and EVERY WALL SHALL FALL to the ground."

Rev. 16:17-19 tells us about the Day of God's Wrath too. It says, "the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE MEN WERE UPON THE EARTH, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And THE GREAT CITY (Jerusalem) WAS DIVIDED INTO THREE PARTS, AND THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL: AND GREAT BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of HIS WRATH."

Who are the two witnesses?

Rev 11:4 says, "These are the TWO OLIVE TREES, and the two CANDLESTICKS (i.e., believers, Rev. 1:20) STANDING BEFORE THE GOD OF THE EARTH."

Zech 4:11-14 says, "What are these TWO OLIVE TREES upon the right side of the CANDLESTICK and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil (symbol of the Holy Spirit) out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, THESE ARE THE TWO ANOINTED ONES, THAT STAND BY THE LORD OF THE WHOLE EARTH."

Two believers stood by Jesus Christ, the Lord of the whole earth, at the Transfiguration.

Mt 17:1-3 says, "after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was TRANSFIGURED before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, THERE APPEARED UNTO THEM MOSES AND ELIAS talking with him."

Mark 9:2-4 says, "after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was TRANSFIGURED before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. And THERE APPEARED UNTO THEM ELIAS WITH MOSES: and they were talking with Jesus."

Therefore, I see no way around it. To me, Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses. Agape

His reply

Great to hear from you, it's been a very long time sence I last emailed you prior to the last one a week or so ago. I thank you for you Great wisdom and understanding of the Bible. I also believe that the two witnesses will prophesy during the FIRST HALF of the Tribulation... But after reading the first part of Revelation Chapter 11, does it not say that the two witnesses will be given power for 3 1/2 years prior to the Gentiles at the Temple Mount 42 months... Does this STARTING time seem to begin at the MID of the Trib?? We are way back in chapter 11, the Rapture happened in chapter 4... As I mentioned earlier in my first message, the elderly man TRULY Believes that the Rapture will happen SEVEN years before the 2 witnesses start their prophesy, and then the later part of chapter 11 verse 3.

Where are there any scripture showing that the witnesses start AT THE BEGINNING of the Tribulation... This will help me get back on track...Thank you so much.

My reply

> > Where are there any scripture showing that the witnesses start AT THE BEGINNING of the Tribulation.

You mean besides the earthquake that killed only 7000 in the middle of the Tribulation? That was after the 2 witnesses prophesied during the first half of the Tribulation. After the last half of the Tribulation, the worldwide earthquake kills many more people. The dead shall lay around the Earth.

These things happen Mid-Trib

Rev 12:12-14 says, "THE DEVIL (SATAN) IS COME DOWN UNTO YOU, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time (i.e., the shortened last half of the Tribulation). And when the dragon (DEVIL, SATAN) saw that he was CAST INTO THE EARTH (i.e., INTO THE BOTTOMLESS PIT), he persecuted the woman (Israel) which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place (i.e., Petra), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (i.e., the last 3.5 years of the Tribulation), from the face of the serpent" (i.e., SATAN)."

Rev 17:8 says, "The beast (SATAN) that thou sawest was (i.e., in Judas Iscariot), and is not (i.e., in man now); and SHALL ASCEND OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT, AND GO INTO PERDITION (i.e., inter into the False Prophet, the son of perdition, Mid-Trib): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast (Satan) that was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man now), and yet is" (exists).

Rev 11:7 And when they (THE TWO WITNESSES) shall have finished their testimony (MID-TRIB), the beast (SATAN) THAT ASCENDETH OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT (MID-TRIB) shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." If the two witnesses are killed Mid-Trib, and they prophesy 1260 days before that, they start prophesying at the beginning of the Tribulation. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: "Bruce Warner : The Jubilee Year" - A GENERATION IS 48.33 YEARS

You wrote in your letter to Five Doves (6 Sep 2008) RE: "Bruce Warner: The Jubilee Year" the following:
"June 5, 1967, when Israel grew leaves in the Six-Day War, plus 48.33 years is 2015 plus 4 months. I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place on Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015). The 4 months could be June, July, August and September (or Iyar, Tamuz, Av and Elul). Is there anything else I am missing? "

I think you are right on, but consider this Scripture:

John 4: 35-36: "Do you not say, FOUR MONTHS MORE and then the harvest? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even NOW HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE --

Maybe we are being told that the Pre-Wrath Rapture will take place 4 MONTHS PRIOR TO Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015). That would be just about Pentecost 2015, would it not? What do you think? Come Lord Jesus!

My reply

I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture and Day of God's Wrath have to be on the Feast of Trumpets, See Joel 1:15; 2:1-3 and Rev. 6:17; 7:14. Agape

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