Pro and Con 144, Uploaded 7-2-98

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The lost guy in Pro/Con 143 who thinks he evolved from the primordial ooze ought to read Michael Behe's book called Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution. Evolution is a LIE and this book proves it. I purposefully capitalized that word if anyone was wondering.

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In 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 3 what does Paul mean by "the falling away"?  when he (the man of sin, the son of perdition) sits as God, in the temple of God, will the bride of christ (the first fruits) still be here on earth, or will she have been already raptured?

  In verses 6 and 7 paul is talking about something or someone who is restraining or holding back, what or who is this, what is he referring to? in verse 9 Paul speaks about signs and lying wonders, what do you think these are, what kind of things can the lawless one do?

  Thankyou so much Marilyn!  you are an inspiration to all of us. God bless you!

My reply

KJV's "day of Christ" should be translated Day of the Lord, and is so translated in other versions. The Day of the Lord is the Millennium.

The falling away is "apostasia," the departing, and is so translated in early Bibles, Tyndale's Translation, Beza's Translation, The Great Bible, the Coverdale Bible, etc. It is the Rapture. It is a defection from a state, as people separate in a divorce. We are leaving, departing.

We are salt. Salt retards the growth of leaven in breadmaking. The Holy Spirit in us retards the growth of wickedness and the Holy Spirit restrains the appearance of the wicked one. When we are gone, Raptured, there will be too little salt to retard the growth of leaven. If it were bread, the loaf would rise too much.

It seems that the Holy Spirit is restraining the growth of evil for our sakes. When we are caught up, he will remove the restraint. "And then shall that Wicked by revealed."

As for signs and lying wonders that he will do, see Rev. 13:13-15.

Hang in there, "for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul" (Deuteronomy 13:3). Such was the case with the Apostle Peter. "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren" (Luke 22:31-32).

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Marvelous! Wonderful! Thank you for pointing us to the article "JUDAS: WHEN DID HE DIE?" I have just finished reading the analysis and have found it to be a facinating piece of research.

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MARILYN--HERE IS SOME MORE INFOR. ON THE FAST OF TAMMUZ 17: SINCE IT FALLS ON SAT. JULY 11TH IT IS DELAYED UNTIL SUNDAY JULY 12TH. FASTS THAT OCCUR ON FRIDAY OR SAT. ARE GENERALLY DELAYED UNTIL SUNDAY. THE MISHNA RECORDS 5 EVENTS THAT OCCURRED ON THIS DATE WHICH CAUSED IT TO BECOME A FAST DAY:1. Moses broke the tablets of stone - When Moses came down from the mountain and saw the Israelites dancing around the Golden Calf, in his anger, he cast down the tablets of stone and smashed them. According to Jewish tradition, the letters that had been engraved on the stones, floated up and returned to G-d. 2.Daily sacrifices ceased in the Temple - This happened at the time of the first Temple. Every morning, a Korban Tamid, a regular daily sacrifice was offered on behalf of the entire Jewish People. Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, beseiged Jerusalem for three years and eventually the Temple authorities ran out of sheep to sacrifice. This was on 17th Tammuz. 3.A breach in walls of the Temple - According to the Jerusalem Talmud, breaches were made in the walls of each Temple on 17th Tammuz. 4.Apostomos burnt the Torah - A Greek general called Apostomus burnt Torah scrolls. We do not know exactly who he was, or even when he lived, but his name remains associated with this heinous crime. Clearly his intention was to try to make the Jews forget the Torah and to abandon their faith. 5.Apostomos set up an idol in the Temple - This evil deed is also ascribed to him. This probably took place during the time the Greeks were in control of the Holy Land during the Second Commonwealth.


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All Caps
To the person who writes lengthy messages in all caps: It is difficult to read, as our eyes are not conditioned for it. It's like the words are screaming at us. I suggest switching to normal capitalization. Thanks.

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Please consider the possibility that Jesus's birthday was on the first day of the Feast of Sukkot(Tabernacles). This could explain the eighth day after a seven day feast. Jesus was circumcised (representing the cutting off of sin), on the eighth day. This was a requirement for all Jewish children. The eigth day of the Feast of Sukkot, appears to be a reminder of the future, when sin will once and for all be removed from the earth. God is indeed faithful to provide us with examples, to remind us of His promises.

My reply

Thanks for your input, but just because Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day is not enough reason for me to think he was born on the Feast of Tabernacles. Man's test is roughly 7000 years. Counting 1000-year days, the eighth day would be after the millennial Day of the Lord. Then, after another short time of testing, when Satan will be released and will gather another army to try to fight Christ, sin will be removed from the Earth. Fire will come down and destroy the army before the battle is fought, and Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

The LORD's "going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth" (Hosea. 6:3).

The LORD promised in De. 11:14, "I will give you the rain of your land (Israel) in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain and the latter rain."

These two rains are such definite times in Israel that they are listed on their calendars that list feasts and times of harvest. The former rain begins on Tishri 1, the first day of the Civil Calendar. The latter rain begins on Nisan 1, the first day of the Sacred Calendar.

Joel 2:23 says, "he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month."

The Second Advent will be on Nisan 1, which is not only the first day of the Sacred Calendar, but the first day of the Jewish Regnal Calendar. All Israelite kings officially took office that day. The date is established in Ezek. 29:17, "first month, in the first day of the month." We know from Ezek. 45:18,21 that this is Nisan 1. Now look at Ezek. 29:21: "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Word, the Logos) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Psa. 132:11-18 ties in: "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David...Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne....For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation....There will I make the horn (king) of David to bud...upon himself shall his crown flourish."

If the Second Advent is on the beginning of the latter rain, I think the First Advent was on the beginning of the former rain. It is the Feast of Trumpets, properly announcing the arrival of the King with trumpets.

Not only was he announced with trumpets at his birth, Jesus' Coronation Day will also be on the Feast of Trumpets.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kindoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15).

For some reason, the part of your email address that precedes @ is missing. I'll guess, but if it does not go through, I hope you will find my answer on the Pro and Cons.

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10 Av (August 2)? (Jim Bramlett)
Last night I spoke on the telephone with nearby Jim Harman of Prophecy Countdown ministries. I had just received his latest excellent newsletter in which he gives some of the reasons why 10 Av (August 2) this year may be the rapture. I had forgotten, but he reminded me that in his 1989 book, John Zachary of Harvard House also suggested the date might be 10 Av this year. As you recall, 10 Av (or some sources say 9 Av) is a day of historical tragedy for the Jews. The removal of the true Church (Israel's only friend on Earth) and "the restrainer," and the beginning of "the time of Jacob's trouble," will be the greatest tragedy in all of Israel's history....

After hanging up, I remembered another current window that embraces the 10 Av date and will probably remain open until September 20, 1998 (Rosh Hashanah); that is, the Jerusalem rabbi's "at least 30--less than 50" age window for the beginning of Israel's end-time priestly role and the removal of the Church. The rabbi thought the window would expire on May 14, 1998. He was obviously not correct in the way he calculated it, but if Israel is "less than 50" until the end of the civil year in which she became age 50, as I suspect, the window is still open.

By his calculations using astronomy and other factors, John Zachary also says that the tribulation may begin August 28, 1998. It is fascinating that this date and window are compatible with other revelations such as Dimitru Duduman's.

It surely looks as though the window between now and including September 20, 1998 is RED HOT with possibilities. Let us keep watching with faithfulness and diligence, praying always, "that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36).

Maranatha, Jim

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On the matter of the miraculous blood, I think there's a quick clarification to be made. Ron Wyatt says that the blood tested had 24 chromosomes. This is an unusual finding because normal people have 46 chromosomes in each cell of their bodies. They receive 23 chromosomes from each parent. A normal male would 46 chromosomes, including one X chromosome and one Y chromosome.

If the finding is true, then 23 chromosomes, including one X chromosome, would have come from Mary. The single Y chromosome, which makes one male, would be divine in origin. As best I know (and I am not a doctor or medical professional, this is just college biology here) there is no known way for this to occur in nature.

I'm highly skeptical of this story. I would like it to be true, but until we have verification from a neutral source, I'm treating it as an interesting possibility, but won't treat it as established until we hear it from two or three witnesses mouths :)

Keep on keeping on...

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I just read your book Revelations 2000 and found it fascinating and jolting. I have never heard the thought that Christians that are saved by the finished work of Christ might somehow be sent through the tribulation. The two Raptures is a new idea to me. I know the Bible talks about the 144,000 jewish believers sealed during the Tribulation and I assumed many would be martyred. How does this reconcile with our salvation being a gift of God which we can not earn lest we boast? I think you make a pretty heavy duty theological statement. You are not saying that our salvation is at risk. You say that we may be required to be chastened by the Tribulation. I have never heard that interpretation. It also seems to fly in the face of God forgiving our sins- past, present, and future. Help me with this. Thanks

My reply

...All sins that are brought under the blood of Christ are forgiven, past, present, future. All believers will end up in Heaven and have eternal life. However, some will earn other rewards; others will not. We can't work for Salvation, but we can work for rewards.

Salvation and being "accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36) are two different things. In Salvation, it is "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn. 3:16). Being worthy does not enter into Salvation. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. None are worthy. It is by grace, not works (Eph. 2:8-10). At the moment of Salvation, all sins committed up to that time are wiped off the books. Peter called these "old sins" (II Pet. 1:9). Any sins committed after that must be confessed to God to bring them under the blood of Christ (covered in I John 1:9). This seems to be something the Tribulation saints have to do, for Rev. 7:14,15 shows that by the time they get to Heaven, they "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God." Jude 23 speaks of "the garment spotted by the flesh." Jesus told Peter that if he did not wash Peter's feet, Peter had no part with Him.

Peter learned his lesson well. In II Peter 1:4-11, he gave us a list of things we should add to our faith to make our "calling and election sure." Here is his list, "that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature": virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly KINDNESS, charity (agape love). "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind (like the Laodiceans), and cannot see afar off (Heaven at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his OLD sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren (believers), give diligence to make your CALLING and ELECTION sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is written as if the Rapture is at hand. It is "at hand" in 1:3 and 22:10. Jesus signs off with "I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5). John was told, "Write the things which thou hast seen (things before the Rapture), and the things which are (when the Rapture is at hand), and the things which shall be hereafter (after the Rapture)" (Rev. 1:19). The Pre-Trib Rapture takes place in 4:1, then John is told what comes "hereafter."

In Rev. 17:14, we see that "they that ARE (at the time of the Rapture) with him (Christ) are CALLED, and CHOSEN, and FAITHFUL." This is at a time when the ten kings "have received no kingdom as yet" (17:12). They are crowned as the Tribulation begins (Rev. 13:1), so the called, chosen, and faithful are with the Lord before the Tribulation begins.

In his messages to the churches (i.e., believers), Jesus had no words against the Philadelphians before whom he set the open door. He did have words against the Laodiceans who face the closed door. He warned them, "I counsel thee to buy of me gold (symbol of deity) tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent" (3:18,19). The Laodiceans have to be in Christ to be spewed out of his mouth at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture.

This should not seem so strange. Heb. 12:5-8 says, "My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth (he loves the Laodiceans) he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons."

The Tribulation saints get their act together and are found in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. Between these two accounts, the Pre-Trib Rapture in 4:1 and the Pre-Wrath Rapture indicated in 7:14, we find chapter 6. It starts with the beginning of the Tribulation and ends with the Day of God's Wrath is come. Then the wrath is poured out beginning with chapter 8. The Tribulation saints are caught up (7:14) between the breaking of the sixth seal (6:12) and the seventh seal (8:1).

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Hello and God Bless You!
I have a copy of your 'The End of the Age' book and have found some interesting parallels to the names of the years in Hebrew and the divisions of Time.

On Plate 2 you have a chart showing the Divisions of Time in that you list BC 3 to AD 2007 as being 2000 years + 9 which is listed in your book as the Age of the Church. I think I have found an interesting match with the Hebrew names of the years. I need to first acknowledge an audio tape by J.R. Church and Gary Stearman of Prophecy in The News entitled 5758 (1998): The Jewish "Year of Rest".

We know that in Hebrew, the numbers are letters and the letters can be treated as numbers. Due to this, some have correctly observed that this year 5758 on the Hebrew calendar (1997/1998) is composed of the letters Tov, Shin, Nun and Chet which means 'Season of Noah' or 'Time of Noah'. Noah means rest so it could equally be translated 'Season of Rest'. This is meaningful since Noah was a prophetic marker for the flood and since our Lord tells us that the end times are as the 'days of Noah'. Those caught up in the rapture will indeed enter His Rest.

Now not all years have meanings. For example, the year 5757 (1996/1997) has no recognizable meaning in Hebrew. In fact we are close to the end of the Hebrew alphabet and there are only two years left in the alphabet that have meanings - 5765 (2004/2005) Tov, Shin, Samech and Hey and 5770 (2009/2010) Tov Shin Ayin.

5765 is the Hebrew verb "TO PLUNDER". This is interesting since it matches our year 2004/2005 which is the midpoint of the tribulation.

5770 (2009/2010) is the Hebrew word for NINE and also happens to be the final word in the Hebrew Dictionary. There are absolutely no more date/year translations after this word. It is in essence the FINAL WORD. The meaning of NINE (9) is a word of judgement, finality and speaks of the sieges of Jerusalem (which occurred on the 9th of Av).

I thought that this is interesting due to the 2000 years plus the 9. Perhaps you can comment?

See you in glory! Maranatha!

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I recently saw a page about evidence against your theory, about the rapture... Check this out..:

Dose he have a point? Your the most logical person to ask that with all your time in bible study.

My reply

He doesn't think there is a Pre-Trib Rapture. He said,
"There are a number of passages in the Bible that describe the believer's resurrection, but only two CLEARLY tell us when this resurrection will occur in relation to other predicted events.  The first one is 1 Cor. 15:51-52-- "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET.  For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."  A logical place to look for where this "last trumpet" is talked about is in the last book of the Bible.  We find the sounding of the "last trumpet" in that book in Revelation 11:15-- "Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!""  This verse in the chronology of events is obviously very near the END of the Tribulation.

"There is actually a LATER trumpet blown according to end times chronology, but this fact is found written in another book, Matt 24:29-31-- "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and THEN all the tribes of the earth will mourn, AND they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  AND He will send His angels WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."   The resurrection event  mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:51-52 MUST therefore occur right AFTER the end of the Tribulation OR LATER in light of these passages!  Even if the Revelation 11:15 passage signified another resurrection than the Matthew 24/1st Corinthians 15 resurrection, neither could occur until most of the Tribulation has past time-wise, thus there is still no pre-tribulational "rapture.""

I think there is a Pre-Trib Rapture. The trump sounded to call the saints up is "the trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16). The seven trumpet judgments are sounded by angels (Rev. 8). At the seventh trumpet judgment, the saints are already present in Heaven and are getting their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Rev. 11:18).

In Numbers 10:2-4, Moses was told to make "two trumpets" and "use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both), all (as in I Cor. 15:51) the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, And if thy blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (i.e., the elders of Rev. 4), shall gather themselves unto thee."

I think I Thess. 4:13-18 refers to the first trump, the first Rapture, and that I Cor. 15:52 refers to the last trump, the last Rapture. The gathering of Mt. 24:31 and Mk. 13:27 is the last trump, the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

From Mt. 24:31 we see that there is a gathering of the saints "with a great sound of a trumpet. The similar passage in Mark 13:24-27 says, "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light (at the breaking of the sixth seal, Rev. 6:12), And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man (this is the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30) coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then (before the seventh seal is broken that brings forth the seven trumpet judgments) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Tribulation saints seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14) to the uttermost part of heaven (those who had already been taken to Heaven prior to that time)." Here, you can see that the Tribulation saints are raptured. They do not all die, as some think.

The Pre-Trib Rapture is as the days of Noah. No fire falls that day, and his wife goes upward too. All on the Ark were married, suggesting that this group is the Bride of Christ. Marriage is also listed in Mt. 24:38 and Luke 17:27.

The Pre-Wrath Rapture is as the days of Lot, and his wife does not make it. No marriage is mentioned in Luke 17:28. Fire and brimstone fall that same day, after the Tribulation saints are caught up to Heaven.

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There's a thought I always have everytime I read the Parable of the Ten Virgins. I wanted to share it with you and ask your opinion.

Could it be that the oil, that the wise virgins took along with their lamps in jars, are people that they shared the Word with and therefore they were also filled with the Holy Spirit?

The parable of the Talents also seems to demonstrate to me the sharing of the Word (or causing another person to be filled with the Holy Spirit). The one that buried his talent, received nothing. Those whose talent grew, received more. Therefore if God gives us a little measure of the Holy Spirit and we share it we will recieve more.

Is it possible that because Matt 28:29 says, "Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him." that the ones who never shared what they had will have it taken from them--at the time of the rapture--therefore, the world would be entirely without the restraining force (Holy Spirit) after the rapture for at least minutes. I would still think it would be possible to receive the gift again and be saved--But for just a short time it would be completely taken out of the way of evil.

I believe that there is a verse that called our earthly bodies, Earthen Vessels (jars for the Holy Spirit--extra oil?).

I apprieciate you listening. Thank you once again for all your work. I still never miss a day without reading your page. With Love

My reply

Sorry to take so long to answer. I am trying hard to catch up. Have less than 400 emails in my Inbox now. My computer is not working so slowly. It was laboring without enough memory to work easily, wouldn't sort my mail right, left out letters if I typed at a normal pace, etc.

It still seems to me that the oil represents the Holy Spirit. De. 32:13,15 says, "and he made him to suck honey (symbol of the scriptures) out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock...then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation" (which is Christ). Christ gives us the Holy Spirit. The priests were annointed with oil. We are believer priests.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 7-2-98