Pro and Con 1454

Posted 12-9-08

My comment

How thoughtful of the Lord to mark her face so that it is hard to tell whether she has her eyes open or shut.

Israel's Coat of Arms

Zech. 4:11-14 says, "Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." Moses and Elijah stood by the Lord of the whole earth at Jesus' transfiguration. They are the two witnesses of Rev. 11.

Incoming mail, Re: The Shield of Israel, by J.R. Church

In 162 BC, Antiochus IV Epiphanes polluted the Temple altar by sacrificing a pig on it. The Maccabees defeated the army of Antiochus, cleansed the Temple and rededicated it on Kislev 24, in 165 BC, "three years to the day after its desecration--the Temple was cleansed and dedicated."

I was glad to get this information. I didn't remember the shield, and I didn't realize that the Maccabees cleansed and rededicated the Temple exactly 3 years to the day after it was polluted. Above is the picture of the shield of Israel I found on Wikipedia. It appears on official documents and currency in Israel.

J.R. Church said that the Menorah "is flanked on each side by a stylized olive branch. Across the base of the shield, in Hebrew, is the word 'Israel.' The two olive branches are rooted in this word."

That's interesting. Both Moses and Elijah are rooted in Israel, and both stood by the Lord of the whole earth at the Transfiguration. Enoch was a Gentile, so he won't be one of the two witnesses of Rev. 11.

Kislev 24, now the Eve of Hanukkah, was Jesus' Conception Day in 6 BC. He was born on the Feast of Trumpets in 5 BC. I think Conception Day, Dec. 21, 2008, will be our Rapture day.

The Menorah used at Hanukkah has 9 branches, the middle one is called the servant candle. It is used to light the other 8 candles. Hanukkah lasts 8 days, because the oil that was only enough to last one day miraculously lasted 8 days. That might be because 8 means new beginning. It was a new beginning in those days, and it will be a new beginning for us in our days.

"Each olive branch on the shield of Israel," wrote J R Church, "is designed with 12 leaves and 12 olives. They represent the twelve tribes of Israel. Atop each branch shines the flame of the Holy Spirit. Added to the seven lamps, they make a Hanukkah menorah."

Incoming e-mail, Re: Natural Cycles and The Rapture

Several here (i.e., on Five Doves site), including Marilyn Agee are pointing toward December 21, 2008 as a strong possible Rapture date. Their reasoning is strong and well grounded in scripture. I applaud them on their hard work and scholarly conclusions. It is interesting that their date is the Eve or first night of Hanukah or the Jewish Festival of Lights. It may also be the actual day that Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb by the Holy Spirit.

I would also like to add or point out that this day is the “Winter Solstice.” This is important because it is the shortest day of the year for us in the Northern Hemisphere where Israel is and the Jews happened to be at the time of His first coming. Jesus is the Truth, the way and the “Light.” Jesus is the Light that the Father sent into the world. He sent Him to us when the Sun was giving its least amount of light and warmth. I think it no coincidence that Jesus is the Son of God and He is The Light and He came to us on the darkest day. He may also come for His bride on the Darkest day, the day He was conceived. The day that Jesus came the first time was not only the physically darkest day of the year in Israel, but it was a dark time for Israel, as Israel was an occupied nation at the time. This, is a dark time for us Christians, too. Apostasy and secularism are all around us. We Christians and Jesus Himself are mocked everywhere and all around us. Islam and secularism are growing and our numbers are shrinking.

Many people point to the Christmas holiday period as a depressing period where the suicide rate and depression and sadness rises among people around the world. It has nothing to do with Christmas. It has everything to do with the Winter Solstice and the lack of light from the Sun. People are generally affected in a negative way by the lack of Sunlight. Even I get a little blue in the second or third week of December....It is no wonder that Jesus, “The Light” came into the world on that day. Might this be the day that He comes for His bride?

Marilyn and others have done a great job of linking this day scripturally to the rapture. I can add little to what they have already written. I just wanted to point out some of the “natural” that the Father created in this world for us that has an effect on us and how it might add to their study.

I hope this is of help to you all. Blessings

My reply

Thanks for reminding me that Dec. 21 is the first day of winter. That's when the Sun is at its lowest point in the sky. It appears to be turning around to start ascending. Maybe that is why Mal. 4:2 says, "But UNTO YOU THAT FEAR MY NAME shall the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS arise with healing in HIS wings; and YE SHALL GO FORTH (yatsa, GO OUT, DEPART, ESCAPE, EXIT., i.e., be raptured) and grow up as calves of the stall."

Isa. 18:3-7 says, "All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign (flag) on the mountains (kingdoms, i.e., the UN); and WHEN HE BLOWETH A TRUMPET (i.e., at the first Rapture), hear ye. For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider (see) in my dwelling place (HEAVEN) like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest. For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches (i.e., that don't have fruit). They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall WINTER upon them. IN THAT TIME (WINTER) shall the present be brought unto the LORD of hosts of A PEOPLE scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, TO THE PLACE OF THE NAME OF THE LORD OF HOSTS, THE MOUNT ZION" (i.e., the heavenly one).

John 10:22-30 says, "And it was at Jerusalem THE FEAST OF THE DEDICATION (Hanukkah, meaning rededication, also called the festival of lights, which fits the wise virgins, Kislev 25 begins at 6 PM on Dec. 21), AND IT WAS WINTER (which starts Dec. 21). And JESUS WALKED IN THE TEMPLE (we are the temple of the Holy Spirit) in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM, AND THEY FOLLOW ME: AND I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

Since Hanukkah starts at 6 PM on Dec. 21, that night may be the time of the Rapture. It will be Winter on our calendar and Hanukkah on the Jewish calendar. I think it is important to note that in John 4:35, Jesus said, "Say not ye, There are yet four months (Teveth, Shevat, Adar and Nisan), and then cometh harvest (of barley on the Feast of Firstfruits, Nisan 16)? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest." This only fits Hanukkah. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Rapture on December 21, 2008

I agree that the 'shortened 2300 day tribulation' must begin on 'Pentecost' May 29, 2009 and end on Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015), but I have been thinking that the rapture would happen 10 days prior to Pentecost on 'Ascension Day' May 19, 2009 which is 40 days after 'Resurrection Day'. That would allow for the '40-day Sign of Jonah' as a warning to all 'watching' Christians.

Because the following Scriptures are true, YOU MAY BE CORRECT about the rapture happening on December 21, 2008 - 'Conception Day' - I do feel confident that the 'Bride of Christ' will be in Heaven before Pentecost May 29, 2009!

Luke 12:46
"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of."

Matthew 24:50
"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware."

Matthew 24:42
"THEREFORE KEEP WATCH, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW ON WHAT DAY YOUR LORD WILL COME." Come Lord Jesus!

My reply

> > I have been thinking that the rapture would happen 10 days prior to Pentecost on 'Ascension Day' May 19, 2009 which is 40 days after 'Resurrection Day'. That would allow for the '40-day Sign of Jonah' as a warning to all 'watching' Christians.

In Noah's day, he entered the Ark on Cheshvan 17. It rained 40 days and 40 nights. Toward the end of this period, the Ark floated free of the ground. So the 40 days do apply to Hanukkah. This year, the 40th day would be Christmas Eve. This 40 days seems to limit the lifting off, i.e., the Rapture, to Hanukkah.

Also, in John 4:35, Jesus said, "Say not ye, There are yet four months (Teveth, Shevat, Adar and Nisan), and then cometh harvest (of barley on the Feast of Firstfruits, Nisan 16)? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white ALREADY to harvest." This only fits Hanukkah. Agape

Post on Five Doves site

Eileen (9 Dec 2008)
"TO: Marilyn Agee - Rapture on Jesus' Conception Day"

Great post! How interesting that the Feast of Trumpets started at 6 PM on Sept 5, 1774, 234 years before 2008! (Remember the angel and Vincent Tan’s $2.34?) Another feast day, which is another piece of the puzzle that brings us to a rapture in 2008! Really good research done, Marilyn! Interesting to find out that Jesus was born on the Feast of Trumpets.

I also liked the way you put all the scriptures together for the “first trump” rapture date of Kislev 24 (December 21, 2008). This is another confirmation of a December 21st rapture date that I have seen posted by Ron Reese and other Doves.

Praise the Lord! Hope to see you soon!
Eileen

My reply to a post by Ron Reese on Five Doves site

> > The APOCALYPSE takes place 21 December 2008 - 21 December 2015
> > Events climax on 21 December 2012!
> > Will the world really end on December 21, 2012 when the Mayan-Aztec calendar runs out?
> > Please email me with any opinions

Here is my newly revised timetable.

I think the 2520-day 70th Week of Daniel started on Oct. 21, 2008, the 8th day of Tabernacles. Hopefully, the Pre-Trib Rapture will take place Kislev 24, the Eve of Hanukkah, Dec. 21, 2008. The 2300-day Shortened Tribulation should start May 29, 2009, Pentecost. There are 220 days from Oct. 21, 2008 to May 29, 2009, Pentecost.

Kislev 24, Eve of Hannukah, Dec. 21, 2008, is the Day of Jesus' Conception. Haggai 2:10 says, "In the four and twentieth day of the ninth month (Kislev 24)...came the word of the LORD by Haggai" (i.e., Jesus, the Word; John 1:1-3, comes at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture)."

Haggai 2:10 says, "In the four and twentieth day of the ninth month (Kislev 24; Dec. 21 in 2008)...came THE WORD of the LORD by Haggai" (i.e., Jesus, THE WORD; John 1:1-3, comes at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture)."

Hag 2:15 says, "And now, I pray you, consider from this day (Kislev 24) and upward (maal, exceedingly high, i.e., the Rapture), from before a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the LORD" (i.e., the temple of the Holy Spirit must be gone before the literal Temple in Jerusalem can be built after Moses and Elijah arrive).

Hag 2:18,19 says, "Consider (sum lebab, rehearse, take to heart) now from this day and upward (maal, above, exceedingly high; i.e., the Rapture), from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month (Kislev 24), even FROM THE DAY THAT THE FOUNDATION OF THE LORD'S TEMPLE WAS LAID (i.e., from Jesus' conception day), consider it. Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth (NASA, LIFTED UP, i.e., been raptured): from this day will I bless you."

1Cor 3:11 says, "For other FOUNDATION can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

It sure looks like the first trump Rapture will come on Kislev 24 (Dec. 21, 2008), and the "last trump" Rapture will come on Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015).

2520 days from Oct. 21, 2008, counted by inclusive reckoning because it is a block of time, the Day of God's Wrath will end the 2300-day Shortened Tribulation of Dan. 8:13,14 on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 14, 2015. Thus the 2300 days (counted by inclusive reckoning) should start next Pentecost, May 29, 2009.

As for the end of the Mayan calendar, Satan may have known that by that time, he would be inhabiting the body of the man of sin, the 2nd son of perdition, the False Prophet, during the Great Tribulation, the last half of the Shortened Tribulation.

Hag 2:15 says, "And now, I pray you, consider from this day (Kislev 24) and upward (maal, exceedingly high, i.e., the Rapture), from before a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the LORD" (i.e., the temple of the Holy Spirit must be gone before the literal Temple in Jerusalem can be built after Moses and Elijah arrive at the Rapture).

Hag 2:18,19 says, "Consider (sum lebab, rehearse, take to heart) now from this day and upward (maal, above, exceedingly high; i.e., the Rapture), from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month (Kislev 24), even FROM THE DAY THAT THE FOUNDATION OF THE LORD'S TEMPLE WAS LAID (i.e., from Jesus' conception day), consider it. Is the seed (Jesus; Gen. 3:15) yet in the barn? (i.e., is Mary pregnant) yea (YES), as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth (NASA, LIFTED UP, i.e., been raptured): from this day will I bless you."

1Cor 3:11 says, "For other FOUNDATION can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

It sure looks like the first trump Rapture will come on Kislev 24 (Dec. 21, 2008), and the "last trump" Rapture will come on Tishri 1, 5776 (Sept. 14, 2015). From and including: Friday, May 29, 2009 (Pentecost), to and including: Friday, December 21, 2012, it is 1303 days from the start date to the end date, end date included, or 3 years, 6 months, 23 days including the end date. That doesn't line up with any block of days I have found in Scripture.

I used to think that there were 1260 days for the first half of the Tribulation and 1040 days for the shortened last half. Then, I thought Pastor Riley was correct, that there were 220 days, then 1040 days, then 1260 days. That's neat, because 220 + 1040 = 1260.

Just now, I changed my mind again. I now see clearly that in the 70th Week of Daniel, there will be 220 days, then 1260 days, then 1040 days. Why? The two witnesses, Moses and Elijah must prophesy the full 1260 days, the first half of the 2300-day Tribulation. That leaves 1040 days for the shortened last half of the Tribulation.

Oct. 21, 2008, the 8th day of Tabernacles, the 2520 days of the 70th Week of Daniel will begin. Moses and Elijah will begin prophesying 220 days later, on May 29, 2009, Pentecost.

On the 1260th day, Nov. 9, 2012, Cheshvan 24, 5773, the False Prophet will kill Moses and Elijah, who will be resurrected and caught up to Heaven 3.5 days later.

From the 1260th day, Friday, Nov. 9, 2012, there will be another 1040 days until Monday, Sept. 14, 2015, the Feast of Trumpets that is the Day of God's Wrath. Agape

The Martyrdom of James

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.vii.xxiv.html Church History, Esubeus, Chapter XXIII.—The Martyrdom of James, who was called the Brother of the Lord.

But as many as believed did so on account of James.

10. Therefore when many even of the rulers believed, there was a commotion among the Jews and Scribes and Pharisees, who said that there was danger that the whole people would be looking for Jesus as the Christ. Coming therefore in a body to James they said, ‘We entreat thee, restrain the people; for they are gone astray in regard to Jesus, as if he were the Christ....the Jews seem to have asked him a second time, thinking that they could either flatter or frighten him into denying Christ. We entreat thee to persuade all that have come to the feast of the Passover concerning Jesus; for we all have confidence in thee. For we bear thee witness, as do all the people, that thou art just, and dost not respect persons. Cf. Matt. xxii. 16.

11. Do thou therefore persuade the multitude not to be led astray concerning Jesus. For the whole people, and all of us also, have confidence in thee. Stand therefore upon the pinnacle of the temple...that from that high position thou mayest be clearly seen, and that thy words may be readily heard by all the people. For all the tribes, with the Gentiles also, are come together on account of the Passover.’

12. The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: ‘Thou just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus....

13. And he answered with a loud voice, ‘Why do ye ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sitteth in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven....

14. And when many were fully convinced and gloried in the testimony of James, and said, ‘Hosanna to the Son of David,’ these same Scribes and Pharisees said again to one another, ‘We have done badly in supplying such testimony to Jesus. But let us go up and throw him down, in order that they may be afraid to believe him.’

15. And they cried out, saying, ‘Oh! oh! the just man is also in error.’ And they fulfilled the Scripture written in Isaiah, Isa. iii. 10..

16. So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, ‘Let us stone James the Just.’ And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, ‘I entreat thee, Lord God our Father...forgive them, for they know not what they do.... Luke xxiii. 34. 17. And while they were thus stoning him one of the priests of the sons of Rechab, the son of the Rechabites,...

And one of them, who was a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom....And they buried him on the spot...He became a true witness, both to Jews and Greeks, that Jesus is the Christ.

My reply to a post on the Five Doves site

Re: Ron Reese: Beginning and end of 70th week of Dan. 9:27
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/dec2008/dec1-2008.htm

> > THE FINAL SEVEN YEARS OF OCT. 29, 2008, THRU SEPT. 23, 2015

I too think the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 has already begun. However, I think it started on the 8th day of Tabernacles, Oct. 21, 2008. Counting by Jewish Inclusive Reckoning because the 2520 days are a block of time, they would end on Tishri 1, 5776, the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 14, 2015.

This is perfect, because the Day of God's Wrath is on the Feast of Trumpets. Joel 2:1,2 says, "Blow ye the TRUMPET in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (Gog's army); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."

I expect the Jubilee Year to be announced on the Day of Atonement, Tishri 10, 5776 (Sept. 23, 2015), and to start when Christ returns on the following Nisan 1, 5776 (April 9, 2016). That will be the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year, Regnal because Jesus is the King of kings, Sacred because he is the Lord of lords.

The time between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent has to be 7 months. Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD." He will be glorified at the Second Advent.

The year 5776 is a Jewish Leap year. Therefore, there are 7 months between Tishri 1 (the Day of God's Wrath) and the following Nisan 1 (the Second Advent) instead of the usual 6.

> > Revelation 8:1, which says, "...there was silence in heaven ABOUT THE SPACE OF HALF AN HOUR." We have all read that verse, but nobody had ever understood it. This is another one of those verses that cannot be understood until it is fulfilled. Why "half an hour"??? Why "silence in heaven"???

I think the silence in Heaven and Earth is when Jesus is seated as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Hab 2:20 says, "But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the EARTH keep silence before him."

Rev 8:1-6 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth (symbolizing the asteroid Wormwood that will impact Earth): and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound." The trumpets announce judgments that will all hit the Earth on the Day of God's Wrath. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Reply to "I say a great chastisement will occur"

Well, at least Mr X doesn't allegorize the tribulation! But as Chuck Missler so eloguently states, those who think the church is going to go through the great tribulation understand neither the church nor the tribulation.

The church has been called out of the world to be the bride of Christ. Consider the Jewish wedding, the groom comes for the bride suddenly and without warning at a time that is determined by the Father. God has set aside a 70 week period to deal with Israel, 69 of those weeks have passed but were put on hold so that the church age would occur, a time of unprecedented mercy and grace. When Jesus opened his ministry He read from Isaiah 61:1-2 but does not complete the verse, He stops at a comma. That comma has lasted nearly 2000 years! But that is nothing to the Ageless one.

Do I deserve to go through the tribulation? Absolutely, more than I can even imagine, but God delights in mercy (Micah 7:18). Jesus took what I deserved at Calvary and it is a mockery of His work to think that He will send us into the great tribulation. The 70th week, like the first 69, is purposed to deal with Israel, to wake them up from the sleep and blindness of the last 2000 years. It will also have the effect of "waking up" many gentiles and cause them to come to faith in Christ, without which they would die in their sin. Revelation 3:10 says "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." so the church of Philadelphia is specifically promised not to go into the great tribulation.

I realize Mr X has made up his mind and will disagree, but Jesus calls us to love rather than to agree. One day all will be clear.

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