Pro and Con 1455

Posted 12-15-08

Incoming e-mail, Re: Rapture on Dec. 21, 2008

Thanks Marilyn, You propose a very convincing case! I will be watching and ready. YBIC

Incoming e-mail, Re: Rice move to bind incoming Israeli PM?

Preparing peace-talk docs for Obama that could limit maneuverability
By Aaron Klein, Nov 26, 08

Condoleezza Rice
JERUSALEM – Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has been collecting notes and documents from Israeli and Palestinian negotiating teams to ensure the incoming administration of President-elect Barack Obama will not need to start negotiations here from scratch, WND has learned....

Five days after WND broke the story exposing secret Israeli-Palestinian talks aimed at reaching an agreement on core issues, Olmert announced Tuesday that "in principle there is nothing to prevent us from reaching an agreement on the core issues in the near future....

Last week, informed Israeli and Palestinian sources told WND that despite media reports painting a dismal picture of negotiation prospects, Israel and the PA were still quietly working to conclude a major agreement before President Bush leaves office.

Nobel Peace winner to Obama: Focus on ME

Dec. 10, 2008, AP , JERUSALEM POST
Nobel Peace Prize winner Martti Ahtisaari urged US President-elect Barack Obama on Wednesday to start his term by giving "high priority" to the Middle East conflict, calling it the world's most challenging peace-building project.

UNHRC slams Israel for 'crimes against humanity'

DAN IZENBERG and tovah lazaroff , JERUSALEM POST, Dec. 9, 2008

UN to Israel: Free Palestinian prisoners, lift Gaza blockade;
Passes list of 99 'recommendations' for Israel to make toward Palestinians

Peres Says Oil Price Cut Can Stop Iran's Nuclear Program

Kislev 12, 5769, 09 Dec 08 - “There is no need to use military force against Iran at this stage,” Peres told his audience. Instead, he said, Israel must work with the United States, Europe and China to reduce the price of oil, thus depleting Iran's economy and leaving it without resources to pursue nuclear bombs and other weapons....

Peres also took the opportunity to promote a region-wide peace deal, saying, “We cannot take too much more time to arrive at a comprehensive peace agreement with the entire Middle East.” Peres has been vocal in his support for a regional peace pact based roughly on the 2002 Saudi Initiative.

The James Ossuary and the Yehoash Inscription


Bruce Warner (10 Dec 2008)

...The RAPTURE "HARVEST" happens "now" in the month of (December) plus the "four months more" of (January, February, March, April) and then the normal BARLEY "harvest" happens in the month of (May).

Marilyn Agee says to watch for the rapture to happen on Kislev 24 which is December 21, 2008 and is the Day of Jesus' Conception. I believe that she is RIGHT according to John 4:35...

Financial Times Editorial Admits Agenda For Dictatorial World Government

Jaw-dropping report concedes that “global governance” is a euphemism for anti-democratic global government

By Paul Joseph Watson, Dec 9, 08

“For the first time in my life, I think the formation of some sort of world government is plausible,” writes Rachman, citing the financial crisis, “global warming” and the “global war on terror” as three major pretexts through which it is being introduced.

Rachman writes that “global governance” could be introduced much sooner than many expect and that President elect Barack Obama has already expressed his desire to achieve that goal, making reference to Obama’s circle of advisors which includes Strobe Talbott, who in 1992 stated, “In the next century, nations as we know it will be obsolete; all states will recognize a single, global authority. National sovereignty wasn’t such a great idea after all.”

Rachman then concedes that the more abstract term “global governance,” which is often used by top globalists like David Rockefeller as a veil to offset accusations that a centralized global government is the real agenda, is merely a trick of “soothing language” that is used to prevent “people reaching for their rifles in America’s talk-radio heartland”.

“But some European thinkers think that they recognise what is going on,” says Rachman. “Jacques Attali, an adviser to President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, argues that: “Global governance is just a euphemism for global government.” As far as he is concerned, some form of global government cannot come too soon. Mr Attali believes that the “core of the international financial crisis is that we have global financial markets and no global rule of law”.

Rachman proceeds to outline what the first steps to an official world government would look like, including the creation of “A legally binding climate-change agreement negotiated under the auspices of the UN and the creation of a 50,000-strong UN peacekeeping force”.

“A “world government” would involve much more than co-operation between nations,” writes Rachman. “It would be an entity with state-like characteristics, backed by a body of laws. The European Union has already set up a continental government for 27 countries, which could be a model. The EU has a supreme court, a currency, thousands of pages of law, a large civil service and the ability to deploy military force.”...

Tellingly, Rachman concedes that “International governance tends to be effective, only when it is anti-democratic,” citing the continual rejection of EU expansion when the question is put to a vote. “In general, the Union has progressed fastest when far-reaching deals have been agreed by technocrats and politicians – and then pushed through without direct reference to the voters,” writes Rachman.

So there you have it - one of the world’s top newspapers, editorially led by chief economics commentator Martin Wolf, a top Bilderberg luminary, openly proclaiming that not only is world government the agenda, but that world government will only be achieved through dictatorial measures because the majority of the people are dead against.

Forgery Conference

Hosted by Biblical Archaeology Review

1. The Moabite Stone is authentic.
2. The James Ossuary Inscription is very probably authentic.
3. The Ivory Pomegranate Inscription is quite probably authentic.
4. The Yehoash Inscription produced a deep division of opinion. Some said it was a forgery. Others said they could not make this judgment. Some material scientists suggested it was authentic.
5. The Moussaieff Ostraca (the Three-Shekel Ostracon and the Widow’s Plea Ostracon) are probably forgeries.
6. The Moussaieff Ostracon presented by Martin Heide is very probably authentic, although most of the participants saw this ostracon for the first time at the conference.

My reply

The main ones I am interested in are the James Ossuary and the Yehoash Inscription. Both seem authentic to me.

Incoming e-mail, Re:

Blair says that Palestinians and Israelis Reached a Secret Agreement By Daoud Kuttab, Posted December 7, 2008

A post on Five Doves site

Rene (9 Dec 2008)
"Jupiter Bombardment - countdown?"

It is interesting that it has been 14 years since the Jupiter bombardment of 21 comet fragments. Add SEVEN more years - to the END of the trib - perhaps??? Then you would have one year of time left represented by every frament that hit the King planet, not to mention the fact that there are 21 trumpet, vial, and bowl judgements during the last 7 years of this 21 year period!!! Rene

My reply

When the String of Pearls hit Jupiter, it was a huge sign. No one had ever seen anything like it. Surely the whole world was meant to take note of its significance.

1994 + 7 = 2001
1994 + 14 = 2008
1994 + 21 = 2015. That's perfect. I think Sept. 14, 2015 will be the Day of God's Wrath.

The tetrad eclipses point to that date too. Pastor Mark Biltz listed these:

"1601 to 1700 - 0 TETRADS
1701 to 1800 – 0 TETRADS
1801 to 1900 – 0 TETRADS
1901 to 2000 – 5 TETRADS
2001 to 2100 – 8 TETRADS

"2014, April 15 [5774, Nisan 15]
2014, October 08 [5775, Tishrei 14]
2015, April 04 [5775, Nisan 15]
2015, September 28 [5776, Tishrei 15]

"Consider this sequence in 2015 on the Hebrew calendar:

29 Adar 5775 [New Year’s Eve Sacred Calendar] – Total SOLAR eclipse
15 Nisan 5775 [Passover] – Total LUNAR eclipse
29 Elul 5775 [New Year’s Eve Civil Calendar] – Partial SOLAR eclipse
15 Tishrei 5776 [Succot] – Total LUNAR eclipse"

Elul 29, 5775 becomes the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5776, at 6 PM. I think that is the Day of God's Wrath. It is well marked. Agape

Post on Five Doves site

Kurt S (11 Dec 2008) "Rapture worthy?"

My reply

> > Assuming that we are living a short time from the rapture and the tribulation events, maybe just days, why are we Christians living today held to a higher standard than those Christians who have lived and died before us?

I am of the opinion that we are all held to the same standard. There are 2 resurrections of saints, one before the Tribulation, the other just before God's wrath falls on the Day of God's wrath. I haven't found any scripture that says that there are different standards. I assume that those that deserve to be in the first group will be resurrected with the first group. Those that deserve to be in the second group will be resurrected with the second group. Agape

A post on Five Doves site, Re: "Question: Who is going up in the Rapture?"

For some time now, I have heard conflicting views about who is going to go up in the rapture. (I’m talking about we who are alive and remain). I’ve heard and read countless times two different versions.

1. Only those Christians who are overcomers and are living pure lives are going up in the rapture. Pastors like Perry Stone teach this, using Bible verses like Luke 21:36 ,for example: “Be always on guard and pray that you will be counted worthy to escape all these things that are about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” Also scriptures like in Revelation 3:10 that states, “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will keep thee out of the hour of temptation (referring to the tribulation) which is to come upon all the earth.” And we all know the parable of the 10 virgins, that only those who have oil in their lamps will be ready when the Bridegroom comes.

2. All Christians will be included in the Rapture. Pastor Riley teaches this, and also Jack Van Impe, who uses the scripture in 1 John 2:28, which says, “And now, dear children, continue in Him, so that when He appears, we may be confident and not ashamed before Him at His coming.” Jack Van Impe uses the argument that if only those that are living blameless lives are going in the rapture, why would they be ashamed? In other words, only lukewarm Christians would be ashamed at His coming. He also states that after Revelation chapter 3, the church is no longer mentioned, which proves there are no longer any Christians on earth. Only those who got saved after the rapture are the Tribulation Saints who were martyred in Revelation, chapter 4.

Using scripture, I can see both sides of the argument. But which one is correct?

Any thoughts?

My reply

> > For some time now, I have heard conflicting views about who is going to go up in the rapture. (I’m talking about we who are alive and remain). I’ve heard and read countless times two different versions.

I think it is clear that some believers are going to be spued out of the Body of Christ. We can't just pick out one scripture and make a decision, we have to consult all Scriptures on a subject to get the complete picture.

There are two groups of saints, those that can sing the NEW SONG, and those that can't sing the NEW SONG.

Rev. 5:9 says of the Bride of Christ, "And they sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".

On top of the obvious split demonstrated in the parable of the 10 virgins, there are both Philadelphians and Laodiceans on Earth at the time of the Rapture of Rev. 4:1. The Lord had no words of condemnation for the Philadelphians. He had words of condemnation for the Laodiceans.

In Rev 3:10, Jesus addressed the Philadelphians. He said, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (hupomone, patient endurance), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (lit., trial), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Patient endurance is something I know about. I thought the Rapture would be on Pentecost in 1998. It fit Song of Solomon 2:10-14 perfectly. However, as you probably already know, I have patiently endured. Today, I think the Rapture will be Dec. 21, 2008, and there is more reason than ever to think this will be the day we have waited for so patiently.

We have found out about the eclipses in 2014 and 2015. A solar eclipse will take place after 6 PM on our Sept. 13, 2015. That makes it Tishri 1, our Sept. 14, to the Jews. That seems to be the Day of God's Wrath and the end of the 2300-day shortened Tribulation of Dan. 8:13,14. Counting back 2300 days brings us to May 29, 2009, Pentecost, and probably the first day of the shortened Tribulation.

We should be caught up before Pentecost, because at the time of the Rapture, Rev 17:12-14 says, "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received NO KINGDOM AS YET; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and THEY THAT ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL."

The saints caught up in the first Rapture sing a NEW SONG. Rev. 5:9 says, "

Back to Rev 3:15,16, Jesus said to the Laodiceans, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I WILL SPUE (lit., vomit) THEE OUT OF MY MOUTH." Symbolically, these are still in the stomach, not assimilated, not yet working parts of the Body of Christ. These are not the called, and chosen, and faithful group. They weren't wearing white robes at the time of the Rapture.

Luke 12:46 tells us about them. It says, "The lord of that servant (the evil one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (i.e., the shortened Tribulation) with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the hypocrites (pretenders): THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

Weeping and gnashing of teeth leads us to Mt. 22:11-14. It says, "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless (like the Laodiceans, he thought he had it made) Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. FOR MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN."

The chosen ones are the Bride of Christ. They sing the NEW SONG. At the time of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, only the 144,000 Israelites can be added to the Bride group. The rest cannot sing the NEW SONG.

Rev 14:2-5 says, "I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and NO MAN COULD LEARN THAT SONG BUT THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for THEY ARE VIRGINS. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: FOR THEY ARE WITHOUT FAULT BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD."

In Psa. 149:5-9, ALL HIS SAINTS, those caught up in both Raptures, sing in Heaven, but it doesn't say that they sing the new song. It says, "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them SING aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have ALL HIS SAINTS. Praise ye the LORD."

Pastor R.B. Thieme said that each one of us would bump one demon. That makes me wonder if the Rapture will take place when there are as many saints as demons. We don't have long to find out. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Covenant With Many

Several folks have stated their belief that the 70th Week of Daniel has begun and it began a few nights before the election when Obama gave that big television speech. I would like to add to the discussion. First of all, I do not pretend to know if they are correct and the 70th week has or is beginning or not. Rather, I just want to point out a couple things about covenant. Covenant is a multi-step process that takes more than one person and has to be a two-way exchange. And then there is a signing ceremony or exchange of something as a sign to all that an agreement has taken place and the covenant is in place. If this is true, Obama’s speech was an offer! A few days later came the election which was the acceptance by the people! And finally, January 20, 2009 will be the signing ceremony or exchange which publically seals the deal! Think of it as a marriage. The groom asks the bride to marry him. She accepts and there is a waiting period (engagement) (very similar to what America has going with the President-elect right now) and then finally the wedding which takes place next month. So if the 70th week is about to begin, it might not start till January 20th when the ceremony/wedding takes place between Obama and his new bride, America and the world.

A lot of you are concerned that the Rapture must begin before the end of the year 2008. May I also point out that the Jewish year doesn’t come to an end for several more months in the Spring. So if God is still working off the Hebrew calendar, we may still have a couple more months to go in this Hebrew year. So I would like to suggest that everybody relax. We still may have some more time and God still has some time to work with.

I hope this is helpful. Blessings and all the best.

My reply

Some think that the 70th week of Daniel hasn't started because the 7-year peace treaty hasn't been signed. They could be right.

Dan. 9:27 says, "And he shall confirm (lit., strengthen) the covenant with many for one week (i.e., 7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by sitting in the Temple 'shewing himself that he is God", 2 Thess. 2:4), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined (the 2 asteroid impacts of Rev. 8:8-10) shall be poured upon the desolate" (the unbelievers left on Earth after the Pre-Wrath Rapture has taken place).


The Tribulation is to be shortened or no flesh would be saved. Mt. 24:20-22 says, "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter (i.e., I think Mid-Trib will be Sun., Nov. 9, 2012), neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.And except those days (orig. 1260) should be shortened (to 1040), there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."


Dan. 8:13,14 tells us about the shortened Tribulation. It says, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (i.e., 1st half), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib, Mt. 24:15), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

Here is how I think the 2520-day Tribulation (1260 + 1260 days) will be shortened. The second 1260 days will be shortened to 1040, and the 220 days will precede the 2300-day Shortened Tribulation, so Daniel's 70th week will run for the whole 7 years.

It looks like the full 70th Week of Daniel could run from Oct. 21, 2008, the 8th day of Tabernacles, to Sept. 14, 2015, or the Shortened 70th Week could run from May 29, 2009, Pentecost, to Sept. 14, 2015, the Feast of Trumpets. The Peace Treaty may be signed next Pentecost, May 29, 2009.


The Parable of the Fig Tree in Mt. 24:32-34 suggests that the Day of God's Wrath can't be later than 48.33 years (a generation, Mt. 1:17) after the Six-Day War of 1967. Forty-eight years later will be 2015. The war started June 5. Adding 4 months, June, July, Aug. and Sept., makes the Sept. 14, 2015 Feast of Trumpets (Joel 1:15; 2:1-3) seem to be the latest the Day of God's Wrath could happen.


Joel 1:14,15; 2:1-3 says, "Sanctify ye a fast (i.e., the Day of Atonement is 10 days later), call a solemn assembly (i.e., on the Feast of Trumpets), gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD, Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come....Blow ye the TRUMPET in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong (Gog's army is attacking Israel); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."

THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE, A DAY LIKE NO OTHER - EVER Jer. 30:7 says of that Feast of Trumpets, "Alas! for that day is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: it is even THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it." The Pre-Wrath Rapture will catch up all believers, then God's wrath will fall on the unbelievers left on Earth.

Dan 12:1,2 says, "And at that time (when the False Prophet shall be deposed, Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: and at that time thy people (i.e., the 144,000, Rev. 7) shall be delivered (malat, escape; i.e., be raptured), every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake". Agape

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