Pro and Con 1460
What an aurora!
Incoming e-mail, Re: post-trib vs pre-wrath
I read your 5 doves post from today and enjoyed it. Glad someone else besides me has rejected the whole pre-trib hoopla.
You seem to be of the pre-wrath position. How would you convince someone of the post-trib position (like me) that the pre-wrath is the way to go?
This is a post I asked to get posted to the 5 doves website, nothing yet. Take care
The pre-tribulation rapture is certainly something I HOPE is true, because it is the better deal by far FOR US. But we as Christians live for Jesus, others, then for ourselves last. Therefore, the better deal FOR US may look good to us, but it may not be God's plan. I personally used to believe in the pre-trib rapture position. But many hours of dedicated and focused study on God's Word last year led me to believe that the pre-tribulation rapture is not taught by Scripture.
Interestingly enough, especially to me, I have now come to believe that the Bible teaches a post-tribulation rapture. Yes, we Christians will be spared God's wrath ... God's wrath on the last day, which makes all else look like peanuts in comparison. Before that, God's people will be protected from aspects of the tribulation, but will suffer the wrath of Satan, as born again Christians have throughout the centuries. We best get ready for it. The Holy Spirit will teach us what to say, will mark and protect us from the sting of the scorpion (5th trumpet), will not let the sun "beat upon them, nor any scorching heat", will lead us to witness to millions who will become believers during the tribulation. I submit that this will be a time when God's requires us on Earth, to obey and stand firm, because we as Christians live for Jesus first, and others second. This makes sense logically, but Scripture is what really points to a post-trib rapture.
I found that the pre-trib position was based on just too much inference and not enough concrete Biblical teaching.
The harvest of the earth, the rapture, the return of Christ, the last trumpet, the shout of the archangel, the great earthquake and hailstorm, the gathering of nations to Megiddo, the treading of the winepress of God's wrath, all will happen on "the day of the Lord". Yes, a single day. "It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime—a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light." Zechariah 14:7. Jesus says the resurrection will occur "on the last day", the day of the Lord. No where does the Bible speak of two resurrections. On the contrary, Revelations says "this is the first resurrection" -- there's the proof.
"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." --- Where is this passage? Immediately before the 7th bowl judgement. Yes, Jesus comes like a thief ... on the last day. --- there's some more proof!
Besides all of the Biblical evidence, the key to really understanding the post-trib position is to understand that though the visions given to the Apostle John were given in a series, each vision paints a different picture and they overlap one over another, similar to the four Gospels if you read the beginning of Matthew to the end of John, not knowing where each Gospel started and ended.. Also kinda similar to how you would read a Tom Clancy novel ... there's so much stuff going that Tom Clancy is forced to make it overlap. If you strictly read each section as being in chronological order, you'd get hopelessly confused. And there's going to be A LOT going on during the Tribulation. Overlapping visions are the only way to paint an adequate picture. I really believe now that the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet, and the 7th bowl judgement all occur on the last day. Read the Revelation account of each and see the similarities.
I fear Satan is hoping many believers hold to the pre-trib position. He will be able to convince many unsaved pre-trib "Christians" to take the mark because they're still here, therefore it can't be "the" mark. I also know a great many Christians who may be ready for the Rapture, but they're not even close to being ready to be warriors for God during the last days. They are going to get caught off guard, and many will be downtrodden and upset.
I think we all as Christians need to get ready for the end and be prepared to 'make disciples' like never before! Why would God remove all of his Gospel spreading warriors when He requires their service the most? The answer is, He will not. The time of great testing is coming, are you ready?
I urge all pre-tribbers out there to reconsider. Pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit as you review the Scriptures for the answer. In Christ
> > I read your 5 doves post from today and enjoyed it. Glad someone else besides me has rejected the whole pre-trib hoopla.
I HAVE NOT REJECTED THE "PRE-TRIB HOOPLA"
I said, "I don't think there will be sudden destruction at the PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, THE FIRST TRUMP OF GOD (I Thess. 4:16,17). The Wrath of God follows the PRE-WRATH RAPTURE, THE "LAST TRUMP" OF GOD. It is the Rapture of I Cor. 15:51,52 (compare Rev. 6:17; 7:14, and 8:1f". I mentioned two Raptures there.
THE BRIDE OF CHRIST WILL BE RAPTURED BEFORE THE TRIBULATION
The Revelation of Jesus Christ was written as if the Rapture was at hand. It is at hand in both the first and last chapters (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10). Rev. 1:19 shows how the book is organized. In it, Jesus said, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., before the Rapture), and the things which ARE (at the time of the Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter" (hereafter the Rapture starts in Rev. 4:1).
In Luke 21:36, the Lord Jesus Christ himself said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE (ekpheugo, TO FLEE AWAY, TO SEEK SAFETY IN FLIGHT, TO ESCAPE) ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
PREVIEW OF THE RAPTURE
In the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1:10, John was caught up to Heaven. When he got there, the 7 candlesticks were there also. Jesus had the 7 stars in his hand, having just caught them up. Rev. 1:20 says, "The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." They are all in Heaven when John is caught up before the Tribulation.
In Rev. 4:1, before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6, John is caught up to Heaven. In 4:4, we see all 24 elders with their crowns seated on their thrones. The other 23 are there too. They are the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles of Israel. All have received their resurrection bodies before the Tribulation.
TWO RAPTURES, PRE-TRIB AND PRE-WRATH
The first group are the wise virgins (Mt. 25:1f), the Bride of Christ. The second group are the foolish virgins and many other Tribulation saints (Rev. 7:9,14). Of the 2nd group, only the 144,000 are added to the Bride group (Rev. 14:3-5).
PRE-TRIB RAPTURE SAINTS
In Rev. 5:9 we see that the Pre-Trib saints sing the "NEW SONG." It says, "And they sung a NEW SONG, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation".
They are in Heaven before the Tribulation starts in chapter 6. They are in Heaven when Jesus is given the seven-sealed Title Deed of the Earth in Rev. 5:7. At that point, the whole Tribulation is still future. Breaking the first seal in Rev. 6 starts the Tribulation.
PRE-WRATH RAPTURE SAINTS
In Rev. 14:2-5, only the 144,000 Hebrew Tribulation saints get to sing the NEW SONG." It says, "And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and NO MAN COULD LEARN THAT SONG BUT THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, WHICH WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH. These are they which were not defiled with women; for THEY ARE VIRGINS. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are WITHOUT FAULT before the throne of God."
THERE IS NO RAPTURE AFTER THE TRIBULATION
"ALL HIS SAINTS" WILL BE IN HEAVEN BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD HITS EARTH. After they get to heaven, "all his saints" will be honored with a special priviledge. Psa. 149:1-9 says, "Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a NEW SONG, and his praise in the congregation of saints. Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp. For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;To execute upon them the JUDGMENT written: this honour have ALL HIS SAINTS. Praise ye the LORD."
THOSE THAT TURN TO THE LORD DURING THE 7 MONTHS BETWEEN GOD'S WRATH AND THE SECOND ADVENT WILL STAY ON EARTH
Eze 39:12,13 says, "And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be GLORIFIED, saith the Lord GOD."
THE JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS
Mt 25:31-34 says, "When the Son of man shall come in his GLORY, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his GLORY: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world".
> > will lead us to witness to millions who will become believers during the tribulation.
Just our being raptured will witness to the people during the Tribulation.
Psa 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. HE BROUGHT ME UP (i.e., at the Rapture) also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (as Jeremiah was pulled up out of the miry pit), and set my feet upon a rock (i.e., Heaven), and established my goings (i.e., suggesting 2 Raptures). And he hath put a NEW SONG in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT (the Rapture), AND FEAR, AND SHALL TRUST IN THE LORD."
John 9:4 says, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."
> > No where does the Bible speak of two resurrections. On the contrary, Revelations says "this is the first resurrection" -- there's the proof.
Have you read John 5:29? It says, "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION." As I understand it, all resurrected before the Wrath of God hits Earth are part of the first resurrection, the Resurrection of Life. The rest will be resurrected after the Millennium, at the Resurrection of Damnation.
Rev 20:12-14 says, "And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God (i.e., another resurrection); and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and THE DEAD were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up THE DEAD which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
> > "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." --- Where is this passage? Immediately before the 7th bowl judgement. Yes, Jesus comes like a thief ... on the last day. --- there's some more proof!
1Thess 5:4 says, "But ye, brethren (believers), are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."
> > I really believe now that the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet, and the 7th bowl judgement all occur on the last day.
The 7 trumpets come out of the 7th seal, and happen on one day, but the bowls (or vials) show what develops over time. For instance, in Rev. 8:8,9, the asteroid as big as a mountain hits the Mediterranean Sea. At first one third of life in the sea died. Later, all life in the sea was dead.
Rev 8:8,9 says, "And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 16:3 says, "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea."
> > I also know a great many Christians who may be ready for the Rapture, but they're not even close to being ready to be warriors for God during the last days. They are going to get caught off guard, and many will be downtrodden and upset.
Search the Scriptures for Jesus' instructions on how believers are to prepare for the Tribulation. You won't find any. Why? Because we won't be here.
> > I think we all as Christians need to get ready for the end and be prepared to 'make disciples' like never before!
What we need to do to get ready is confess our sins to God to bring all sins committed after accepting Christ as our own personal Saviour under the blood of Christ. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Agape
His reply, Re: post-trib vs pre-wrath
Thanks for the response Marilyn.
If the trumpets all occur on one day, why does the sting of the scorpion in the 5th trumpet have the power to torment for 5 months? (Revelation 9)
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Why should we not take Paul's "last trumpet" to mean the last trumpet of Revelation, the 7th trumpet?
Also - Your response to the Jesus' "I come like a thief" seems inadequate. Seems like a stronger argument would be for the pre-tribber "He comes like a thief twice". But even that argument doesn't stand up well. There's virtually no clear scripture of Jesus coming to the Earth twice during the last seven years.
Two resurrections (spaced 7 years apart) = THE FIRST RESURRECTION? I have trouble with that one. Jesus even said this in John 6:39-40. Why should we not interpret that to mean the actual last day, the Day of the Lord? When the 7th trumpet sounds? The pre-tribber really stretches out that "last day", almost ridiculously so.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:39-40).
The pre-trib position relies on major inferences, where the Bible speaks to the rapture occuring on the day of the Lord. Take a look at Psalm 18.
7-16: The earth trembled and quaked, and the foundations of the mountains shook; they trembled because he was angry. Smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it. He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet. He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind. He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him—the dark rain clouds of the sky. Out of the brightness of his presence clouds advanced, with hailstones and bolts of lightning. The LORD thundered from heaven;
the voice of the Most High resounded. [c] He shot his arrows and scattered the enemies , great bolts of lightning and routed them. The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at your rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of breath from your nostrils. He reached down from on high and took hold of me; he drew me out of deep waters.
Verse 16 is the rapture/resurrection. Again, in the context, this occurs on the same day of His coming in power, the Day of the Lord, described so powerfully above verse 16.
Overall, your argument is built with lots of inferences, making meaning of certain scripture that is just not there on the surface. Inference. Always interesting to hear more about the other side. I really am giving it a fair shake, trying to keep an open mind. Thanks again.
> > If the trumpets all occur on one day, why does the sting of the scorpion in the 5th trumpet have the power to torment for 5 months? (Revelation 9)
Rev 9:5,6,11 says, "And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented FIVE MONTHS: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it".
It shows us that Satan and his fallen angels are still free. You see, there are 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath on Tishri 1 and the Second Advent on the following Nisan 1, the first day of the Regnal Year. Armageddon is a last ditch stand between Christ's forces and Satan's forces. It can't take place until after Christ is on Earth.
Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (i.e., at the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD."
That last year has to be a Jewish Leap Year with the 13th month. Otherwise, there would only be 6 months between Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1. The Jewish 5775 is a Sabbatic Year, and 5776 is a Leap Year and a Jubilee Year. The Jubilee should be announced on the Day of Atonement in 5776 and start on the following Nisan 1, 5776 (April 9, 2016), the day Christ returns.
The day of the Second Advent will be an unusual day, for at evening it will be light. That shows us that the Second Advent is not on the Day of God's Wrath, for that is a day of thick darkness from the 2 asteroid impacts (Rev. 8:8-11)..
Joel 2:2 says, "A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."
Of the day of the Second Advent, Zech 14:4-9 says, "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south....and THE LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE LIGHT SHALL NOT BE CLEAR, NOR DARK: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be KING OVER ALL THE EARTH: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."
> > 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
> > Why should we not take Paul's "last trumpet" to mean the last trumpet of Revelation, the 7th trumpet?
Because it is not a trumpet judgment sounded by an angel. It is the last TRUMPET OF GOD.
2Tim 2:15 says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly DIVIDING the word of truth." I like the way it says, "Selah" in the Psalms. It means stop and think about this. If we read too fast, we can miss subtle clues. The Bible is meant to be nonsense to the unbeliever, so some things take a little pondering to figure out, but it is possible. The wise shall understand.
The first trumpet of God is at the first Rapture, and it can't be the first trumpet judgment sounded by an angel. In the KJV, I Thess. 4:16,17 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Rev 8:7 says, "The FIRST angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up." That can't be the Pre-Trib Rapture of I Thess. 4:16,17.
> > There's virtually no clear scripture of Jesus coming to the Earth twice during the last seven years.
He doesn't come to touch down on the Earth until 7 months after the 2nd Rapture. At both Raptures, the saints meet Jesus in the clouds. The Sign of the Son of Man (Mt. 24:30) is seen in the sky at the second Rapture. Jesus is seen sitting on his throne because that is his Coronation Day in Heaven. It is also the day of the Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ. All the saints are gathered to the General Assembly (Heb. 12:23) in Heaven that day.
Mt 24:31 says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." These elect are the Bride of Christ that were caught up to Heaven at the Pre-Trib Rapture.
Mark 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN." It is the Tribulation saints that are gathered from the Earth.
Heb 12:22-24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY and church of the FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men MADE PERFECT, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." All these FIRSTBORN are the ones who participate in the FIRST RESURRECTION. The last resurrection will come at the end of the Millennium.
FIRST TRUMP, RESURRECTION ON THE FIRST DAY, THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE
1Thess 4:16,17 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." The dead are raised incorruptible, and we get resurrection bodies too, but none are yet truly immortal. That follows the LAST TRUMP RAPTURE.
MANY SHALL SEE THE FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE. Psa 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (i.e., grave), out of the miry clay (i.e., bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings (i.e., at the Rapture). And he hath put a NEW SONG in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it (the first Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD." They will be caught up later, at the Pre-Wrath Rapture.
LAST TRUMP, RESURRECTION ON THE LAST DAY, THE PRE-WRATH RAPTURE
1 Cor. 15:51-53 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL (THOSE OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION, PAUL INCLUDED) BE CHANGED, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and THIS MORTAL MUST PUT IMMORTALITY."
Num 10:1-4 says, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the ASSEMBLY, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall BLOW WITH THEM (i.e., with both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes (i.e., elders), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." We see all 24 elders sitting on their thrones after the First-Trump Rapture in Rev. 4:4. They are the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles.
I hope this makes things clearer. Happy New Year. Agape
Pro and Con 1461 Or Return
Contact me for more information at: email@example.com
8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (951) 653-4110
© 1996-2008, Marilyn J. Agee; Updated 1-2-09