Pro and Con 1462

Posted 1-7-09

A stunning anticrepuscular aurora

His reply, Re: post-trib vs pre-wrath Rapture

Excellent. Thanks Marilyn. Your knowledge of the Bible is very impressive.

As for Luke 17:22-31, I still don't see a clear connection to two raptures. You can read two raptures into it, but it's not something that jumps from this passage. This passage may be Jesus using two examples (Noah and Lot) to describe the same single Day of Wrath and rapture. Both of the Noah and Lot sections end with total destruction (flood for Noah, brimstone for Lot). The pre-trib rapture does not, however, precede total destruction like a flood.

I'm now trying to figure out why the KJV adds "and arte to come" in Rev 11:15-19, while the NIV and other versions leave this part out. Any ideas?

When Jesus comes to separate the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46, He has presumably returned to Earth, gathered all the nations, but has not yet destroyed the unbelievers. How is this not the Second Advent? What distinguishes your "Second Advent" from Jesus returning to the Earth as described in Matt 25:31-46?

Thank you so much for taking the time you have to show this to me. I'm not really interested in being right, I'm just interested in the truth. So pls know that I have read everything you sent me, and I am truly weighing it. I appreciate the time you have spent explaining your position.

The pre-tribulation rapture is something I really hope is true. I would love for Jesus to take me and my family away from this crazy world and watch the tribulation from the comfort of heaven. And if the pre-tribbers are right, I hope Jesus doesn't hold my post-trib belief against me. But you have to admit that the pre-trib position is built heavily on inference. You show me a scripture which you say teaches pre-trib, but I just don't see the clear connection. I like clear connections, and I think the Bible gives us lots of clear evidence to form a conclusion without needing a PhD. We both belief in a pre-wrath rapture, this is good. But I still have difficulty seeing a clear pre-trib rapture in scripture.

I could be wrong about a pre-wrath only rapture. I think it would be healthy for the pre-tribbers to at least admit that they may be erroneous about a pre-trib rapture. If pre-tribbers had the clear scripture to back you up, then perhaps you could rest in the truth a bit. But there is a danger if pre-tribbers are wrong. If post-tribbers are wrong, then we who are saved will simply find out at the pre-trib rapture. But if the pre-tribber is wrong, then he/she will be horribly disappointed and perhaps woefully emotionally and spiritually unprepared not only for the havoc of the tribulation, but unprepared also to make disciples of unbelievers as Christian warriors for the Gospel. Jesus still loves unbelievers and wishes for all to come to repentence. I don't understand why it is so important for us to be spared the tribulation. There are Christians today in many parts of the world undergoing their own tribulation as I wrote this! This has occurred for two thousand years. Why pull us away for another tribulation when we could be so useful to Him here on Earth? As for me, I am emotionally and spiritually ready to go through a tribulation and be a bond-servant for Christ, ready to do anything He would have me do. But, again, a pre-trib rapture would be nice.

I apologize for saying that you don't let scripture speak for itself. That wasn't very fair. God bless you Marilyn. In Christ

My reply

> > Your knowledge of the Bible is very impressive.

Thanks. I have been studying the Bible as hard as I can go for the last 48 years. Also, somewhere in the late 60s I started my 7-years of reading about an 18" stack of books each week from BIOLA's Seminary Collection. I have a great need to understand God's word to us. I have written 3 books about the Bible.

> > As for Luke 17:22-31, I still don't see a clear connection to two raptures. You can read two raptures into it, but it's not something that jumps from this passage. This passage may be Jesus using two examples (Noah and Lot) to describe the same single Day of Wrath and rapture. Both of the Noah and Lot sections end with total destruction (flood for Noah, brimstone for Lot). The pre-trib rapture does not, however, precede total destruction like a flood.

It precedes the Day of God's Wrath by about 7 years. Dan. 12:10 says, "none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. The Lord had to make it hard enough to decipher so those without the indwelling Holy Spirit could not understand it.

The 1st Rapture is mainly of Gentiles. Enoch was the type. He was raptured before the time of the Flood. Gen 5:24 simply says, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." Elijah was the type of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which includes the 144,000 Hebrews of Rev. 7. He was hunted by those that wanted to kill him, and he went up in a chariot of fire.

You want to bring people to the Lord during the Tribulation. That's a nice thought, but John 9:4 says, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." Sometimes, darkness or night symbolizes the time of the Tribulation, and it is darkest before the dawn.

> > I'm now trying to figure out why the KJV adds "and arte to come" in Rev 11:15-19, while the NIV and other versions leave this part out. Any ideas?

Yes. The KJV is the best study Bible. As you found out, the NIV leaves some things out, and those things can be vital to correct understanding. The KJV has "and arte to come", because that is what the Greek says. Green's Interlinear translates verse 17 as, "We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, who is and who was and WHO IS TO COME."

Below are some translations I have on eSword, a wonderful free program. If you don't have it, search on Google. It will come right up. If you have a problem, let me know. I have the URL in my Favorites list. Just yesterday, I downloaded an update.

(Geneva) Saying, We giue thee thankes, Lorde God almightie, Which art, and Which wast, and Which ART TO COME: for thou hast receiued thy great might, and hast obteined thy kingdome."

(Bishops) Saying: we geue thee thankes, O Lorde God almyghtie, which art, and wast, and ART TO COME: for thou hast receaued thy great myght, & hast raigned."

(DRB) We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast and who ART TO COME: because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and thou hast reigned.

(LITV) saying, We thank You, Lord God Almighty, the One who is, and who was, and WHO IS COMING, because You took Your great power and reigned."

(Webster) Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, who art, and wast, and ART TO COME; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

(YLT) saying, `We give thanks to Thee, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art, and who wast, and WHO ART COMING, because Thou hast taken Thy great power and didst reign;

(KJV) Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

"We give thee thanks,G2168 G4671 O LordG2962 GodG2316 Almighty,G3841 which art, and wast, and art to come;G3801 becauseG3754 thou hast takenG2983 to thee thyG4675 greatG3173 power,G1411 andG2532 hast reigned.G936"

G3801 (Strong's Concordance) says, "ho o¯n ho e¯n ho erchomenos...the one being and the one that was and THE ONE COMING, that is, the Eternal, as a divine epithet of Christ....which art (is, was), and (which) wast (is, was), and art (is) TO COME (SHALT BE)"

Thayer"s concordance has, "He who is, and was, AND IS COMING."

> > When Jesus comes to separate the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46, He has presumably returned to Earth, gathered all the nations, but has not yet destroyed the unbelievers. How is this not the Second Advent? What distinguishes your "Second Advent" from Jesus returning to the Earth as described in Matt 25:31-46?

That is after the Second Advent. Mt 25:31,32 says, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats".

He can't come on the day of thick darkness. Zech 14:5-7 says, "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that AT EVENING TIME IT SHALL BE LIGHT."

> > You show me a scripture which you say teaches pre-trib, but I just don't see the clear connection. I like clear connections, and I think the Bible gives us lots of clear evidence to form a conclusion without needing a PhD. We both belief in a pre-wrath rapture, this is good. But I still have difficulty seeing a clear pre-trib rapture in scripture.

We don't need a PhD, we just need the indwelling Holy Spirit. The more you know about the Bible in general, the more you will be able to see subtle connections. There is so much information packed into that small book, God had to inspire every word. If man tried to tell all that, the books would fill a room. There are layers and layers of information. I never get tired of studying it, because there is always something else to learn. The Holy Spirit shows you what you are ready for at any one time.

> > I could be wrong about a pre-wrath only rapture. I think it would be healthy for the pre-tribbers to at least admit that they may be erroneous about a pre-trib rapture. If pre-tribbers had the clear scripture to back you up, then perhaps you could rest in the truth a bit.

We rest in Luke 21, 36. Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE (ekpheugo¯, TO FLEE OUT, ESCAPE) ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

If you search the whole Bible, you will not find any instructions for believers to get ready for the Tribulation. If we were to be here then, don't you think we would be told how to avoid the mark of the beast and still take care of our families? Anyone that takes the mark to be able to buy or sell cannot be saved. What would one do? feed the family grass and dandelion greens? Agape

His reply, Re: post-trib vs pre-wrath

Very good. I believe there's lots of scripture telling us to get ready for the tribulation. Look at Matthew 24. Even the passage you just quoted tells us to be careful about "that day", the Day of the Lord.
34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." And "all that is about to happen", I believe", speaks to his Day of Wrath, rather than the entire 7 years. Verse 35 doesn't give an exception for the Church.

The Bible instructs us not to take the Mark, and tells us the consequences if we do. That's as good a warning any. Now Matthew 24. Look at all the warnings!

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Just look at Matthew 24:30-31! Contextually, this CANNOT be the pre-trib rapture. Contextually, it's silly to even try to say this is the pre-trib rapture. Contextually, this is Paul's last trumpet, the post-tribulation rapture! It fits the post-tribulation model perfectly. "Immediately after the distress of those days" = POST TRIBULATION!

You just read what Jesus said in Matthew 24. He only speaks of ONE RAPTURE, contextually placed at the end of the tribulation. He also gives warnings to believers on how the tribulation will be. This is a huge arrow in your case.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

And ... another warning. Take care Marilyn. In Christ

My reply

> > I believe there's lots of scripture telling us to get ready for the tribulation. Look at Matthew 24. Even the passage you just quoted tells us to be careful about "that day", the Day of the Lord.

We have been given lots of information about what is coming, but no list of things to buy, like vegetable seeds, rice, flour, sugar, salt, canned goods, bottled water, plastic bags, matches, generators, fuel to run them, etc, to be able to get through it without buying or selling. Are we told to build a storehouse and fill it? No. Because the wise virgins, i.e., the Bride of Christ, won't be here during the 2300-day shortened Tribulation at all.

In fact, it looks like there will be some time between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation.

At the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 17:10-14 says, "And there are seven kings: five are fallen (the Pontifex Maximus' of Babel I, Babylon II, Media-Persia, Greece and Imperial Rome), and ONE IS (the PONTIFEX MAXIMUS of Ecclesiastical Rome), and THE OTHER (the False Prophet of Babylon III) IS NOT YET COME; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space (1040 days, the shortened last half of the Tribulation). And the beast (Satan) that was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in man now), even he is the eighth, and is of the seven (controls them), and goeth into perdition (the False Prophet, the last son of perdition, Judas was the first). AND THE TEN HORNS WHICH THOU SAWEST ARE TEN KINGS, WHICH HAVE RECEIVED NO KINGDOM AS YET; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall (in the future) give their power and strength unto the beast.These shall (in the future) make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall (in the future) overcome them: for he is (i.e., at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture) Lord of lords, and King of kings: AND THEY THAT ARE (present tense) WITH HIM ARE CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL."

That's where we want to be, with the Lord before the 10 kings receive their kingdoms.

The called, chosen, and faithful saints are with Christ in Heaven before the Tribulation begins, because the ten kings have NOT RECEIVED THEIR KINGDOM YET. At the present time, the world has already been divided into 10 regions, but their leaders have not yet been appointed.

Rev 13:1,2 tells us about the beginning of the Tribulation. At that time, the 10 kings are crowned. It says," And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea (symbol of nations and people, Rev. 17:15), having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns TEN CROWNS, and upon his heads (all seven) THE NAME OF BLASPHEMY (PONTIFEX MAXIMUS). And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion (Babylon): and the dragon (Satan) gave him his power, and his seat (thronos, throne), and great authority."

At the marriage dinner in Mt. 22, we read verses 12-14. "And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? (like a Laodicean, Rev. 3:17) And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness (i.e., outside the door darkness); THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. FOR MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN."

Luke 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION (i.e., the Tribulation) WITH THE UNBELIEVERS."

Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion (the Tribulation) with the hypocrites (pretenders): THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

In Mt 8:11,12, Jesus said, "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE CAST OUT INTO OUTER DARKNESS; THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

Mt 25:30 says, "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into OUTER DARKNESS; THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

Luke 13:28 says, "THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."

> > (LUKE 21:)34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." And "all that is about to happen", I believe", speaks to his Day of Wrath, rather than the entire 7 years. Verse 35 doesn't give an exception for the Church.

Luke 21:25-36 (KJV) says, "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. AND WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, THEN LOOK UP, AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS; FOR YOUR REDEMPTION (apolutrosis, deliverance) DRAWETH NIGH. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree (Israel), and all the trees (i.e., nations); When they now shoot forth (i.e., the Six-Day War that started June 5, 1967), ye see and know of your own selves that summer (June 21) is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, KNOW YE THAT THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NIGH AT HAND. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY (the Pre-Trib Rapture) come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. WATCH YE THEREFORE, AND PRAY ALWAYS, THAT YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Rev. 3:8-12 says, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee (the Philadelphians for whom he had no words of condemnation) AN OPEN DOOR (the door of Heaven, Rev. 4:1), and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. BECAUSE THOU HAST KEPT THE WORD OF MY PATIENCE (hupomone, patient endurance), I ALSO WILL KEEP THEE FROM (ek, out of) THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION (pierasmos, trial), WHICH SHALL (future tense, i.e., after the Pre-Trib Rapture) COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH. BEHOLD, I COME QUICKLY (i.e., at the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 2:5): HOLD THAT FAST WHICH THOU HAST, THAT NO MAN TAKE THY CROWN. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is NEW JERUSALEM" (i.e., the heavenly city).

> > (Mt 24:)31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. > > Just look at Matthew 24:30-31! Contextually, this CANNOT be the pre-trib rapture. Contextually, it's silly to even try to say this is the pre-trib rapture. Contextually, this is Paul's last trumpet, the post-tribulation rapture! It fits the post-tribulation model perfectly. "Immediately after the distress of those days" = POST TRIBULATION!

> > You just read what Jesus said in Matthew 24. He only speaks of ONE RAPTURE, contextually placed at the end of the tribulation. He also gives warnings to believers on how the tribulation will be. This is a huge arrow in your case.

In Mt. 24:31, the saints that were taken to Heaven before the Tribulation are gathered to the general assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23). Note that none are called up from the Earth in this verse.

To get the rest of the story, we have to read Mark 13:27. It says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (i.e., in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (where the Bride of Christ has been located ever since the Pre-Trib Rapture).

Heb. 12:22-24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the GENERAL ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the JUDGE of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (i.e., made immortal), And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant".

There are 2 trumpet calls and 2 Raptures. The first is in I Thess. 4:16,17. The 2nd is in I Cor. 15:51,52.

Num 10:1-4 is the type. It says, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest USE THEM FOR THE CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, AND FOR THE JOURNEYING OF THE CAMPS. And when they shall blow with them (i.e., both), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And IF THEY BLOW BUT WITH ONE TRUMPET, THEN THE PRINCES, WHICH ARE HEADS OF THE THOUSANDS OF ISRAEL, SHALL GATHER THEMSELVES UNTO THEE."

These represent the 24 elders seen in Heaven in Rev. 4:4, the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles of Israel. John is one of the elders. All the elders are caught up at the first trumpet of God at the Pre-Trib Rapture. They are in Heaven when Jesus is given the seven-sealed Title Deed to the Earth. He doesn't open the first seal until Rev. 6. The saints that are there then are seen in Rev. 5:9, before the first seal is broken.

Rev 5:9,10 says of the First Rapture saints, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (or over) the earth."

The Tribulation saints of Rev. 7:14,15 are not said to be kings. It says, "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple". Agape

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