Pro and Con 1463

Posted 1-7-09

WOW! the Crab Pulsar looks like some kind of a flywheel

His reply, Re: Pre or Post Trib Rapture

Interesting. Why doesn't Jesus clearly define the pre-tribulation = rapture in his Olivet discourses? Why would He gloss over this = completely, given that this is such an incredibly significant event to = believers?

This is another issue I have with the pre-trib rapture, Why is the one = of the single greatest events in Biblical history shrouded in so much = inference? The Bible is such a great prophetic work, giving an = incredible 300 prophetic references to the first coming of Jesus in the = OT. It goes the extra mile at every step to make sure we get the = picture. Yet this huge event, the mysterious pre-trib rapture, just = isn't plainly declared. It's very suspicious. =20

And I'm a little nervous at how much pre-tribbers bend and contort = scripture to paint the pre-trib rapture. With that much freedom to read = into Scripture, we really don't have any room to complain when the = Church of Christ declares baptismal regeneration with Acts 2:38, when = the Roman Catholic church declares it is Peter's rock, or when the the = Mormon church says there are really three gods. There's scripture that = can be equally spun to support all kinds of heresy.

Marilyn, I have truly considered your position. And honestly I have to = say it is not strong. You've written volumes, yet have provided no = proof of a pre-trib rapture. And the burden of proof is on the = pre-tribber, because we both believe the Bible teaches a pre-wrath = rapture. I stand by the post-trib model because it is very neat, = requires virtually no inference and contortion, and I couldn't even = begin to prove a pre-trib rapture. If I could, I'd believe it. I can = prove a post-trib ratpure. I believe it is clearly taught, and it = solves all of the original problems I had with pre-trib. I submit that = if a Christian who was never taught the pre-trib position were to sit = down and read Biblical prophecy, he would never come to the pre-trib = position on his own study. Pre-trib is taught by man, and the Bible is = then interpreted to make it fit the pre-trib model. This is a dangerous = way to approach the Bible.

I just read a book by Roy Anderberg called "The Return of Christ". He = writes he steadfastly believed the pre-trib rapture for 30 years. But = he has now rejected the pre-tribulation rapture and has become a = post-tribber. His argument against the pre-trib position is pretty = strong, and comes from one like me who used to believe it.

Thanks for all your time. I've really enjoyed this exchange of ideas. = God bless you. For His Glory

My reply

Do you have eSword, and the KJV on your computer? If not, you can get it free from: www.e-sword.net
Mine has Strong's, Thayer's and Brown Driver Briggs on it too. I can look up the original words and their meanings in a flash. I have 12 Bibles on mine. You get the KJV in your first DL, then you can choose what others you want from a list.

Be sure your NIV translation of the Bible is not hindering your understanding. You found a place where the NIV translation is faulty, and it can skew your understanding. Below is that passage plus two more places where the NIV is faulty. And there are more.

Rev 17:12-14 (KJV) says, 12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which HAVE RECEIVED NO KINGDOM AS YET; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that ARE WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful."

"ARE WITH" is the Greek meta, "properly denoting accompaniment...proximity" (Strong's)
Rev. 17 (NIV) says, "12"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and WITH HIM WILL BE his called, chosen and faithful followers." John 9:35 (KJV) says, "Dost thou believe on the Son of GOD?" The Greek word is theos, God.

Yet, John 9:35 (NIV) says, "Do you believe in the Son of MAN?"

The only Bible in my eSword that says "Son of MAN" is the ISV. Now, you know why I seldom use the ISV or the NIV.

1Tim 3:16 (KJV) says, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, RECEIVED UP INTO GLORY."

1 Tim 3:16 (NIV) "Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: HE APPEARED IN A BODY, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was TAKEN UP IN GLORY."

> > Why doesn't Jesus clearly define the pre-tribulation rapture in his Olivet discourses? Why would He gloss over this completely, given that this is such an incredibly significant event to believers?

Paul was chosen to reveal this mystery. Rom 16:25,26 says, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith".

> > This is another issue I have with the pre-trib rapture, Why is the one of the single greatest events in Biblical history shrouded in so much inference? The Bible is such a great prophetic work, giving an incredible 300 prophetic references to the first coming of Jesus in the OT. It goes the extra mile at every step to make sure we get the picture. Yet this huge event, the mysterious pre-trib rapture, just isn't plainly declared. It's very suspicious.

FIRST TRUMP RAPTURE, SAINTS BECOME INCORRUPTIBLE

To me, it is plain. I Thess. 4:13-18 says, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP (harpazo, taken up by force, i.e., RAPTURED) TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thess. 4:13-18 (NIV) says, "13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP (HARPAZO, RAPTURED) TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words." LAST TRUMP RAPTURE, ALL SAINTS BECOME IMMORTAL

1Cor 15:51-53 (KJV) says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

TWO OTHER RAPTURES, PAUL TO THE 3RD HEAVEN, PHILIP TO AZOTUS

2Cor 12:2-4 (KJV) says, "I knew a man in Christ (it was Paul himself, but he didn't want to boast) above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one CAUGHT UP (HARPAZO, i.e., RAPTURED) TO THE THIRD HEAVEN (Mars, Jupiter, Saturn). And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was CAUGHT UP (HARPAZO, RAPTURED) into PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Acts 8:39,40 (KJV) says, "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY (HARPAZO, RAPTURED) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus".

> > I couldn't even begin to prove a pre-trib rapture. If I could, I'd believe it.

Well, maybe you could. What if someone asked you how the saints "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" got to Heaven in Rev. 5:9? They are there when Jesus takes the 7-sealed book. None of the seals are broken. Therefore, the Tribulation has not started. They sing a new song to Jesus, saying "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION."

What if someone asked you what Luke 21:36 means? Jesus said, "PRAY ALWAYS, THAT YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN."

1Cor 15:51,52 mentions the "LAST TRUMP." What if someone asked you, "when does the FIRST TRUMP SOUND?" What would you say?

1Cor 15:51-53 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

God doesn't make mistakes. If there is a last trump, there is a first trump. Who will hear it? And what are the benefits of hearing the first trump? Those are the Bride of Christ.

What does Roy Anderberg say?

I got the following in my email today. You might be interested.
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Hi Marilyn, I found this article interesting and wanted to share it with you.
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By Dr. Thomas Ice

One of the most often cited objections to pretribulationism is that it is a new teaching in church history, having only come on the scene in the 1830s. It is often argued that if the pre- rib Rapture were biblical, then it would have been taught earlier, and throughout church history. In the last decade, individuals have found a number of pre-1830 references to a pre- rib Rapture. Here is a summary of that evidence.

THE EARLY CHURCH

Since imminency is considered to be a crucial feature of pretribulationism by scholars such as John Walvoord,[1] it is significant that the Apostolic Fathers, though posttribulational, at the same time just as clearly taught the pretribulational feature of imminence. Since it was common in the early Church to hold contradictory positions without even an awareness of inconsistency, it would not be surprising to learn that their era supports both views. Larry Crutchfield notes, “This belief in the imminent return of Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly label the views of the earliest fathers, ‘imminent intratribulationism.’”[2]

Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all speak of imminency.[3] Furthermore, The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the pretribulational concept of escaping the Tribulation.

You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.[4]

Evidence of pretribulationism surfaces during the early medieval period in a sermon some attribute to Ephraem the Syrian, but is more likely the product of one scholar called Pseudo-Ephraem, entitled Sermon on The Last Times, The Antichrist, and The End of the World.[5] The sermon was written some time between the fourth and sixth century. The Rapture statement reads as follows:

Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? …For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

This statement makes evident a clear belief that all Christians will escape the Tribulation through a gathering to the Lord, and it is stated early in the sermon. How else can this be understood other than as pretribulational? The later Second Coming of Christ to the earth with the saints is mentioned at the end of the sermon.

THE MEDIEVAL CHURCH

By the fifth century A.D., the amillennialism of Origen and Augustine had won the day in the established Church–East and West. It is probable that some form of premillennialism persisted throughout the Middle Ages, but it existed primarily underground.

It is believed that sects like the Albigenses, Lombards, and the Waldenses were attracted to premillennialism, but little is known of the details of their beliefs since the Catholics destroyed their works when they were found. But there was at least one who held to some form of pretribulationism, namely one named Brother Dolcino in 1304.

Francis Gumerlock is the individual who advocates the Brother Dolcino Rapture find and said in his book: “The Dolcinites held to a pre-tribulation Rapture theory similar to that in modern dispensationalism.”[6] The reason Gumerlock believes that Brother Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren taught pretribulationism is found in the following statement:

Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants,and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time. But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope, and his preserved followers, will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of Christ to all, and will convert those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ.[7]

THE REFORMATION CHURCH

After more than 1,000 years of suppression, premillennialism began to be revived as a result of at least four factors. By the late 1500’s and the early 1600’s, premillennialism began to return as a factor within mainstream Protestantism. With the flowering of biblical interpretation during the late Reformation Period, premillennial interpreters began to abound throughout Protestantism, and so did the development of sub-issues like the Rapture.

Some began to speak of the Rapture. Paul Benware notes:

Peter Jurieu in his book Approaching Deliverance of the Church (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon. He spoke of a secret Rapture prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon. Philip Doddridge’s commentary on the New Testament (1738) and John Gill’s commentary on the New Testament (1748) both use the term rapture and speak of it as imminent. It is clear that these men believed that this coming will precede Christ’s descent to the earth and the time of judgment. The purpose was to preserve believers from the time of judgment. James Macknight (1763) and Thomas Scott (1792) taught that the righteous will be carried to heaven, where they will be secure until the time of judgment is over.[8]

Frank Marotta, a brethren researcher, believes that Thomas Collier in 1674 makes reference to a pretribulational Rapture, but rejects the view,[9] thus showing his awareness that such a view was being taught in the late 17th century. There is the interesting case of John Asgill, who wrote a book in 1700 about the possibility of translation (i.e. Rapture) without seeing death.[10]

Perhaps the clearest reference to a pretrib Rapture, if not the most developed system, before Darby comes from Baptist Morgan Edwards (founder of the Ivy League school, Brown University) who saw a distinct Rapture three and a half years before the start of the Millennium.[11] The discovery of Edwards, who wrote about his pretrib beliefs in 1744 and later published them in 1788, is hard to dismiss.[12] He taught the following:

II. The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more—, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ’s “appearing in the air” (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many “mansions in the father’s house” (John xiv. 2), and disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for “now the time is come that judgment must begin,” and that will be “at the house of God” (I Pet. iv. 17)...(p. 7; The spelling of all Edwards quotes have been modernized.)

CONCLUSION

I have heard from another scholar who is reading through many Latin manuscripts of previously unpublished documents that he has found a number of previously unknown pre-trib Rapture statements from pre-19th century Christendom. He is planning to publish his material in a few years. What these pre-Darby Rapture statements prove, if nothing else, is that indeed others did see the Rapture taught in Scripture similar to the way that pretribulationists in our own day teach. Thus, the argument that no one ever taught pretribulationism until J. N. Darby in 1830 is just not historically true and it is becoming increasingly clear with each passing year. Maranatha!

My reply to a post on Five Doves, Re: the Crucifixion Date

Re: Crin (5 Jan 2009)
"Star of Bethlehem, help on calculations?"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/jan2009/crin15.htm

> > (???Also is there a 10 day period of experiencing hardships just before the rapture because today would qualify for a trying hardship in my humble life... got hit in my car by a big ole truck sliding on ice, not hurt shaken up.)

I'm sure sorry about the ice, and a truck sliding into your car. Life's agravations sure try one's patience. We sure could get more signs before the Rapture, but I think they will be on the world stage.

To get NASA's 5000-year list of eclipses, Google Fred Espenak Lunar Eclipse (or Solar Eclipse).

I disagreed with your date for the Crucifixion, and wondered why you thought the date of a Lunar Eclipse fixed the date of the Crucifixion, so I went to the web site you suggested.
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/day/day.htm

The first thing that popped out at me was this: "Passover begins at twilight, the dividing line between Nisan 14 and 15". This is what happens when one thinks in terms of our days. That is when Nisan 14 ends. It begins at the dividing line between Nisan 13 and 14. That is primary to figuring out the correct date of the Crucifixion. After much study, I think Jesus died on the Preparation Day for the Passover, i.e., on Nisan 13 in 30 AD. The 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth were Thursday (day), Friday (night then day), Saturday (night then day) and Sunday (night).

The first Passover of Jesus' ministry was 27 AD, the 46th year of construction on Herod's Temple. Herod began in 19 BC. Research that and you will see that the Crucifixion had to be in 30 AD, the 4th Passover of Jesus' ministry.

"The work of rebuilding the Temple began in 19 BC which was the 18th year of King Herod’s reign." (Herod's Temple, The Construction of the Temple, http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/JEWISH_TEMPLEHerods_Temple00000006.htm

At the web site you referred to, the author also said, "the crucifixion must have occurred in a year when Nisan 14 happened to fall on a Friday, Preparation Day. That narrows things down considerably."

That throws him off right away. He is thinking in terms of the Preparation of the Sabbath, when it was on the Preparation of the Passover.

John 19:14 says, "IT WAS THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!" Therefore, the Crucifixion was on Nisan 13. The Passover was on Nisan 14.

At the site you suggested, the author said, "In 'Setting the Stage' we found that Jesus was born in 3/2 BC." I have done extensive research on this, and concluded that Jesus was born on the Feast of Trumpets in 5 BC (Sept. 4, 5 BC). Herod died around Passover in 4 BC, shortly after an eclipse on March 13.

"Gabriel said to count "[f]rom the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem." When was that? The prophet Nehemiah records such a decree, and he dates it as the twentieth year of Artaxerxes (25). On our calendar, that date is 444 BC (26). Counting 476 years from 444 BC, and remembering that there is no year numbered "zero" AD, we discover what Gabriel told Daniel: the Messiah would be cut off in 33 AD."

I think it is 30 AD. 483 (ordinary years) - 454 + 1 = 30 AD.

27 AD, year Jesus was baptized, was a Sabbatic Year for the Jews. The next year, 28 AD, the 1st year of Jesus' ministry, was a Jubilee Year. Near his birthday (Tishri 1), when he stood up in the synagogue at Nazareth and read Isa. 61:1, it was Tishri 10, the Day of Atonement in 27 AD, the right time to announce the coming Jubilee Year that started the following Nisan 1, in 28 AD.

Tying all the threads together, it is interesting to find out that another Jubilee Year will start on Nisan 1, 5776 (April 9, 2016) when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

Back to what is written on the web site you suggested.

"But what about the bloody moon?
" The Celestial Dirge


"The answer to that question fixes the date of the crucifixion with precision. Beyond reasonable doubt, in fact, because a "blood moon" has a specific meaning. In ancient literature, not only the Bible, it means a lunar eclipse. Why bloody? Because when the moon is in eclipse it is in the Earth's shadow. It receives no direct light from the sun, but is lit only by the dim light refracted and red-shifted by the Earth's atmosphere. The moon in eclipse does glow a dull red, as you know if you have seen it.

"This matters, because with Kepler's equations we can determine exactly when historical eclipses occurred. Perhaps it will not surprise you to learn that only one Passover lunar eclipse was visible from Jerusalem while Pilate was in office (30). It occurred on April 3, 33 AD, the Day of the Cross."

I can't imagine what connection there could be between the Crucifixion and a Blood Moon (total Lunar Eclipse). It was the Sun that was dark between noon and 3 PM, far too long to even be a Solar Eclipse. No eclipse lasts that long. That darkness was supernatural. There is no record given us in the Gospels that would indicate that a Blood Moon appeared the night of the Crucifixion. His best proof won't hold up to scrutiny.

"But there is more which they could not see. Kepler's equations indicate that the moon rose already in eclipse, already bloody, fulfilling Joel's vision."

What vision of Joel's? Joel 1:14, 15 says, "Sanctify ye a fast (the upcoming Day of Atonement), call a solemn assembly (on the Feast of Trumpets), gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD, Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD (i.e., the Day of God's Wrath) is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come." That Day of Destruction is the day of thick darkness. It is still future. If it comes when I think it will, on the Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14, 2015, it will be a day of a Partial Solar Eclipse. It happens on Sept. 13, but after 6 PM, so the Jewish Tishri 1 will have already begun.

The author of the web site continued. "Necessarily, this means that the eclipse commenced before moonrise. With software we can look below the horizon and see Earth's shadow begin the eclipse. When we do, we find that at 3 PM, as Jesus was breathing his last on the cross, the moon was going to blood. "The sky at Christ's birth can be viewed as a kind of visual poetry, with the new moon symbolically "birthed" at the foot of Virgo, the virgin. To complete that celestial poem, on the night of Jesus' death the moon had returned to the foot of the virgin. But now it was a full moon. A life fully lived, blotted out in blood."

Christ's birth WAS when the new crescent moon was under Virgo's feet on the Feast of Trumpets. THAT'S TRUE, but the Blood Moon after Jesus died is just a nice man-made sentiment that I don't believe. Agape

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