Pro and Con 1464

Posted 1-10-09

God provides good grooming experts

Mystery Roar from Faraway Space Detected

By Andrea Thompson, 7 Jan 09
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/090107-aas-loud-cosmic-noise.html

LONG BEACH, Calif. -- Space is typically thought of as a very quiet place. But one team of astronomers has found a strange cosmic noise that booms six times louder than expected.

The roar is from the distant cosmos. Nobody knows what causes it....

A team led by Kogut detected the signal with a balloon-borne instrument named ARCADE (Absolute Radiometer for Cosmology, Astrophysics, and Diffuse Emission).

In July 2006, the instrument was launched from NASA's Columbia Scientific Balloon Facility in Palestine, Texas, and reached an altitude of about 120,000 feet (36,500 meters), where the atmosphere thins into the vacuum of space.

ARCADE's mission was to search the sky for faint signs of heat from the first generation of stars, but instead they heard a roar from the distant reaches of the universe....

The signal is measured to be six times brighter than the combined emission of all known radio sources in the universe.

Incoming e-mail, Re: wars and rumors of wars

awesome times to be alive !You must feel very blessed to hold such a spot in the end -times.

Can you correlate between "wars and rumors of wars" with "nation will rise against nation" and "sudden destruction"?

Will the sudden destruction happens, is this when nation rises against nation and then the rapture? Or, does the rapture happen as the wars and rumors of wars is taking place?

I get confused.

My reply

I am glad to live in the end times. It is exciting to see prophecy being fulfilled in our days, and to have a chance to be caught up to Heaven in the Rapture.

> > Can you correlate between "wars and rumors of wars" with "nation will rise against nation" and "sudden destruction"?

In Mt 24:3, "as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (lit., the consummation of the age). Jesus' Olivet Discourse followed. In it, he traced things that would happen from their days to the end of the Tribulation.

Mt 24:7 seems to characterize the whole time. It says, "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." We have seen these things increase greatly in our times.

After that, Jesus zeros in on THE END, which is the Great Tribulation, the last half of the 7 years.

In Mt 24:14, Jesus said, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall THE END come."The word translated END is telos. It means the point aimed at as a limit, the conclusion. Therefore verses 15 through 31 take place in the Great Tribulation.

Mt 24:15,16 happens Mid-Trib. It says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (i.e., Petra).The False Prophet will sit in the Temple "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4).

Mt 24:29 takes place on the Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Wrath, at the end of the Shortened Tribulation. It says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken".

Joel 1:14,15 and 2:1-3 tells us more about this day. Joel 1:14,15 says, "Sanctify ye a fast (the Day of Atonement will be in 10 days), call a solemn assembly (it is Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets), gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD. Alas for the day! for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand, and AS A DESTRUCTION FROM THE ALMIGHTY SHALL IT COME."

This will also be the DAY OF GOD'S WRATH, the SUDDEN DESTRUCTION that is brought on by Gog's army attacking Israel.

Of that day, Eze 38:18-20 says, "it shall come to pass AT THE SAME TIME when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel (the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea); So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake (it's the worldwide earthquake) at my presence (paniym, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man will be seen in the sky), and the mountains (2 asteroids, Rev. 8:8-11) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and EVERY WALL SHALL FALL to the ground."

All cities will be in shambles the day the towers fall. Isa 30:25 says, "And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of THE GREAT SLAUGHTER, WHEN THE TOWERS FALL." Not only will one asteroid hit the Mediterranean Sea, the other one will destroy Babylon, Iraq. The globe will be turned upside down.

Isa 24:1 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it UPSIDE DOWN, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof." Can you imagine what will happen to the seas when the globe is turned upside down? That is the day of SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. Because of the worldwide earthquake and the seawater dashing up the hills and down the valleys, the dead will lay around the Earth..I'm sure glad we won't be here for that.

Isa. 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock? (i.e., an asteroid called Wormwood in Rev. 8:11), a piece of his planet Rahab that was split apart). Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. HE WILL SURELY VIOLENTLY TURN AND TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL INTO A LARGE COUNTRY (Iraq, not tiny Israel): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."

> > (when) the sudden destruction happens, is this when nation rises against nation and then the rapture? Or, does the rapture happen as the wars and rumors of wars is taking place?

There are 2 Raptures, Pre-Trib (FIRST TRUMP, I Thess. 4:16,17) and Pre-Wrath ("LAST TRUMP", I Cor. 15:51,52). It is relatively peaceful at the First-Trump Rapture, but there are wars and rumors of war. Worldwide disaster looms near at the Last-Trump Rapture. The Day of God's Wrath will have begun, but the 2 asteroids of Rev. 8:8-11 will not hit until the Tribulation saints are caught up. They are not to suffer the wrath of God.

The Bride of Christ, i.e., the wise virgins with plenty of oil of the Holy Spirit, will be caught up when the first trump of God sounds before the Tribulation starts. Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

The foolish virgins without enough oil of the Holy Spirit, the 144,000 of Israel, and a great multitude that cannot be numbered will be caught up on the Day of God's Wrath, but before the Wrath of God causes the sudden destruction (Rev. 7:1-14).. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: NIV

I don't believe the differences between the NIV and the KJV version are significant enough to impact interpretation of major events. Pls try to answer my question of ... why did Jesus not consider the pre-tribulation rapture important enough to declare in his Olivet discourses. He CLEARLY declares a post-tribulation rapture, clearly stating when this would occur, 'after the distress of those days."

Let me quickly show you this. I think this is a reasonable position.

40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Strong argument: 'last day' is the literal last day, the Day of the Lord, the day of His coming, immediately before the 1000 year reign. Weak argument: 'last day' is not specifically a literal last day, but a period of time which two 'raising ups' or raptures occur (which Jesus does not separate).

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changedó 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Strong argument: The 'last trumpet' refers to the last of the series of trumpets stated prominently in Revelation. The last trumpet of Revelations is the seventh trumpet, to which both Revelation and Paul refer to as a 'mystery'. The Seventh trumpet also points to Jesus' coming in Revelation where He has 'begun to reign", and which occurs simultaneously with the rapture all throughout the Bible. See Psalms 18 again. There is no differentiating angelic trumpets vs God's trumpets. One set of trumpets.

Weak argument: Paul's 'last trumpet' occurs before the first of the trumpet calls in Revelation. There are two trumpets, angelic trumpets and God's trumpets. Talk about a confusing set-up for a Bible reader!

Strong argument: 1 Thess 4:15-17, 1 Cor 15:51-52, Luke 21:27-28, Matt 24:30-31, Mark 13:28-27 all refer to the same event, a rapture of the saints occuring after the distress of the tribulation, at the trump/last trumpet/seventh trumpet.

Weak argument; Some of the above verses speak to different raptures in the timeline, despite the tremendous similarities in the verbiage. You have to figure out where they separate. Make sure you have 12 versions of the Bible.

Let's take a closer look at 1 Thess 4:15-17

I Thess. 4:13-18 (NIV) says, "13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP (HARPAZO, RAPTURED) TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words."

All of this is speaking to the post-tribulation rapture. We who are 'still alive' and 'left till the coming of the Lord' implies we have just undergone a very turbulent period, the tribulation I submit, when many believers will perish at the hands of the man of lawlessness. Then the Lord comes down like in Psalms 18 on the last day, simply resurrects the dead in Christ first with that seventh trumpet call which the angel blows at God's order (hence it can still be God's trumpet). Then moments or minutes later, but definitely on the same day, we who are left will be raptured to meet the Lord in the air, just like Jesus openly declares in His Olivet discourse. That's when we can lift our heads and know that our redemption is near. Simple, elegant.

Just to quickly answer your points. Your view of Rev 17:12-14 is a classic pre-trib inference. I submit there are souls of Christians with Christ right now, and there has been no tribulation yet. I also submit that there are 24 elders at the throne right now, not in resurrection bodies but in the spirit. Why not? All others verses you point to rely heavily on inference. You are just working too hard to find pre-rapture significance in these verses which just isn't there.

The post-tribulation is simple, elegant, and ties it all to one event rather than multiple confusing events. It does not infer, but is based on a simple reading of the text. I submit that a Christian reading the Bible for the first time, not having been taught eschatology, will quickly come to a post-tribulation position on his own study. Thanks. Agape

My reply

> > Pls try to answer my question of ... why did Jesus not consider the pre-tribulation rapture important enough to declare in his Olivet discourses. He CLEARLY declares a post-tribulation rapture, clearly stating when this would occur, 'after the distress of those days."

Paul was chosen to reveal the MYSTERY of the Rapture. However, there are hints in the Gospels.

In Mt. 24:30,31, Jesus said, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of A TRUMPET (i.e., the "last trump"), and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." When did these get caught up to Heaven? They are already there when it is time for the "LAST TRUMP" Rapture. It is clear to me that they were caught up in the FIRST TRUMP Rapture.

Mark 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (i.e., the last trump Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those that were caught up at the first trump, before the Tribulation.) 2Tim 2:15 says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly DIVIDING the word of truth."

In Mark 4:11, Jesus said, "Unto you it is given to know the MYSTERY of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, ALL THESE THINGS ARE DONE IN PARABLES".

Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

In Romans 11:25, Paul said, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this MYSTERY, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN."

In 1 Cor 15:51-53, Paul said, "Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." This scripture will be fulfilled on the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 6:17; 7:14; 8:1f).

There is a first day and a "last day," a first trump and a "last trump". Only the Bride of Christ will be caught up on the first day. All the rest will be caught up on the last day.

The first trump of God is in I Thess. 4:16,17. It says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." The first trump is before the Tribulation starts. The last trump is on the Day of God's Wrath.

In Eph 3:8-10, Paul said, "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the MYSTERY, WHICH FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD HATH BEEN HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,"

> > The 'last trumpet' refers to the last of the series of trumpets stated prominently in Revelation. The last trumpet of Revelations is the seventh trumpet, to which both Revelation and Paul refer to as a 'mystery'. The Seventh trumpet also points to Jesus' coming in Revelation where He has 'begun to reign", and which occurs simultaneously with the rapture all throughout the Bible. See Psalms 18 again. There is no differentiating angelic trumpets vs God's trumpets. One set of trumpets.

The Bible tells us of two kinds of trumpets, ram's horn and silver. The Raptures are prefigured by two silver trumpets.

Num 10:1-4 says, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee TWO TRUMPETS OF SILVER; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (plural, i.e., blow with them both), ALL (as in I Cor. 15:51,52) the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. AND IF THEY BLOW BUT WITH ONE TRUMPET, THEN THE PRINCES, WHICH ARE HEADS OF THE THOUSANDS OF ISRAEL, SHALL GATHER THEMSELVES UNTO THEE." The princes stand for the elders of Rev. 4:4. They are the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles of Israel that participate in the Rapture of Rev. 4:1.

> > There is no differentiating angelic trumpets vs God's trumpets. One set of trumpets.

Why then, are there only two trumpets of God and seven trumpets sounded by angels? Good things happen to believers when the two trumpets of God sound at the two Raptures. Bad things happen when the angels sound the 7 trumpets of judgment that will fall on unbelievers.

If the 7 trumpet judgments are to hit believers, that would be God's wrath hitting believers. That's impossible. The Raptures are to pull believers out of here before the 7 trumpet judgments hit the unbelievers left on Earth after the Raptures.

> > Paul's 'last trumpet' occurs before the first of the trumpet calls in Revelation.

That's correct. The Day of God's Wrath comes in Rev. 6:19. The Last Trump Rapture comes in Rev. 7. Then the 7 angels are given the 7 trumpets of judgment in Rev. 8. That is the natural progression of these events.

> > 1 Thess 4:15-17, 1 Cor 15:51-52, Luke 21:27-28, Matt 24:30-31, Mark 13:28-27 all refer to the same event, a rapture of the saints occuring after the distress of the tribulation, at the trump/last trumpet/seventh trumpet.

Thank God, the 7th trumpet judgment will NOT strike believers.

1 Thess 4:16-18 is the first "trumpet of God." It says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS."

Your take on this is not comforting. You would have believers receiving the wrath of God. My take on this is comforting. We will not only escape the wrath of God, we will escape the whole Tribulation. Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, THAT YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

1Th 5:4-9 promises, "BUT YE, BRETHREN (believers), ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: WE ARE NOT OF THE NIGHT, NOR OF DARKNESS (i.e., the Tribulation). Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But LET US, WHO ARE OF THE DAY, be sober, PUTTING ON the breastplate of faith and love; and FOR AN HELMET, THE HOPE OF SALVATION. FOR GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ".

1 Cor 15:51-52 is the "last trump" of God.

Luke 21:27-28 shows that when these things BEGIN to come to pass, the Rapture is nigh. Verses 25-28 say, "And THERE SHALL BE SIGNS IN THE SUN, AND IN THE MOON, AND IN THE STARS; AND UPON THE EARTH DISTRESS OF NATIONS, WITH PERPLEXITY; THE SEA AND THE WAVES ROARING; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

At the present time, there have been signs in the heavens, remember when the String of Pearls hit Jupiter? There have been great tsunamis, when the sea and waves roared in the Indian Ocean. About 230,000 people were killed. Verse 28 lets us know that when these things begin to come to pass, the Pre-Trib Rapture is nigh. That's where we stand today.

That's why Titus 2:13 says, "Looking for THAT BLESSED HOPE, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ". Our blessed hope is that we will be caught up before the Tribulation. I'm sorry that you don't have this hope. You think that you will have to suffer the wrath of God. What a brain-rattling thought that is.

Matt 24:30-31 says, "And then shall appear THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then shall ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other."

All on the Earth will mourn. I would rather be in the heavenly group that will be gathered to the general assembly on that day.

Heb 12:22-24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the GENERAL ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, AND TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT (i.e., by becoming immortal, I Cor. 15:51,52), And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Mark 13:27,28 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (i.e., to catch up the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (where the Bride of Christ resides that was caught up to heaven before the Tribulation began).

Re: I Thess. 4:13-18.

> > All of this is speaking to the post-tribulation rapture. We who are 'still alive' and 'left till the coming of the Lord' implies we have just undergone a very turbulent period, the tribulation I submit, when many believers will perish at the hands of the man of lawlessness. Then the Lord comes down like in Psalms 18 on the last day, simply resurrects the dead in Christ first with that seventh trumpet call which the angel blows at God's order (hence it can still be God's trumpet). Then moments or minutes later, but definitely on the same day, we who are left will be raptured to meet the Lord in the air, just like Jesus openly declares in His Olivet discourse. That's when we can lift our heads and know that our redemption is near. Simple, elegant.

Consider that both the First Trump Rapture and the Last Trump Rapture take place before the 7 angels are given 7 trumpets. They can't be the same trumpets.

First, Rev 6:17 says, "the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Then Rev. 7:17 says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." The Last Trump Rapture has already taken place.

After that, Rev. 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS."

> > You are just working too hard to find pre-rapture significance in these verses which just isn't there.

It isn't hard. It just pops out at me. I see it clearly.

> > I submit that a Christian reading the Bible for the first time, not having been taught eschatology, will quickly come to a post-tribulation position on his own study.

I didn't. Agape

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