Pro and Con 1475

Posted 3-13-09

The picture of Saturn above was the Astronomy Picture of the Day March 4, 2009.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090304.html

On Feb. 23, 2009, day of it's closest approach, Comet Lulin was near Saturn and Regulus in Leo.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090227.html

My reply to a post on the Five Dove's site, Re: James Norman (23 Feb 2009) We ALL go in the rapture, I think. Here's why."

> > I Corinthians 13:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

a.) Note first that he multiple times says ALL -- we will ALL be changed.

I Cor 13:51,52 applies to the Last Trump Rapture, the Rapture of the Tribulation saints.

I Thess. 4:16-18 applies to the First Trump Rapture, when the dead in Christ will be raised incorruptible, but not immortal. Only after the Last Trump Rapture, when the whole Body of Christ is complete, will be ALL be made immortal in the twinkling of an eye.

1 Cor 15:42 says, "the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption."

I Cor 15:51-53 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

> > when the Scripture says "pray that you would be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are to pass" (Luke 21:36) it sure sounds like it might be the Rapture you are to pray that you would be worthy enough to be in.

> > But I have several responses as to why probably not.

As for me, I am praying that I will be found worthy at the first Rapture. That's the only way I can escape ALL these things. At the 2nd Rapture, the Tribulation saints will only escape God's Wrath. They will be caught up after the Day of God's Wrath has begun, but before God's Wrath strikes Earth. Check out Rev. 6:17; 7:14; and 8:1f. That shows the sequence of events just before the 7 angels are given 7 trumpets of judgment. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: March 19th GRB Marks a 7 Day Training for the 8th Day Nissan 1st

When I read this about March 19th, the whole significance hit me like a ton of bricks. The Lord marked 080319 with a GRB, so those looking would find the answer quickly. The Hebrew Calender reports that March 19th began a training period for new priests to serve God and begin worship services. All preparing us for the 8th day, Nissan 1st!

23rd o f Adar, when Moses was instructed to begin a 7-day "training period."

During the week o f Adar 23-29, the Mishkan was erected each morning and dismantled each evening; Moses served as the High Priest and initiated Aaron and his f our sons into the priesthood. Then, on the "eighth day" -- the 1st of Nissan -- the Mishkan was "permanently" assembled (that is, put up to stand until the Divine command would come to journey on), Aaron and his sons assumed the priesthood, and the divine presence came to dwell in the Mishkan.

Parshah Terumah (detailed description o f Mishkan with commentary)

My reply

Thanks. This is the first time I have heard of their putting up and taking down the Tabernacle to practice. At the following URL, it said it was "Based on the teachings of the Lubavitcher Rebbe Courtesy of MeaningfulLife.com

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/2868/jewish/The-Eighth-Dimension.htm Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: DATE OF DEPARTURE FROM EGYPT

You said
What a type that would be. It looks like the Israelites may have crossed the Red Sea on Nisan 21. The Rapture could be on Nisan 21, 5769 (April 15, 2009). ''

However if you read Numbers 33:3-9 it shows each day what happened from the date of Nisan 15. There seems to be no gaps. They left on the 15th of Nisan and a careful reading of the text shows they went through the midst of the sea, vs. 7-8 , which would be the night portion of Nisan 18.......very likely Saturday night........and came up on the other side on Sunday morning also Nisan 18.

My reply

Numbers 33 gives the places where they camped. It doesn't say how long it took them to travel from one stop to another.

Verses 1-10 said, "These are the journeys of the children of Israel, which went forth out of the land of Egypt with their armies under the hand of Moses and Aaron. And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out. And THEY DEPARTED FROM RAMESES IN THE FIRST MONTH, ON THE FIFTEENTH DAY of the first month; on the morrow after the passover (i.e., on the Feast of Unleavened Bread) the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians. For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments. And the children of Israel removed from Rameses, and pitched in Succoth. And they departed from Succoth, and pitched in Etham, which is in the edge of the wilderness. And they removed from Etham, and turned again unto Pihahiroth, which is before Baalzephon: and they pitched before Migdol. And they departed from before Pihahiroth, and PASSED THROUGH THE MIDST OF THE SEA into the wilderness (midbar, desert), and went THREE DAYS JOURNEY IN THE WILDERNESS OF ETHAM, and pitched in Marah. And they removed from Marah, and came unto Elim: and in Elim were twelve fountains of water, and threescore and ten palm trees; and they pitched there. And they removed from Elim, and ENCAMPED BY THE RED SEA."

Notice that it took them three days to go up the other coast of the Red Sea after crossing it into the desert of Etham, sometimes called the desert of Shur, because the Way (road) to Shur went across the desert to the Negev. There were two roads across that desert. The Lord took them by the inland route rather than the fortified Way of the Philistines along the coast.

I found a good map at: http://www.genesisfiles.com/JourneyBegins.htm

There, Tom Pickett said, "Referring to the the satellite image below, notice the radar like range circles. Rameses is the center point. Each range circle represents 10 miles. This would be the distance the Israelites could be expected to travel in a single day....THE FIRST PROBLEM THAT WE FACE IS SUCCOTH IS MORE THAN A ONE DAY JOURNEY FROM RAMESES."

Tom said, "Referring to the previous map, it is about 25 miles from Rameses to Succoth."

The Israelites borrowed lots of items from the Egyptians before they left Rameses, so they could have left there late in the day.

After camping by the Red Sea, the Israelites went east along the Way to Shur to Mt. Sinai and later on to Kadesh-barnea. I went to:
http://www.genesisfiles.com/Maps/Kadeshbarnea/Kadeshbarnea_Fact_sht.htm

There, Tom said, "The place that Hagar fled to (Beer-lahai-roi) is between Kadesh-barnea and Bered ; on the WAY TO SHUR (Gen 16:7,14)...It was from Kadesh-barnea that Moses sent the spies into Canaan."

His web site is very interesting. You can click on city names and a map will come up showing where they are located. Agape

My reply to a post on Five Doves, Re: Bruce Warner (9 March 2009) "TO: Marilyn Agee RE: LAST DAY"

> > I agree with you when you say, "I think the pre-trib Rapture has to happen before next Pentecost May 29, 2009." Then you state, "My best guess is Nisan 21, which is April 15, 2009. What other day before Pentecost would be called the 'last day'?" You could be right, but what about Ascension Day May 19, 2009 which is the anniversary of Jesus 'last day' on earth when He 'ascended up' to Heaven?

If we are the barley harvest, as in Ruth, we have two chances after Firstfruits, the beginning of barley harvest, the 7th day of Unleavened Bread and Ascension Day. Pentecost begins the wheat harvest.

There is to be a Holy Convocation on the 7th day of Unleavened Bread. It is marked for a good reason, maybe the Rapture.

If not on the 7th day of Unleavened Bread, Ascension Day is likely. Maybe Jesus will come for us on the day he ascended. He will come in like manner as he left, but it seems to fit the Second Advent, because he will meet us in the clouds at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Since the miraculous crossing of the Red Sea was on Nisan 21, it makes a great type of the miraculous Rapture. Also, we are promised a city, New Jerusalem, and Jericho fell on Nisan 21. They kept Passover, then marched around the city 7 days. Then the wall fell down and they ascended up to take the city. That is a good type too.

Joshua 6:5 says, "And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and THE PEOPLE SHALL ASCEND UP every man straight before him."

At the Rapture, there will be a shout and the sound of the trumpet of God (I Thess. 4:16,17). Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: SCRIPTURE TELLS US THE DATE IN 2009 THAT ''HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE"

Notice the relationship among the following three 2009 calendar dates in reference to John 4:35-36

Rosh Hashanah is September 19th, Pentecost is May 29th, and Ascension Day is May 19th

Exactly "Four months" preceding Rosh Hashanah September 19th is Ascension Day May 19th (ie. they are four months apart this year):

John 4:35-36
"Do you not say, Four months more and then the harvest? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! they are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws His wages, even NOW HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE."

Can it be any more plain than this? Come Lord Jesus!

My reply

> > Exactly "Four months" preceding Rosh Hashanah September 19th is Ascension Day May 19th (ie. they are four months apart this year)

However, May 19, 2009 is Iyar 25. The barley harvest that started on Firstfruits is in full swing.

In John 4:35, Jesus said, "Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are WHITE already to harvest."

In Israel, the crop that shows white at harvest is barley, as in the picture below.

The four months could be Teveth, Shebat, Adar and Nisan. They follow Hannukah.

Boaz, a type of Christ the kinsman redeemer, had been winnowing barley the night Ruth, type of the Bride of Christ, lay at his feet. It seems like the Bride of Christ might go home with Christ during the barley harvest. If we are to be caught up during Nisan, the 7th day of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 21, seems likely.

Ruth 1:22 says, "And Naomi returned, and Ruth the Moabitess, her daughter-in-law with her, who returned from the fields of Moab. And they came to Bethlehem at the beginning of barley harvest." It began on Firstfruits.

The barley can't be harvested before Firstfruits, so the 7th day of Unleavened Bread and Ascension Day take place during barley harvest. The wheat harvest starts at Pentecost and lasts all summer. It looks golden when harvested, not white.

Both the Exodus through the Red Sea and the fall of Jericho took place on Nisan 21. Both were stupendous miracles, just as the Rapture will be. The march from Rameses to the Red Sea started on Nisan 15, the first day of Unleavened Bread.

I think Nisan 21 (April 15, 2009) has a better chance of being the day of the Rapture than Ascension Day, Iyar 25, 5769 (May 19, 2009). However, both seem possible.

Probably the next day after barley harvest began, Ruth gleaned in the field of Boaz. Ruth 2:1-3 says, "Naomi had a kinsman of her husband, a mighty man of the family of Elimelech. And his name was Boaz. And Ruth of Moab said to Naomi, Let me now go to the field and glean among the ears of grain after him in whose sight I shall find favor. And she said to her, Go, my daughter." And she went. And she came and gleaned in the field after the reapers."

Things happened fast. On the first day of her gleaning, Ruth 2:4-0 says, "Boaz came from Bethlehem, and said to the reapers, JEHOVAH BE WITH YOU. And they answered him, Jehovah bless you. And Boaz said to his young man who had been set over the reapers, Whose is this young woman? And the young man who had been set over the reapers replied and said, She is a young woman of Moab who came with Naomi from the fields of Moab. And she said, Please let me glean, and I shall gather among the sheaves after the reapers. And she came and has remained since morning, even until now. She sat in the house a little while. And Boaz said to Ruth, Do you not hear, my daughter? Do not go to glean another field, and also do not pass through this. And you shall stay close to my young women. Your eyes shall be on the field which they shall reap, and you shall go after them."

Ruth 2:17 says, "And she gleaned in the field until the evening, and beat out that which she had gleaned. And it was about an ephah of barley."
Ruth 3:2-4 says, "And now, is not Boaz of our kindred, with whose young women you have been? Behold, he is winnowing the threshing floor of barley tonight. And you shall bathe, and anoint yourself, and put your garments on you, and go down to the threshing floor. Do not let yourself be known to the man until he has finished eating and drinking. And it shall be, when he lies down, you shall know the place where he lies down. And you shall go in and uncover his feet, and lie down. And he will tell you that which you are to do."

Ruth did as she was told, and Boaz consulted with a closer kinsman redeemer the next day. That man refused to take Ruth as wife, so Boaz took her as his wife.

Doesn't that sound like Nisan 21? It does to me. It was not many days after Firstfruits, when barley harvest began. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS. St. Mathew 16:3; 24:34; St. Mark 13:30; St. Luke 21:32

Praise The Lord To The Saints Of The Most High God.

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. St. John 9:4

Let us be reminded, of the written account's of the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as noted in the Subject above. "St. Mathew 24:34" Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, til all these things be fulfilled. Now the very next verse, if one would read it, verse, 35. Jesus said: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Saints we can, without doubt, bank on the words of our Lord and Savior. The previous verses in the 24th Chapter of St. Mathew gives you and I some very sound clues, as to where we are, concerning the signs of the time.

I believe, with every God given cell in this vessel of clay, that "we" are the generation spoken of by our Lord and Savior, and the clock to focus on, is Israel. I believe the timeline concerning "This generation" is in the book of Psalms 90-10, and as I watch the unfolding event's taking place in this world today, I will certainly, with the help of the Lord, be expecting and watching for his soon return.

Please if I may, "stress" to each and everyone of us, time is at "hand" I don't believe, after trying to run from this calling which has been place on me, that God shoot's blanks, "without fail," He will hit his target!

In the book of "Isaiah 66:8-9," Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? "Iyar 5, 5708" (May 14, 1948) for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

If we begin from May 14, 1948, and count ahead, I believe the generation, "Psalms 90-10" Christ was referring to, "which shall not pass, til all these things be fulfilled." consist of 70 years multiplied by 365.2422 days, brings us to "Iyar 28, 5778" (May 13, 2018).

Now bare in mind, before we get to "Iyar 28, 5778" (May 13, 2018) the end of this generation. Have we ask the Lord, concerning our end? Psalms 39-4; 90-10; Job 24:1. This is not the timing of the catching away of the "church," but a hint to the wise is sufficient, just keep in mind, the "church" would have been caught up to meet Him in the air, at least, 2,595 days ahead of the last day of this generation, "Nisan 2, 5771" (April 6, 2011) but, we must remember the words spoken by our Lord, "this generation shall not pass til all these things be fulfilled." regarding that statement from our Lord, the catching away of the "church" will certainly take place prior to (April 6, 2011).

In my conclusion, dearly beloved, "if" the scale of a generation concerning the Subject: is 70 years in length, "beginning with the rebirth of the nation of Israel," multiplied on the scale of 365.2422=25,567 days approximately in length.

From May 14, 1948 til June 7, 1967 a total of 6,964 days, "midst of six day war." St. Luke 21:24.

From May 14, 1948 til April 10, 2009 a total of 22,247 days, "Firstfruits" (Nisan 16, 5769). Leviticus 23:15; 16; Hebrews 10:25?????? Saints, are you praying?

This day is certainly a "watch day" for me! What do I see? 22,247 days divided by 7 days equal 3,178 complete weeks with the remaining of the 8th day, "Leviticus 23:15. Prime time for the bride of Christ?

Could this be IT? I see the First and the Last! From Aleph to Tav (22) Isaiah 26:19-21; 44:6; Revelation 1:8.

I also see the union of the Groom and Bride in the midst (2) Acts 20:28.

47=TIME 20+9+13+5.

My reply

> > I believe the timeline concerning "This generation" is in the book of Psalms 90-10

That is an average lifetime, not a generation, Check out Mt. 1:17. A generation can be 48.33 years (2030 years divided by 42 is 48.33). Look at Mt. 24:32-34. One generation from when Israel grew leaves in the Six Day War is 2015.33. I think the Feast of Trumpets on Tishri 1, 5776, Sept. 14, 2015, will be the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the Day of God's Wrath. The Six-Day War was in Iyar. The extra 4 months before Tishri 1 even work out (Sivan, Tamuz, Av and Elul).

Subtract the 2300-day shortened Tribulation of Dan. 8:13,14 using inclusive reckoning because it is a block of time, and you get May 29, 2009, PENTECOST.

I think the Pre-Trib Rapture has to happen before next Pentecost. My best guess is Nisan 21, the last day of Unleavened Bread, April 15, 2009. Jesus said several times that someone would be raised up on the "last day".

In John 6:39, he said, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the LAST DAY." What other day before Pentecost would be called the last day?

Jericho's wall fell on Nisan 21, and the people were to "ASCEND UP."

Joshua 6:5 says, "And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ASCEND UP every man straight before him." At the Pre-Trib Rapture, there will be a shout and the trumpet of God. That's a good type of the Rapture.

However, the capstone for me was when I found out that the Exodus through the Red Sea was on Nisan 21. To me, it looks like OUR EXODUS will be on Nisan 21, 5769 (April 15, 2009). I'm no prophet, but it sure looks likely. We will know soon.

In Luke 21:36, Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." At that point, we are wise virgins waiting on our Bridegroom. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: May 29 2009 PENTECOST calculation

I was very interested in your analysis using Daniel 8:13,14 where the start and end of the 2300 day period provide very useful anchor points in time.

Your generation span calculation may be awry because the start of the 2300 day period is the time that sacrifices are taken away by the man of sin; refer Daniel 8:12,13,14 and 12:11

12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

If the start of the 2300 day period by your calculation is May 29, 2009 then that only leaves 3 months from now for sacrifices to be started and then taken away by the man of sin which does not seem realistic.

Please see my letter "Great tribulation at least 5 years away" which addresses a similar topic. Regards

Richard Cumming (7 March 2009)
"Great tribulation at least 5 years away"

Jesus prophesied great tribulation in Matthew 24:21.

When does it start?

Least case scenario:

1 year - sacrifices start (guessing) 1/2 year - sacrifices taken away (guessing) (Daniel 12:11) 3 1/2 years - abomination set up (Daniel 12:11) and great tribulation starts (Matthew 24:15,21)

5 years to the start depending on guesstimates.

Daniel 12
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Matthew 24
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I invite critique but not pre/mid/end trib rapture argument.
Richard

My reply

> > Your generation span calculation may be awry because the start of the 2300 day period is the time that sacrifices are taken away by the man of sin; refer Daniel 8:12,13,14 and 12:11

I see Dan 8:13,14 differently. The 2300 days start when the sacrificing starts. Sacrificing can't be taken away unless it starts. It is not being done at the present time.

I think Rev. 11 shows that Moses and Elijah will keep the sacrificing going 1260 days. We are not told to what the 1290 days in Dan. 12:11 apply. Since the 1290 days is in a different chapter, it may not apply to Dan 8:13,14. Whatever it applies to, the 1290 days are to be counted from Mid-Trib. I think they are to show us that the last year is a Leap Year with a 13th month. The year that precedes the Jubilee Year (probably 5776, the year of the Second Advent) has to be a Sabbatic Year, and 5775 is a Sabbatic Year. It divides by 7 equally.

Dan 8:13,14 says, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (i.e., the first 1260 days of the Tribulation, probably starting on Pentecost, May 29, 2009), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot (1040 days)? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days (1260 + 1040 = 2300); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" (probably on the Day of God's Wrath, the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 14, 2015).

The sacrificing can start whenever Moses and Elijah build the altar, so any time after the Pre-Trib Rapture should be ok. The altar can be built in one day. The stones are not to be shaped by any tool. Israel probably has these stones ready now.

There are 2300 days between Pentecost in 2009 and the Feast of Trumpets in 2015, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning, because 2300 days is a block of time.

It was the same way at the Six-Day War. It started June 5 and ended June 10. We would have subtracted 5 from 10 and called it the 5 day war, but to the Jews, it was the Six--Day War. In inclusive reckoning, the first day is counted. In running time, it is not, for as someone told me, a week would get shorter. Agape

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