Pro and Con 1482

Posted 4-23-09

Hubble Photographs Cosmic Fountain

21 April 2009...the Hubble Space Telescope captured an image of a peculiar group of interacting galaxies that contains a "cosmic fountain" of stars, gas and dust...

The new image of a trio of galaxies, called Arp 194, looks as if one of the galaxies has sprung a leak. The bright blue streamer seen in the image is really a stretched spiral arm full of newborn blue stars. This stellar activity typically happens when two galaxies interact and gravitationally tug at each other....

Arp 194, located in the constellation of CEPHEUS, resides approximately 600 million light-years away from Earth.

My reply

Cepheus represents Christ, the great king, a man of the cloth, a religious leader. His coming is near.

My reply to Pastor Riley's post on Five Doves site

F.M. Riley (15 Apr 2009)
"Pentecost Revisited"

> > In view of what I have set forth in this study, is it then just “coincidence” that in John 4 the Lord met the Gentile woman at Jacob’s well precisely on Pentecost? Since Pentecost is not mentioned in that chapter, how do we know it was Pentecost? We know this to be so because in “a year of perfect order” it is exactly “four months” from Pentecost to Rosh HaShanah. Now look at the statement of the Lord Jesus in John 4:35. Did I mention that 2009 is “a year of perfect order”? > > For those of our readers who are not familiar with this term, “year of perfect order,” it means that every day on the Jewish calendar in a given year falls on exactly the same day that it fell on during the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is then more than “coincidence” that it is exactly four months to the day from Pentecost to Rosh HaShanah this year. Count the days for yourself, and as the Lord said, “be not faithless, but believing,” John 20:27.

According to the Jewish Calendar, from Nisan 1 to Tishri 1 is the same number of days every year.

Nisan always has 30 days. Iyar always has 29 days. Sivan always has 30 days. Tamuz always has 29 days. Av always has 30 days. Elul always has 29 days.

Therefore, from Pentecost to Trumpets is the same number of days every year. Agape

May 29th and 31st 2009

Marilyn, May 29th 2009 is jamm packed with hearty spiritual food that makes me hungry for the Lord Jesus! Here I've copied Jewish Calender comments for both 5/29/09 and 5/31/09 either, date works for me Sister!

We might want to consider the 31st because the Lord said He would come as a thief in the night! Agape
"Friday, May 29, 2009
6 Sivan, 5769
Shavuot 1st Day

Giving of the Torah (1313 BCE)
On the 6th Sivan of the year 2448 from creation (1313 BCE), seven weeks after the Exodus, G-d revealed Himself on Mount Sinai. The entire people of Israel (600,000 heads of households and their families), as well as the souls of all future generations of Jews, heard G-d declare the first two of the Ten Commandments and witnessed G-d's communication of the other eight through Moses. Following the revelation, Moses ascended the mountain for 40 days, to receive the remainder of the Torah from G-d.

At Sinai, G-d rescinded the "decree" and "divide" (gezeirah) that had been in force since the 2nd day of creation separating the spiritual and the physical into two hermetic worlds; from this point on, "the higher realms could descend into the lower realms, and the lower could ascend to the higher." Thus was born the "mitzvah" -- a physical deed that, by virtue of the fact that it is commanded by G-d, brings G-dliness into the physical world.

Passing of King David (837 BCE)
David, a descendent of Judah the son of Jacob as well as of Ruth, a Moabite convert to Judaism, was anointed King of Israel by Samuel in 878 BCE. All future legitimate kings of Israel were David's descendents, as will be Moshiach (the messiah), who will "restore the kingdom of David to its glory of old."

David fought many wars, defeating Israel's enemies and securing and expanding its borders. He conquered Jerusalem, purchased the Temple Mount from its Yebusite owner, and prepared the foundation for the Holy Temple (which was built by his son, King Solomon). David served as the head of the Sanhedrin and the foremost Torah authority of his generation; he is also the "sweet singer of Israel" who composed the Book of Psalms that for 28 centuries has embodied the joys, sorrows and yearnings of the Jewish people.

King David passed away on the 6th of Sivan of the year 837 BCE, age 70.

Cologne Jews Martyred (1096)
During the first crusades (see "Today in Jewish History" for Iyar 8) the Jews of Cologne, Germany choose to be killed rather than to convert to Christianity. This was the case for many of the Jews during the first crusades of the Jews being given the chose of being killed or to be baptized. Most of those who converted continued to practice Judaism in secrecy and, one year later, were permitted to return to Judaism openly by Henry IV.

Passing of R. Israel Baal Shem Tov (1760)
In 1734, Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov ("BeSHT", 1698-1760), who up until that time had lived as a hidden tzaddik, began to publicly disseminate his teachings. While adding nothing "new" to Judaism, he re-emphasized truths and doctrines that had been buried under the hardships of exile: the immense love that G-d has for every Jew, the cosmic significance of every mitzvah a person performs, the divine meaningfulness that resides in every blade of grass, in every event, and in every thought in the universe. He spoke to the downtrodden masses and to the aloof scholars, giving meaning to their existence, and thus joy, and thus life. Many disciples came to imbibe the "inner soul" of Torah from him, and the new movement came to be known as "Chassidism."

Rabbi Israel passed away on the 6th of Sivan of 1760, and was succeeded (one year later, on the first anniversary of his passing) by his disciple, Rabbi DovBer of Mezeritch.

Laws and Customs
Torah Reading: Ten Commandments
The Torah reading for the 1st day of Shavuot is from Exodus 19-20, which recounts the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai (see "Today in Jewish History") and includes the "Ten Commandments" proclaimed at Sinai that encapsulate the entire Torah.

Children in Shul
The Lubavitcher Rebbe urged that all children -- including infants --should be brought to the synagogue on the 1st day of Shavuot to hear the reading of the Ten Commandments in re-enactment of the Giving of the Torah at Sinai. Our sages relate that when G-d came to give the Torah to the people of Israel, He asked for a guarantee that that they will not forsake it. "The heaven and the earth shall be our guarantors," said the Jews, but G-d replied that "they will not last forever." "Our fathers will guarantee it," said the people, but G-d said that "they are busy." It was only when we promised that "our children will guarantee it" that G-d agreed, "These are excellent guarantors."

Book of Ruth
It is the custom in many communities to read the biblical Book of Ruth, which tells the story of Ruth, a Moabite princess--and ancestress of King David--who converted to Judaism.

Text of Book of Ruth and its connection to Shavuot How Does One Convert to Judaism?...

Sunday, May 31, 2009
8 Sivan, 5769
Today in Jewish History
Rabbi Escapes Crusaders (1147)
Rabbi Yaakov ben Meir Tam, known as the "Rabbenu Tam," was one of Rashi's illustrious grandsons. During the Second Crusade, on the second day of the holiday of Shavuot, the Crusaders entered his hometown of Rameru, and pillaged and massacred many Jews.

They broke into Rabbenu Tam's house, plundered all his wealth, and seriously wounded Rabbenu Tam. On the next day, the 8th of Sivan, Rabbenu Tam escaped Rameru and the clutches of the Crusaders.

Two years later he completed his famous treatise on Jewish ritual and ethics, Sefer Hayashar."

My reply

Thanks for the great pictures.

I can show you why I pick May 29, 2009 (Sivan 6, 5769) for Pentecost.

Dan. 8:13,14 shows that the shortened Tribulation lasts 2300 days. It says, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (i.e., the first half of the Tribulation), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot (during the shortened Great Tribulation)? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." This gives us 1260 days for the first half of the Tribulation and 1040 days for the shortened Great Tribulation.

There are 2300 days (counted by inclusive reckoning because it is a block of time) between May 29, 2009 and Sept. 14, 2015 (Tishri 1, 5776) the Feast of Trumpets that seems to be the Day of God's Wrath. May 31 doesn't fit. Agape

My reply to a post on the Five Doves site

Re: Bruce Warner (23 Apr 2009)

> > The 'Feast of Harvest/Pentecost' firstfruits wave offering, by the priest, of 'two loaves of BARLEY BREAD baked with leaven' on the day after the Sabbath has NOT YET BEEN FULFILLED. One loaf of Barley bread baked with leaven represents the 'dead in Christ', and the second loaf of Barley bread baked with leaven represents the 'alive in Christ'.

> > When this prophecy IS FULFILLED: The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the 'dead in Christ' shall rise first. Then we which are 'alive in Christ' and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I think you meant wheat bread at Pentecost instead of "barley bread". Pentecost is also called the feast of harvest and the feast of weeks. Ex 34:22 says, "And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of WHEAT HARVEST, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end."

The barley harvest begins on the Feast of Firstfruits. The wheat harvest begins on Pentecost.


It could represent Jews and Gentiles, as many think. It could represent two fulfillings of Pentecost, in 30 AD and probably in 2009.

However, there are two gatherings of the Body of Christ, at the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Could the beginning of wheat harvest represent the Pre-Trib Rapture and the ending of wheat harvest represent the Pre-Wrath Rapture?

Mt 3:12 says, "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor (i.e., on the Day of God's Wrath), and gather his WHEAT into the garner (at the Pre-Wrath Rapture); but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." If wheat can represent Tribulation saints, wouldn't the two loaves represent the wise and foolish virgins? The wise are caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture, and the foolish are caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Mt 13:30 says, "Let both (wheat and tares) grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest (Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets) I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn" (at the Pre-Wrath Rapture).

In John 4:35, Jesus said, "Say not ye, There are yet FOUR MONTHS, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white (leukos, from luke, light) already to harvest." Could the harvest start on Pentecost and end on the Feast of Trumpets? The four months could be Sivan, Tamuz, Av and Elul. This fits the actual harvest of wheat. It starts on Pentecost and goes on all during the following summer.

John 4:35 (ISV) says, "You say, don't you, 'In four more months the harvest will be here?' Look, I tell you, open your eyes and observe that the fields are READY for harvesting!"

Couldn't the beginning of wheat harvest be on Pentecost and the end of wheat harvest be on the Feast of Trumpets? Couldn't the first loaf represent the Pre-Trib Rapture on Pentecost and the second loaf represent the Pre-Wrath Rapture that would follow at the end of harvest?

Sivan 6, 5769 will be May 29, 2009. The number 29 means departure. I hope May 29 will be our day of departure.

> > I believe that the 'Feast of Harvest/Pentecost' has only been 'partially fulfilled by the Holy Spirit' indwelling in the Church on earth at the 'BEGINNING of the Church Age'. I also believe that the 'complete fulfillment' will happen when the Church on earth is 'raptured to Heaven' 'by the Lord Himself' at the 'END of the Church Age' on Pentecost 5769.

On this, we can agree. Agape

A post on the Five Doves site

Ken Schortgen (13 Apr 2009) "The 144,000"

Although I have off and on read many of the letters written on this board, this is the first time I have chosen to write one.

To others I speak to, and on other boards that have Christian/End Times discussion, the one thing they seem to miss is Purpose… is there a Purpose for the Rapture and Wedding Ceremony beyond simply believers being taken to ‘hide’ in His pavilion? (Psalm 27:5)

I noticed in one of the recent letters, coupled with what most I have talked to believe, is that the 144,000 will come from Jews who are here on the earth. But if you look closely at Rev 14, I feel there is undisputed evidence in scripture that the 144,000 arent chosen from men ON the earth, but rather, from men OF the earth.

Rev 14:1

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The Lamb (Christ) standing with the 144,000 here on Mount Sion… it cannot be a place that resides in the Physical Plane of the earth, since if that were the case, Christ would have fulfilled a returning short of the Second Coming. In the ancient Apocryphal book of Adam of Eve, the early creation of God resided on a Holy Mountain from Adam to Enoch/Noah, when the mountain was cutoff from man for the duration of man’s time on the earth.

2nd Book of Adam and Eve, Chapter 19

8 And Jared continued to teach his children eighty years; but after that they began to transgress the commandments he had given them, and to do many things without his counsel. They began to go down from the Holy Mountain one after another, and to mix with the children of Cain, in foul fellowships.

9 Now the reason for which the children of Jared went down the Holy Mountain, is this, that we will now reveal unto you.

Chapter 22

5 He then said to his son, "O my son, I know that God intends to bring the waters of the Flood upon the earth, and to destroy our creation.

6 "And ye are the last rulers over this people on this mountain; for I know that not one will be left you to beget children on this holy mountain; neither shall any one of you rule over the children of his people; neither shall any great company be left of you, on this mountain."

10 Altogether, not one of our fathers or of their children, remained on that holy mountain, except those three, Methuselah, Lamech, and Noah. For all the rest went down from the mountain and fell into sin with the children of Cain. Therefore were they forbidden that mountain, and none remained on it but those three men.

Next in Rev 14, we see the 144,000 spoken of in verse 3:

Rev 14:3

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Redeemed FROM the earth. Redemption is a process that cannot take place ON the earth, as if you look at the works of the Apostles, they speak of Redemption as a future effect for man after their lives are done.

Rom 8:23

And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Eph 1:14

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So even though through the blood of Christ we are sealed away with the promise of Redemption at a future appointed time, it is not something that occurs, or takes place when we are saved and transformed by the Holy Spirit.

However, a Redemption of 144,000 men DOES take place in the End Times, and it isn’t ON the earth, its from men From the earth?

So… who are these men?

We know they are Jews who will preach the Gospel (The Kingdom) to all the nations, and will be untouchable. This means Redemption for them will be to be cleansed of Adam’s sin (mortality) and walk on the earth and among the people in Adam’s original, glorified body.

I believe they are the righteous Jews who died before Christ, and reside in Abraham’s Bosom (Paradise). These are the ‘dead who shall rise first’, and that MUST be done early in the Tribulation period so they can do their duty and preach the Gospel to all the nations.

Rev 14:4

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Redeemed FROM men, not defiled by women (their redeemed bodies were not born of mortal women, or carry Adam’s sin) and are the first fruits. (See Rom 8:23 above as a parallel).

First Fruits… meaning offspring. THIS is the offspring in the Wedding chamber between the Bride and the Bridegroom… the process of redemption for the righteous Jews who died before Christ came.

As we pass the feast of First fruits here, I cannot imagine that the time for the Bride to be taken to the pavilion (wedding chamber) can be delayed too much more. Earthly events leading to Gog/Magog and the One world government/economic system are in place… waiting for an event to force their implementation. We have earthquakes in diverse places, and the volcanoes, as well as the sun, moon, and stars are groaning of this time now.

Anyway, I wanted to share this Wisdom the Lord showed me here, and hope that it can be of help in your studies and confirmations from the Holy Spirit.

My reply

> > Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

> > I believe they are the righteous Jews who died before Christ, and reside in Abraham’s Bosom (Paradise). These are the ‘dead who shall rise first’, and that MUST be done early in the Tribulation period so they can do their duty and preach the Gospel to all the nations.

> > Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


1Cor 15:22,23 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming".

I think the 144,000 Israelites will be caught up to Heaven in the second Rapture, the "last trump" Rapture that will take place right after the Day of God's Wrath arrives on the Feast of Trumpets that will end the shortened Tribulation.


Dan. 12:1-3 says, "And at that time (i.e., when the False Prophet shall be deposed; Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE (the time of Jacob's trouble, the Day of God's Wrath), SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE (the 144,000 Israelites) shall be delivered (raptured), every one that shall be found written in the book."

THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE IS ONE LITERAL DAY LIKE NO OTHER Jer 30:7 says, "Alas! for THAT DAY is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: IT IS EVEN THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it."


Psa 27:5 says, "For IN THE TIME OF TROUBLE (i.e., the Day of God's Wrath, a day like no other) HE SHALL HIDE ME IN HIS PAVILION: IN THE SECRET OF HIS TABERNACLE SHALL HE HIDE ME, HE SHALL SET ME UP UPON A ROCK (a planet, i.e., Saturn, the third heaven)."

To me, the main secret of his tabernacle was that the Holy of Holies (the third cube, whose length, breadth and height were equal) represented Heaven, a sphere that would fit inside a box whose length, breadth and height were equal.


I think the altar, made of Earth's uncut stones, represented Earth, the place of Jesus' sacrifice. The two cubes of the Holy Place represented Mars and Jupiter. The single cube, the Holy of Holies, represented Saturn, the third heaven, Paradise, WHERE PAUL WENT.

2Cor 12:2-4 says, "I knew a man in Christ (Paul himself, he didn't want to boast) above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to THE THIRD HEAVEN. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Josephus indicated that the 7 lamps on the lampstand in the Temple represented the planets, including the Sun. The western lamp that was to always be kept burning represented the Sun. The second lamp represented Mercury, The third lamp represented Venus. The fourth lamp, the middle one, represented Earth. The fifth lamp represented Mars. The sixth lamp represented Jupiter. The 7th lamp represents Saturn, the outermost of the naked-eye planets. (Ant. III. VI. 7; Wars. V. V. 5)

Zech 3:9,10 (LXX) says, "behold, I bring forth my servant The Branch. For as for the stone which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes" (orbs, rings), i.e., Saturn has 7 rings.

In Eze. 28:13, the entire 10 original planets are represented symbolically by gemstones. The Lord said to Satan, "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering (i.e., surroundings), the sardius (1, Mercury), topaz (2, Venus), and the diamond (3, Earth), the beryl (4, Mars), the onyx (5. Rahab, now our Asteroid Belt), and the jasper (6, Jupiter), the sapphire (7, Saturn), the emerald (8, Uranus), and the carbuncle (9, Neptune), and gold" (10, Pluto).

Now that we know that Saturn is symbolized by a sapphire, we can understand Eze. 1:26-28 easily. It says, "And above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads (farther out in space than the orbits of the terrestrial planets Mercury, Venus, Earth [1:15] and Mars) was the likeness of A THRONE, as (symbolic language) the appearance of a sapphire stone (sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanskrit sani, Saturn, and priya, dear): and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man (Jesus, the God/man, v. 1) above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about (i.e., the 7 rings). As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD." Heaven has a halo.

> > Earthly events leading to Gog/Magog and the One world government/economic system are in place… waiting for an event to force their implementation.

I agree. The Christians, the salt of the Earth, are probably hindering things now. After they are taken away at the first trump of God, the Tribulation will come.

The Gog and Magog War is on the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the Shortened Great Tribulation. That is when the worldwide earthquake will take place. Every wall shall fall, and the cities of Earth will become shambles in the day the towers fall.

The 144,000 Israelites, plus a great multitude that can't be numbered will be caught up to Heaven at the "last trump" just before God's Wrath falls on Earth. At that time, 2 pieces of Satan's asteroid, Wormwood, will impact Earth (Rev. 8:8-11). The first will hit the Mediterranean Sea. The second will destroy Babylon III.

Satan's planet, Rahab, was split apart, probably because of his sin. After that, he made his home on a fragment of Rahab, called Wormwood in Rev. 8:10,11.

Isa 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon III) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possedded False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock? (Wormwood) Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. HE WILL SURELY VIOLENTLY TURN AND TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL INTO A LARGE COUNTRY (Iraq, at Babylon, not tiny Israel): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down." Agape

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