Pro and Con 1486

Posted 5-18-09

Incoming e-mail, Re: Quick qestion

From: The Refiner's Fire, March 18, 2009
biblicaltruth613@therefinersfire.org

I just read some of your prophecies and was just wondering, are you Torah observant (keeping the Seventh Day Sabbath and the Biblical Feasts, etc.)?

Shali
The Refiner's Fire (therefinersfire.org)
Revealing Biblical Truth in a world of myth and fiction
We teach that "Mercy and Grace" do NOT invalidate Torah!

See Carmen Welker’s “Should Christians be Torah Observant?” and “Rags to Rabbi” for easy-to-read explanations about YHWH, His Messiah and His Torah: http://betorahobservant.com/. For the best New Testament translation, check out the Aramaic English New Testament: http://www.aent.org/

My reply, Re: Quick qestion

March 20, 2009
No. I'm a baptist. However, I study about them a lot. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: RE: Quick qestion

From: The Refiner's Fire
March 22, 2009

Dear sister,

I'm glad you love God, but I would suggest that since you are AWARE of Torah commands, you should really check into why we should do more than just be aware. Please read some of what's on my page:
http://therefinersfire.org/challenging_christianity.htm

I was "saved" in a Baptist church at age 44, back in 1995, but I realized right away that there was something missing in the church. I couldn't seem to get answers to questions like, "If Jesus was Torah observant and He came to do the Father's will and NOT "abolish" but fulfill (which didn't mean 'put an end to') then shouldn't WE follow his example?" And why did Paul say, "Does that mean we negate the Law (Torah)? May it never be! On the contrary, we ESTABLISH the Law!"....If it's established, then why aren't Christians obeying even the easiest of commands which is the keep the Seventh Day Sabbath? Yahweh never said to change His Sabbath; as a matter of fact, it is a SIGN between Him and those who love Him FOREVER:

Exodus 31: 16 'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.' 17" It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed."

As "grafted in to the Olive Tree (Israel)" Christians MUST be Torah observant! God even said so, over and and over again:

Numbers 15: 13 "'Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 14 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.'"

Please re-read the above in case you missed it: Any Torah-less non-Jew/Hebrew/Israelite who does not yet believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is an "alien"/foreigner. However, if they do wish to accept Him, then they are to do exactly as those who are already belong to Him!

"Living among" means not necessarily physically, but rather, it refers to all those who have accepted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They MUST be Torah observant, just like the Houses of Israel and Judah were with whom God made His New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32)!

Yeshua (His REAL Name which means "Yahweh is Salvation") showed us how to worship and obey His Father. Plus, He has so far only fulfilled the first FOUR of the SEVEN Biblical Feasts, which means there are three more to go - yet "the church' has totally ignored the Feasts and come up with their own "holy days" of Christmas and Easter, both of which are steeped in paganism.

Marilyn, you have a huge ministry, and could reach many for GOD's TRUTH....I pray you will check into this!
Shalom,
Shali
The Refiner's Fire (therefinersfire.org)
Revealing Biblical Truth in a world of myth and fiction
We teach that "Mercy and Grace" do NOT invalidate Torah!

My reply, Re: Quick qestion

Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009

> > "Does that mean we negate the Law (Torah)? May it never be! On the contrary, we ESTABLISH the Law!"....If it's established, then why aren't Christians obeying even the easiest of commands which is the keep the Seventh Day Sabbath? Yahweh never said to change His Sabbath; as a matter of fact, it is a SIGN between Him and those who love Him FOREVER

The Sabbath is a sign between the Lord and Israel.

Re: grace
John 1:17 says, "the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

Gal 2:21 says, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Gal 5:4 says, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Eph 2:4-10 says, "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

I'm excited. Dan. 12:10 says, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

Josephus, in "Wars of the Jews" VI. V. 3 said (emphasis mine), "Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.

"This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night (i.e., MIDNIGHT). Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

"Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call PENTECOST, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, THEY FELT A QUAKING, AND HEARD A GREAT NOISE, AND AFTER THAT THEY HEARD A SOUND AS OF A GREAT MULTITUDE, SAYING, "LET US REMOVE HENCE."

To me, the quaking suggests the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the great noise suggests the trumpet of God at the First Trump Rapture. I'm thrilled that this happened on Pentecost.

The Pope is to arrive on May 11 and stay in Israel 5 days. President Peres is pushing to give the Christian Churches to him.

Babylon, Iraq, is to open to tourists June 1st, soon after Pentecost. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Quick qestion

Sent: May 07, 2009

Dear Marilyn,

It is clear that NOTHING I said sank in, and you didn't even bother to read the things I suggested. For some reason, Christians are blinded to the fact that God never said He had separate rules for His natural and adopted children. Would YOU have different rules for your natural and adopted kids?

As a matter of fact, He couldn't have been more clear about OBEDIENCE to His Torah, yet Christians have the audacity to think God condones the fact that they have changed not only the NAME of our Savior, but also the dates of His birth, death and resurrection and chosen to IGNORE His "forever" commands come up with their own man-made "holy days" of Christmas and Easter, both of which are steeped in paganism. Please think about that.

Jesus Christ came NOT to usurp or abolish His Father or His Father's DIVINE instructions to man; He came to proclaim the Kingdom of God, not to change it in any way. As a matter of fact, He never ever taught about His birth, death or resurrection or that the Kingdom of God was going to be abolished through His (Yeshua's) death....

As a believer in Christ YOU are part of Israel (which includes Gentiles from "the nations" just as in Moses' day - Numbers 15:13-16). Same God, same rules. He didn't change His rules for "Christians" - as a matter of fact, He warned His People over and over again NOT to adopt the customs of "the nations." Christianity and Catholicism are straight from "the nations.

Do you know who the Antichrist is? It's those who dare to change God's Appointed Times - which is exactly what Christians have done by ignoring His SEVENTH DAY Sabbath and the Biblical Feasts....

Daniel 7: 25 He will speak words against the Most High and try to exhaust the holy ones of the Most High. He will attempt to alter the seasons and the law; and [the holy ones] will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.

I pray that these words will sink in because it won't be long before we will stand before our Maker and He will ask "Did you obey ME?" Pushing pagan doctrines, keeping the wrong Sabbath and celebrating the man-made Christmas and Easter won't cut it on Judgment Day....

If you don't wish to be considered "lukewarm" and spit out of Yeshua's mouth, I highly suggest you check into what I said. I didn't make this stuff up; as a matter of fact, I am nobody. But God has commissioned me to proclaim HIS Truth, and that is what I'm doing. And so, having been told these truths, at least on Judgment Day YOU won't be able to say, "I didn't know".....

Shali

The Refiner's Fire (therefinersfire.org)
Revealing Biblical Truth in a world of myth and fiction
We teach that "Mercy and Grace" do NOT invalidate Torah!
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Yeshua did. (1 John 2:3-6)

My reply, Re: Quick qestion

May 17, 2009

Mt 22:37-40 says, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

The law was only in effect until John the Baptist.

Luke 16:16 says, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

Mt 11:13 says, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John." At that turning point, Jesus came and fulfilled the law. Jesus was the only person that could fulfil the law. He fulfilled it so we don't have try to do the impossible. The law was to show us what sin is.

In Mt 5:17-20, Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Think about what Mt 7:12 says: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for THIS IS THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS."

There were 2300 things OT Israel was supposed to obey. Because the Temple is not there, about 1600 cannot be obeyed today. If you are lost because of not obeying these 1600, what recourse do you have? Isa 64:6 says, "But we are ALL as an unclean thing, and ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Without Jesus, you would be sunk. So what can you add to what Jesus has done for you? Nothing concerning Salvation.

What we can work for is rewards, not Salvation. 1Co 3:11-13 says, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

What sort of work will be rewarded at the Judgment seat of Christ? Telling people that we must obey the law? No. Jesus set us free from the law that could never save us. It was to show us what sin is. And John 8:36 says, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

What sort of things should we be doing? Below, Peter tells us "ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN UNTO LIFE AND GODLINESS", and he didn't mention the law.

2Peter 1:1-11 says, "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN UNTO LIFE AND GODLINESS, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious PROMISES: THAT BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE (i.e., be filled with the Holy Spirit), having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith VIRTUE; and to virtue KNOWLEDGE; And to knowledge TEMPERANCE; and to temperance PATIENCE; and to patience GODLINESS; And to godliness BROTHERLY KINDNESS; and to brotherly kindness CHARITY (AGAPE LOVE). FOR IF THESE THINGS BE IN YOU, AND ABOUND, THEY MAKE YOU THAT YE SHALL NEITHER BE BARREN NOR UNFRUITFUL in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind (like the Laodiceans), and cannot see afar off (i.e., Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins (i.e., when he accepted Christ). Wherefore the rather, brethren (believers), GIVE DILIGENCE TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE: FOR IF YE DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Confessing our sins to God is very important. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." When we are cleansed from all unrighteousness, we are filled with the Holy Spirit. Then our good deeds will count for us.

> > Daniel 7: 25 He will speak words against the Most High and try to exhaust the holy ones of the Most High. He will attempt to alter the seasons and the law; and [the holy ones] will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.

> > I pray that these words will sink in because it won't be long before we will stand before our Maker and He will ask "Did you obey ME?" Pushing pagan doctrines, keeping the wrong Sabbath and celebrating the man-made Christmas and Easter won't cut it on Judgment Day.

I plan to be in Heaven when the False Prophet rules on Earth. It won't matter to me what he alters. I am not pushing pagan doctrines. Christmas is about when Jesus was conceived. He was born on Tishri 1. He was crucified on Thursday, Nisan 13, 3790, the preparation of the Passover (Friday, Nisan 14; Lev. 23:4,5), was in the heart of the Earth on Saturday (Nisan 15, the Feast of Unleavened Bread) and resurrected on Sunday, Nisan 16, Firstfruits. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Quick qestion

My gosh, I'm always amazed by the blindness christians love to hang onto.

> > Christmas is about when Jesus was conceived. He was born on Tishri 1. He was crucified on Thursday, Nisan 13, 3790,

Yep, and every other pagan god was either conceived or born in December.....You don't even have a good grasp of your OWN, PAGAN "holidays", Marilyn! You've clearly got your own theology going! If Christmas is about His CONCEPTION, then HOW COME ALL THE OTHER CHRISTIANS TALK ABOUT OUR SAVIOR's BIRTH on Christmas, complete with manger scenes???? Even the Christmas SONGS that permeate every mall and on Christmas are about His birth.....

Crucified on Thursday? You truly are off in left field. I'd tell you to read my study, but I already know you won't bother - but here it is, anyway - my study (done by me, a Jew who doesn't view the Bible through the false Greek mindset):
http://therefinersfire.org/resurrection1.htm

I'm really sorry to see that you are so willfully blinded, Marilyn. You're just another Christian who doesn't mind the fact that Christians have changed the Name of our Savior along with the dates of His birth, death and resurrection, and pretends that's okay to perpetrate lies upon the world. Heck, God LOVES it when people change His times and laws, right? You can't even get the Name of our Savior right, or the fact that you're supposed to keep the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH - and what's more, you don't care, as evidenced by the fact that you've never directly responded to ANYTHING I've said; all you've done is to keep sending me those old tired, worn-out writings of Paul that every Christian has misunderstood nor never bothered to question exactly why he said we do NOT negate Torah - "MAY IT NEVER BE!" but rather we ESTABLISH it....

There's no sense in further "dialogue" since all you do is keep sending your misunderstood scriptures from the writings of Paul, upon whom YOU and all other christianns have based your entire belief. What YESHUA said and did doesn't matter. PAUL, the mere MAN, is much more important than God. You're not interested in God's TRUTH. Why should you be, when you've clearly got your own thing going....

Like all other Christians you have decided YOUR "god" came to abolish His Father and His Father's DIVINE TEACHINGS without which we would have NO blueprint for moral, holy living. Je-zeus was a "new god" born 2,000 years ago (since when can GOD BE BORN??????) And what's really sad is, no matter what proof is set before you, you INSIST on remaining blind to BIBLICAL Truth. So be it. You can explain yourself to YHWH on Judgment Day because I've done my duty.

No need to respond anymore because any further correspondence from you will be routed directly into my DELETE files; you will simply be added to my website's list of false teachers....

The Refiner's Fire (therefinersfire.org)
Revealing Biblical Truth in a world of myth and fiction
We teach that "Mercy and Grace" do NOT invalidate Torah!
Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Yeshua did. (1 John 2:3-6)

(The following is from her website.)

"Saved by Grace" is only PART of the formula!"

http://therefinersfire.org/keep_my_commandments.htm

CLEARLY EVERYONE MUST KEEP THESE TWO GREATEST COMMANDMENTS FOR SALVATION; but we must keep them according to the Word of YHWH, not the traditions of men!...

Repentance is an extremely important concept to understand and apply to our lives if we are planning to enter into eternal life. Repentance means "turn to YHWH," which also MEANS ONE MUST TURN FROM SIN AND KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. Getting back to the question about eternal life, here's Y'shua's answer: "Now if you desire to enter into life, keep the Commandments."(Matthew 19:17) The answer applies to everyone who has ever drawn a breath. But the fellow wanted a quick fix and asked, "Which ones?" So Y'shua began listing Commandments from Torah (including the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20) and the fellow replied, "All these things I have obeyed them from my youth. What do I lack?" Now, how many have actually kept all the Ten Commandments from their youth, in their original context? Imagine being there yourself; could you respond as this fellow did? Y'SHUA IS CLEARLY TEACHING THAT THE FIRST PREREQUISITE FOR SALVATION IS KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS!...

So, if you've heard religious people teach that we "don't have to keep the Commandments" of YHWH FOR SALVATION, then ask yourself this: Do those who teach that we don't have to keep the Commandments keep the Commandments themselves? Probably not - because they want you to join with them in what they do....

In order to truly please our Creator, we must place our trust in Mashiyach Y'shua who teaches: "If you desire to enter into life, keep the Commandments." On this same theme Rav Shaul teaches: "When we were dead in our sins, gave us life with the Mashiyach and rescued us by His grace...." Dead in our sins means that we stop breaking the Commandments. The word rescued here literally means "saved."

My comments

Salvation is simple.

Mt 11:13 says, "all the prophets and the law prophesied UNTIL JOHN."

Luke 16:16 says, "The law and the prophets were UNTIL JOHN: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

Rom 10:9,10 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. FOR WITH THE HEART MAN BELIEVETH UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS; AND WITH THE MOUTH CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION."

John 3:16-18 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

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