Pro and Con 1492

Posted 5-22-09

A post on the Five Doves site

Re: Kathleen Norton (27 Apr 2009)
"the timing of the tribulation"

Dear Mr. Tng, I came up with the same date for the tribulation as the site by Marilyn Agee. I saw that Israel was born in 1948 and I believe it is that generation that will not pass away until they see The LORD come. 1948 plus 70 years (an average life time according to The Bible) equals 1918 minus 7 years equals 2011 for the beginning of the tribulation. This is the same year mentioned for the start of the trib in Miss Agees page. The page was submitted in the Spring of 2008 and said the pretrib period???? would start in the fall of 2008. Was she ever on to something. Look at all that came forth in the fall of 2008. Amazing. I, though, think that the rapture may happen any time before or up to the 2011 beginning of the last 7 years. I am not sure about the 10 year time frame, but am about the 7 year time frame. Love in Christ Jesus, Kathleen Norton

My reply

What Kathleen Norton wrote about my work is confusing to me. I don't remember ever thinking the Tribulation would start in 2011. I would like to review the dates for the Tribulation as I see them.

The 70th week of Dan 9:27 probably started Oct. 21, 2008. It should end on Tishri 1, 5776, the Feast of Trumpets, Sept 14, 2015, the Day of God's Wrath. Suggesting the beginning of sorrows, the Dow was down 777.68 on Sept. 29, 2008. That suggested the Jewish year of 5776 or 5777, which I think will turn out to be important.

The Tribulation is to be shortened by 220 days or no flesh would be saved. I think the shortened 2300-day Tribulation of Dan. 8:13,14 will start with the Pre-Trib Rapture on May 29, 2009, Pentecost, Sivan 6, 5769, and end with the Pre-Wrath Rapture and then God's wrath on Sept. 14, 2015, the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5776.

A Jubilee Year must follow a Sabbatic Year. 5775 is Sabbatic. Therefore, 5776 can be a Jubilee Year.

I expect the Jubilee Year to be announced on the Day of Atonement, Tishri 10, 5776, Sept. 23, 2015, and begin on the following Nisan 1, 5776, April 9, 2016, day of the Second Advent.

5776 is a leap year, therefore, there are 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent, as in Eze. 39:12,13.

Fifty years from the Six-Day War in 5727 is 5777. The Jubilee Year would start Nisan 1, 5776 and end Nisan 1, 5777. That wraps it up in a nice neat package. Agape

My reply to a post on the Five Doves site, Re: Mickey McNew (7 May 2009) "To: Marilyn"

My answers will be interspersed in his and marked ***.

> > Are you saying that Jesus was not crucified on the 14th but the 13th? If this be true then we must look for another Messiah because Scripture specifically gives the date for the Pascal lamb to be sacrificed on the 14th. Ex 12:6, You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it.

***Yes, I'm saying that it is my understanding that the Crucifixion was on Thursday, Nisan 13, 3790 (April 6, 30 AD). Why? because I believe what Scripture says.
***John 19:14 says, "IT WAS THE PREPARATION OF THE PASSOVER, and about the sixth hour (Roman time, 9 AM): and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!" The Preparation of the Passover (Nisan 14) was on Nisan 13.

***The Passover, Nisan 14, was still future.

***John 18:28 says, "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and THEY THEMSELVES WENT NOT INTO THE JUDGMENT HALL, LEST THEY SHOULD BE DEFILED, BUT THAT THEY MIGHT EAT THE PASSOVER."

***Therefore, the Passover was still future. Jesus shed his blood at the same time that they were killing maybe a thousand Passover lambs, BETWEEN THE EVENINGS, i.e., between 3 and 6 PM on Nisan 13. The people had to roast the lambs and eat them before midnight, the 6th hour (Jewish time) of Nisan 14, the Passover.
> > You said that the 7yr tribulation would start on May 29, 2009 and end on Sept. 14, 2015. This time period doesn't fit perfectly. This time period is 6years 3 months and 17 days inclusive. So your telling me that Gabriel is wrong when he told Daniel that the last 70th week is not 7yrs?

***No. Gabriel doesn't make mistakes. I think the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 started on Oct. 21, 2008 and will end on Sept. 14, 2015, the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of God's Wrath. That is 2520 days.

***However, the Tribulation is to be shortened or no flesh would be saved.

***Mt 24:20-22 says, "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And EXCEPT THOSE DAYS (the last half of the Tribulation) SHOULD BE SHORTENED, THERE SHOULD NO FLESH BE SAVED: BUT FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED."

***The first half of the Tribulation will be 1260 days, as in Rev. 11:3. It says, "I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

***It is the last half of the Tribulation, called the Great Tribulation, that is to be shortened.

***Dan. 8:13,14 gives the 2300 days of the shortened Tribulation (1260 + 1040, calculated using Jewish inclusive reckoning, because it is a block of time). It says, "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (i.e., the first half of the Tribulation, the 1260 days), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days (1260 + 1040 = 2300 days); then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

> > Dan 9:27,He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. We know this time frame of the middle is 42 months making the whole week of 7 to be 84 months. Rev 11:2-3, They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days. Therefore the total days would be 2520 days, not 2300days.

***That is before it is shortened.

> > We are told what the 2300 days are. There is no speculation to its meaning. Dan 8:13-14, How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?" He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored." This gives u s the time that the daily sacrifices will begin. They can not begin until a place is built to offer them up i.e. a sanctuary.

***Sacrificing started in Ezra's day when they built the altar, not when the Temple was finished.

> > This can only be accomplished once a peace treaty is made to allow Israel to build its temple.

***When Moses and Elijah show up, and build the altar. Sacrificing can begin.

> > Taking the total days of the 7yr period and subtracting them from the total time when the sacrifices begin you get an approximant time of 9 months. This is how long it took the Word to be incarnated so He could tabernacle with us.

> > According to simple math the rapture will not happen this year. We know God to be a mathematic and everything He has done has added up. It's our calculations that are flawed.

*** I expect the Pre-Trib Rapture on Pentecost, May 29, 2009, and the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 14, 2015.

> > Thanks for the reply and God bless you. Come Lord Jesus come.

***You're welcome. God bless you. Maranatha. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Location of Antonia"

Oliver Thomas (21 May 2009)
"Marilyn Agee (19 May 2009) Location of Antonia"

Thanks Marilyn,

I'm trying to visualize the Tower of Antonia being at this location, and if that were the case wouldn't that mean Herod's massive Temple Platform would need to be almost 100 feet lower than we see it today; that is, lower than the rock under the dome we see today. In reading Josephus' description it leaves up to debate the possibility that from a rock foundation large smooth stones were built up amounting to 50 cubits in overall height. If the rock outcropping under the Dome we see today, which is not that wide or long (58'x44'), were another 91.5 feet taller it would have looked like a pole sticking out of the ground. I guess the biggest problem I have with the rock under the dome being the location of the Antonia is it's central position on the Temple Mount platform, and the unlikely scenario that after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, somebody found it necessary to remove almost a hundred feet of solid rock mountain leaving a stub of rock we see under the Dome today; and this for no recorded or apparent reason. You said:

"Fort Antonia occupied the northern half of the Temple Mount, and the Temple with its courts occupied the southern half."

Do you think the Fortress of Antonia was that large? Thanks Marilyn for your thoughtful reply. YBIC Oliver Thomas

My reply

> > "Fort Antonia occupied the northern half of the Temple Mount, and the Temple with its courts occupied the southern half."

> > Do you think the Fortress of Antonia was that large?

Roughly speaking, yes. It housed an entire garrison of Roman soldiers. That would seem impossible to house in Herod's castle at the northwest corner of the Temple Mount.

As for the upper limit of the Temple court, I think it was where they found the foundation of the wall. If I remember right, it was 18 feet south of the Dome of the Rock's southern face.

Relying on memory, I think the Temple Mount Platform was 40 feet lower than today. Parts of that rock have been chipped away for souvenirs. They finally had to make it harder to get to. Agape

My reply to a post on the Five Doves site, Re: "The Rapture – Pentecost (Part 3)"

By BG Ellis (30 Apr 2009)

> > The Lord revealed to Isaac Newton, that Jesus would return 49 years from the date that Israel once again has control of Jerusalem (This occurred on June 7, 1967 when the Temple Mount was recaptured). Newton was also shown that the Second Coming of Jesus would be at the start of a Jubilee year on the Day of Atonement!

1967 + 49 = 2016. I think Newton was right about the year of the Second Advent. However, the Jubilee year starts on Nisan 1, not the Day of Atonement. Tishri 10 didn't start a year, it was just the day its coming on the following Nisan 1 was announced.

I think the Jubilee year will begin Nisan 1, 5776 (April 9, 2016) and run until Nisan 1, 5777. We got a hint of these years Sept. 29, 2008, when the Dow ended down 777.68.

I think Nisan 1, 5776 will be the first day of the Regnal, Sacred and Jubilee Years. a perfect time for the Second Advent. Jesus would take office at the same time all the other Hebrew kings officially took office, on Nisan 1.

According to Mt. 1:17, there are 48.33 days in a generation. June 7, 1967 was when Israel took the Temple area. 1967 + 48 = 2015. Add 4 months (Sivan, Tamuz, Av and Elul), and you come to Tishri 1, 5776, Sept. 14, 2015. I think that is THE DAY OF THE LORD, the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the Day of God's Wrath.

According to William Whiston's footnotes to Josephus, 24 B.C. was a Sabbatical year, and 23 B.C. was a Jubilee year. THIS WOULD MEAN THAT AD 27 WAS A SABBATICAL YEAR, AND AD 28 WAS A JUBILEE."

That's true. Jesus read Isa. 61:1,2 on the Day of Atonement in 27 AD to announce the coming Jubilee Year that started the following Nisan 1. That was the last one Israel kept.

The Jubilee Cycle started over again at the Six-Day War in 1967 (5727). Add 49 years, and you will get 5776. I think Nisan 1, 5776 (the Second Advent) to Nisan 1, 5777 will be the Jubilee Year.

> > Daniel 12:11... And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

> > If we add these two together (1260 days + 1290 days) we have a total of 2550 days.

> > This time period is rare, usually it has 2520 days in the 7-Jewish year period (360 x 7). Now watch how all the pieces of the puzzle fall into place:

> > On September 29th 2008 Rosh Hashanah (The Feast of Trumpets) marked the beginning of another cycle of seven years for the Jewish people. If you add 2,550 days to this date, you come exactly to September 23, 2015!... Were there any signs on this date? Yes, there were two: First, the USA stock market closed down the largest one day drop in history in the amount of “777” points on the DOW and was the start of the greatest financial collapse in world history! The number “777” means completion. Second, a huge sun flare was seen on this date.

The largest Gamma Ray Burst to date happened Sept. 16 too. The 777.68 the Dow was down seems to suggest the Jewish years of 5776 and 5777.

I think the 70th week of Daniel started Oct. 21, 2008 and will last until Sept. 14, 2015, the Feast of Trumpets that should be the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the Day of God's Wrath that follows the rapture of the Tribulation saints.

> > The Bible says that the 70th week of Daniel will last 2550 days:

The first half will be 1260 days. The last half will be shortened to 1040 days. Dan. 8:13,14 says, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (first half of the Tribulation), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

Then why does Dan. 12:12 add another 30 days to the last half of the Tribulation?

Thirty days is customary for mourning the dead. Num 20:29 says, they mourned for Aaron thirty days". De 34:8 says, "And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended."

Following God's wrath on the Feast of Trumpets in Eze. 38:18-20, Eze 39:12,13 says, "And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (i.e., at the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD.

That year, 5776, is a leap year with the 13th month. Therefore, there will be 7 months between Tishri 1 (day of God's Wrath) and Nisan 1 (day of Jesus' return in glory). If it was not a leap year, there would be 6 months between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1.

Dan 12:12,13 says, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days." On the 1335th day, Israelites will stand in their own plot of land in Israel.

> > If we subtract 2520 days from September 23, 2015 we come to October 29, 2008. In Revelation 8:1 it talks about a silence in heaven for 30 minutes, and in the scripture above in Daniel 9:27, it could be read: “he shall reaffirm his campaign promises with his many followers for one week”. As you probably remember, Obama’s 30-minute info-commercial occurred on October 29, 2008! Never before in the world’s history has anyone given a 30-minute info-commercial “confirming his campaign promises with many that if he is elected he would change the world”. What are the odds that this event occurs exactly 2520 days from September 23, 2015? Why 30 minutes? Why not 15 minutes? Could the 30-minute silence in heaven (which only occurs this one time in the bible) be referring to Obama’s 30-minute info-commercial? You see, nothing happens by chance! God controls history!

I think the 2520 days will be shortened to 2300 days, and the great and terrible Day of the Lord will be on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 14, 2015. Subtracting 2300 days (by inclusive reckoning because it is a block of time) from Sept. 14, 2015 brings us to May 29, 2009, Pentecost. I think it will not only be the first day of the 2300-day Tribulation, I think it will be the day of the Pre-Trib Rapture. The Pre-Wrath Rapture should take place on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 14, 2015, just before the Judgment Seat of Christ convenes.

The silence is both in Heaven and on Earth. It has nothing to do with Obama's infomercial. It is in respect of Jesus Christ as he is being seated as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It should take place on the Feast of Trumpets in 2015. Still in Heaven, he is to be given his kingdom that day. Then he will be seated as judge.

Rev 11:15-19 explains. "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come (the Second Advent is 7 months future, Eze. 39:12,13); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (i.e., at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And THE TEMPLE OF GOD WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

Hab 2:20 says, "But the LORD is in his holy temple: LET ALL THE EARTH KEEP SILENCE BEFORE HIM."

Rev. 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, THERE WAS SILENCE IN HEAVEN ABOUT THE SPACE OF HALF AN HOUR. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." These are trumpets of judgment.

Rev. 8:5,6 says, "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

The fiery censer represents the asteroid Wormwood that is to impact Earth on the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 8:8-11). Agape


The year that Jesus was resurrected from the dead and ascended to Heaven on the morning of the 'Feast of Firstfruits'; He was before the 'Alter in Heaven' at the same time as the priest was giving the 'sacred sheave wave offering' before the alter in the Temple in Jerusalem. The Temple was in full operation at that time. Since the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. all Temple operations have ceased.

It may be that our 'Pentecost Rapture' will NOT happen until the Temple in Jerusalem is rebuilt and all Temple operations resume. It may be that the FIRST celebration of the 'Feast of Harvest/Pentecost', including the 'sacred two-loaves wave offering' before the alter by the priest in the newly reconstructed Temple in Jerusalem will be the 'Day of our Rapture'.

It may be that we, 'The Bride', will be before the 'Alter in Heaven' at the same time as the priest is giving the 'sacred two-loaves wave offering' before the alter in the in the new Temple in Jerusalem. Maybe that is one of the reasons the Temple must be rebuilt.

According to Your Devine Plan, Come Lord Jesus!

My reply

Honestly, I don't see how it can be later than May 29, 2009. I don't expect the earthly Temple to be built until after the spiritual Temple is gone. Agape

More on Holy Fire on the Saturday before Easter in the eastern Orthodox church

"Holy Fire"

"normally the miracle happens immediately after I have said the prayers. From the core of the very stone on which Jesus lay an indefinable LIGHT pours forth. It usually has a BLUE TINT, but the colour may change and take many different hues. It cannot be described in human terms. The light rises out of the stone as mist may rise out of a lake — it almost looks as if the stone is covered by a moist cloud, but it is light. This light each year behaves differently. Sometimes it covers just the stone, while other times it gives light to the whole sepulchre, so that people who stand outside the tomb and look into it will see it filled with light. The light does not burn — I have never had my beard burnt in all the sixteen years I have been Patriarch in Jerusalem and have received the Holy Fire. The light is of a different consistency than normal fire that burns in an oil lamp... At a certain point the light rises and forms a column in which the fire is of a different nature, so that I am able to light my candles from it. When I thus have received the flame on my candles, I go out and give the fire first to the Armenian Patriarch and then to the Coptic. Hereafter I give the flame to all people present in the Church....

The Holy Light is not only distributed by the Archbishop, but operates also by itself. It is emitted from the Holy Sepulchre with a hue completely different from that of natural light. IT SPARKLES, IT FLASHES LIKE LIGHTNING, IT FLIES LIKE A DOVE around the tabernacle of the Holy Sepulchre, and lights up the unlit lamps of olive oil hanging in front of it. It whirls from one side of the church to the other. It enters some of the chapels inside the church, as for instance the chapel of the Calvery (at a higher level than the Holy Sepulchre) and lights up the little lamps. It lights up also the candles of certain pilgrims. In fact there are some very pious pilgrims who, every time they attended this ceremony, noticed that their candles lit up on their own accord!his divine light also presents some peculiarities: As soon as it appears it has a BLUISH HUE and does not burn....

How old is the wonder?
The first written account of the Holy Fire (Holy Light) dates from the fourth century, but authors write about events that occurred in the first century....

S. Georg Nissky (+394). In the second word about Resurrection write about apostle Peter (I c.) see Holy Light....

Feodosi the Great (+395), who visited secretly, according to tradition, Jerusalem, enter the Church of Holy Sepulchre and then all icon-lamp put on fire....

Silvia of Aquitania, 385. Writing "Pilgrimage of Silvia"

Light proceeds from the core of the stone — A BLUE, INDEFINABLE LIGHT which after some time kindles closed oil lamps as well as the two candles of the Patriarch. THIS LIGHT IS "THE HOLY FIRE", and it spreads to all people present in the Church.... The miracle happens at 2:00 PM....

The BLUE FLAME is seen to move in different places in the Church. A number of signed testimonies by pilgrims, whose candles lit spontaneously, attest to the validity of these ignitions. The person who experiences the miracle from a close distance by having the fire on the candle or seeing the BLUE LIGHT usually leaves Jerusalem changed
Holy Saturday and the Miracle of Holy Fire

The miracle is not confined to what actually happens inside the little tomb, where the Patriarch prays. What may be even more significant, is that the BLUE LIGHT IS REPORTED TO APPEAR AND BE ACTIVE OUTSIDE THE TOMB. Every year many believers claim that this miraculous light ignites candles, which they hold in their hands, of its own initiative. All in the church wait with candles in the hope that they may ignite spontaneously. Often unlit oil lamps catch light by themselves before the eyes of the pilgrims. THE BLUE FLAME IS SEEN TO MOVE IN DIFFERENT PLACES IN THE CHURCH. A number of signed testimonies by pilgrims, whose candles lit spontaneously, attest to the validity of these ignitions. The person who experiences the miracle from close up by having the fire on the candle or seeing the blue light usually leaves Jerusalem changed, and for everyone having attended the ceremony, there is always a “before and after” the miracle of the Holy Fire in Jerusalem.

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