Pro and Con 1497

Posted 6-18-09

Incoming e-mail, Re: Call them "Tribulation" clouds

And there shall be great signs in the sky; and wonders... Agape

My reply

...Wow! I have never seen anything like this sky.

Thanks for everything. Agape

Incoming e-mail, Re: Hello from another Christian

From: Rev. JR Seabolt

I keep reading your posts on the five doves web site and I just wanted to invite you to visit my site and see why I believe the dead in Christ will rise on first fruits and how the rapture is a two part event, if you have the time please read my page and let me know what you think....

God bless you. Rev. Jason Seabolt
Rapture Soon

My reply

Thanks for writing and giving me your URL. On your web site, you said, "The Great Tekiah is “the last trump” that Paul was referring to and it will signal the Main Harvest Rapture of the Church on some future feast of trumpets, which will take place somewhere in the middle of the tribulation."

I agree with the Feast of Trumpets for the "last trump" Rapture. However, it seems to be on the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the Great Tribulation. Rev. 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The second Rapture takes place in the Day of the Lord, the Day of God's Wrath. Rev. 7:9,14 says, After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation (i.e., the shortened last half of the Tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

I too thought last Pentecost would be the day of the First Rapture. Since it passed, I wonder if the Rapture will be on the day of firstripe grapes. That ties in with Song of Solomon 2:10f.

The time of the firstripe grapes will be Sivan 30, 5769 (June 22, 2009). We will know soon. Agape

My afterthoughts, Re: the time of firstripe grapes

Job 15:20 The wicked man travaileth with pain all his days, and the number of years is hidden to the oppressor.

Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

"Let us get up early to the vineyards; let us see if the vine flourish, [whether] the tender grape appear, [and] the pomegranates bud forth: there will I give thee my loves."(Song of Solomon 7:12)

Mic 7:1,2 says, "Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit. The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.

Son 2:10-17 says, "My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away. O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely. Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes. My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies. Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, turn, my beloved, and be thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether.

Son 7:6-12 says, "How fair and how pleasant art thou, O love, for delights! This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes. I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples; And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak. I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me. Come, my beloved, let us go forth into the field; let us lodge in the villages. Let us get up early to the vineyards; let us see if the vine flourish, whether the tender grape appear, and the pomegranates bud forth: there will I give thee my loves."

Incoming e-mail, Re: The "Light" trip to come

As to the rapture date: I've decided the correct rapture date is every day so I don't concentrate on any specific date and know I'll be right one day; this makes every day peaceful for me.

I've said before, I don't believe in prophetic dreams or visions, don't count or see prophetic numbers, haven't seen phenomenal ends of rainbows, don't see doves.

About 9 am one morning this past week, I was in my bed drinking my coffee while watching Fox News. All of a sudden, there was a brilliant white light coming through every pane of the double windows. There are sheer curtains on the windows and they were obliterated as though they weren't there. I'm in Texas and know what full sun is like coming through those big windows and this wasn't that. The brilliant light I saw flooding the room was like no other I've ever seen. It obscured everything and I couldn't take my eyes off this brilliant light. "This is what will happen." was instantly in my brain. The light lasted for a number of seconds before it went out. For those seconds, I saw nothing but this beautiful light and was not aware of my body or what was being said on TV.

Afterward, I felt completely at peace with a smile inside myself. I believe this is what will happen at the rapture - a brilliant light will envelop believers, and their thoughts, at that instant, will only be of the light. I have read believer's concerns over the years that they may be frightened or not want to go due to concerns about others or they may be asleep and not wake up for the rapture. I now think they won't have thoughts about any earthly matter at that moment - the light will erase earthly thought and transfigure them; it will be out of their control. I also think, if they're asleep, a light that bright will instantly wake them up and off they will go.

I did a search for the word, "light", in the Bible, and not all "light" is equal - there are "degrees" of light. When light is connected to God or Christ in scripture, it is intense/brilliant. I believe that is the intensity of the light I saw.

We use earthly thoughts now about what we will think or question at that moment, but I'm convinced our earthly side/thoughts will instantly be overridden by the intense spiritual light. Right now, we have control over our earthly bodies and thoughts and it's hard to imagine that will be gone in an instant but we have to remember God is all powerful and the bit of protoplasm that makes up our bodies, is subject to His control.

What will happen at the time of the rapture, then, is not up for debate. We have no control over it, can't stop it, can't decide at that moment whether to go or not - decision time is gone and God/Christ has taken over.

Then, I looked up the speed of "light" and the distance between Earth and Saturn. The speed of "light" is 670,616,629 miles per hour and Saturn is about 793,000,000 miles from Earth. Traveling at the speed of "light", one gets to Saturn in 1.1824937910986 hours. Rounding it off, in about one hour, which is hardly enough time to say hello and have a cup of tea, we're there.

I'm taking the "light" trip one day soon, and you will, too. Love

My reply

> > I'm taking the "light" trip one day soon, and you will, too.

Wow! Thanks. I too searched the Bible for "light." I liked those below the best.

Prov 4:18: "But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day."

Mic 7:9: "I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness."

John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

Col 1:12: "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light".

1Peter 2:9: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light".

Hope to see you and your dog soon. Hope our dog will be with us. He is the smartest and sweetest dog we have ever had. He obviously understands most of what we say to him. He is smart enough to trick us too. He will come and paw at my elbow. I'll ask him if he wants to go out. He'll jump around and go to the door. When he comes in, he gets a treat if he doesn't bark. This morning, he didn't even leave the patio, but came right back in to get his treat. He has come to paw my elbow since that, but I said, "I'm busy Harley," and he understood and went away. Love

From Five Doves site, Re: Pineman (15 June 2009) "The Third Week of Jacob's Trouble"

I am presently looking at the possibility that we entered the third week of Jacob's trouble as has surfaced lately on the Doves website. Some preliminary results:

Rosh Hashanah 2007: Sept. 13, 2007 Beginning of the Third Week
Rosh Hashanah 2014: Sept. 05, 2014 (2550 inclusive days after Rosh Hashanah 2007. 30 days earlier would be 2520 days (1260 days from the midpoint?) which begins the blowing of the trumpets and marks the season of repentance.
Yom Ha'atzmaut 2011: May 10, 2011 - Jewish Independence Day - 1335 days from Rosh Hashanah 2007.

The time of the 2 witnesses has already been established ending on Christmas (sic) 2012 and beginning around July 11, 2009.

If the two events (Rapture of the Church & two witnesses) are concurrent then maybe we have the right date for the realization of our blessed hope. Pineman

My reply

Third week of Jacob's trouble! I don't see how there can be more than one Day of Jacob's Trouble, the Day of God's Wrath.

Jer 30:7 says, "Alas! for THAT DAY IS GREAT, SO THAT NONE IS LIKE IT: IT IS EVEN THE TIME OF JACOB'S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it."

Dan 12:1,2 says, "And at that time (i.e., when the False Prophet is deposed; Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE (the 144,000 Jews) SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERY ONE THAT SHALL BE FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (at the Last-Trump Rapture on one day, the Day of God's Wrath; Rev 6:17; 7:9,14), some to everlasting life". Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, OF ALL NATIONS (including Israel), and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:14 says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

At the First-Trump Pre-Trib Rapture, those redeemed from the Earth sing the NEW SONG (Rev. 5:9). At the Last-Trump Pre-Wrath Rapture, only the 144,000 Israelites sing the new song. The foolish-virgin Laodiceans do not.

The wise virgins and the 144,000 Israelites are the only ones that will sing the NEW SONG.

At the time of the second Rapture, Rev 14:2-5 says, "And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and NO MAN COULD LEARN THAT SONG BUT THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, WHICH WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." Agape

Interesting section in "THE BOOK OF ENOCH," CHAPTER LXXXI

1. And he said unto me:
'Observe, Enoch, these heavenly tablets,
And read what is written thereon,
And mark every individual fact.'

p. 108

2 And I observed the heavenly tablets, and read everything which was written (thereon) and understood everything, and read the book of all the deeds of mankind, and of all the children of flesh that shall be upon the earth to the remotest generations. 3. And forthwith I blessed the great Lord the King of glory for ever, in that He has made all the works of the world, And I extolled the Lord because of His patience, And blessed Him because of the children of men. 4. And after that I said:'Blessed is the man who dies in righteousness and goodness, Concerning whom there is no book of unrighteousness written, And against whom no day of judgement shall be found.'

5. And those seven holy ones brought me and PLACED ME ON THE EARTH before the door of my house, and said to me: 'Declare everything to thy son Methuselah, and show to all thy children that no flesh is righteous in the sight of the Lord, for He is their Creator. 6. ONE YEAR WE WILL LEAVE THEE WITH THY SON, till thou givest thy (last) commands, that thou mayest teach thy children and record (it) for them, and testify to all thy children; and IN THE SECOND YEAR THEY SHALL TAKE THEE FROM THEIR MIDST.


Obama awaiting PM's reply on new plan, Jun. 9, 2009

The US has formulated a TWO-YEAR PLAN for cementing a two-state agreement between Israel and the Palestinians and is now waiting for Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to convey Israel's reply...

The Egyptian leadership has therefore decided to make Palestinian reconciliation a top priority, the report said, and has tasked Suleiman with expediting the unity talks....

"Suleiman asked the Hamas delegation to come to Cairo as part of the efforts that Egypt is pursuing in order to bring an end to inter-Palestinian division, with the goal being to ready the way for the diplomatic process," the Egyptian official was quoted as saying. "Egypt will keep up its consultations and contacts with the Palestinian organizations and faction in the near future in a manner that will FACILITATE THE SIGNING OF A FINAL AGREEMENT THAT WILL BRING INTER-PALESTINIAN RECONCILIATION ON JULY 7."

Obama's plan has also reportedly prompted the forum of Arab prime ministers to set an urgent meeting for June 17, in which the Arab world will debate Egypt's efforts to reconcile the disparate forces among the Palestinians.

Interesting post on Five Doves site, Re: "SIVAN=TIMES AND SEASONS= SOON?"

Gina McCray (12 June 2009)

Found this post by C.J on Rapture In the Air and thought it was quite interesting about the meaning of the month of Sivan-


"This verse:

"But of the TIMES and the SEASONS, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."


Hebrew meaning of Jewish month of SIVAN is....


Could it be more clear than this????!!!

Rapture is during the Spring, which means it's NO LATER THAN June 21st.

Paul secretly told us that the RAPTURE IS DURING THE MONTH OF SIVAN!!!

Why do you think he said right after that...., brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

He said it would come as a thief in the night, but you should not be in darkness or it should not cone as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT TO YOU, because I am telling you what month it is!!! WOW"

Incoming e-mail, Re: Just a question

Hi Marilyn, my daughter and I are starting some serious studying of the Bible and books related.

What would you recommend for any books that give one understanding of the culture and 'times' back then; also, translation from Greek/Hebrew etc and the meanings etc.

Are there any commentaries that have translated the Bible into English, perse, explaining the cultures and how it applies for today?

We have the KJV study Bible, the NASB study Bible with the Strongs Concordance for that particular Bible; we are interested in the older manuscripts with translations and anything that will help relate to the Jewish customs and also the "who, what and why" of Paul's letters and the New Testament as a whole.

Thanks so much Marilyn for your help. God bless you and Ed; my husband also has Parkinson's and only the Grace of God keeps me going to look after him!!!

My reply

I spent 7 years reading man's books about the Bible from BIOLA's Seminary Collection without finding out what the cherubim and flaming sword represented. Either they left it out or went off on an imaginative journey I couldn't believe. Another thing I wanted to know, what the Sword of the Lord represented, I couldn't be satisfied that I had found the correct answer. I had to ask the Lord's help and figure these things out for myself. Along the way, I learned other important things.

In general, I have been disappointed in commentaries. I'd rather get a different version of the Bible and read it again. New things come to the surface every time. The more I know about the Bible in general, the more deep things come clear. There seems to be no end to the layers of information packed into that one small book. However, to get started you can get the Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary free from eSword (

This eSword program is free and a wonderful tool. It has Strong's, Thayer's and Brown-Driver-Briggs' dictionaries. I have downloaded 11 or 12 Bibles. Be sure to include the valuable Septuagint, the Bible used in Jesus' day.

You can select a verse, click Compare, and see that verse listed from each of the Bibles you have downloaded. One of them will be the King James Version with Strong's numbers. That comes with the initial download. Clicking a number will bring up the Hebrew or Greek word definition in Strong's Concordance, and you don't have to open that big heavy book like I did for so many years.

Another advantage I really appreciate now that I have cataracts in both eyes, I can make the type larger in eSword. Otherwise, I would have to use a magnifier. When I run a search, I can double click each entry I want to read so it will come up in larger type on the left side. That encourages me to read the context. That can bring on a eureka moment.

Besides what I have on eSword, I like my Green's Interlinear. It was my most expensive addition to my library, but worth every penny. I was able to find a used set of the Old Testament volumes. I used to visit used bookstores often looking for different versions of the Bible.

I read Josephus' Antiquities and Wars of the Jews for understanding of the times. He was a Pharisee, and had access to important documents. How's that for a first-century viewpoint? I think he was born in 35 AD. Someone very nice sent me this valuable tool.

May God bless you and yours. I sure pray I have Ed with me at the Rapture. I want to be with him forever. When he was in service, he prayed for a Christian wife. I lived in another state, so God had to do a lot to get us together, but he picked out the right one for both of us, and we knew it right away when we met. Agape

My comments, Re: "We are Almost There," by Harold Camping

> > Atonement to Rapture: 722,500 Days

> > We are very certain that the crucifixion of Christ occurred on the day of the feast of the Passover, which was on a Friday, in A.D. 33, which was the 14th day of the first month of the Biblical ceremonial calendar. We are also very certain that this day was April 1, A.D. 33, according to our modern calendar.

My immediate reaction: If his Crucifixion date is wrong, which I think it is, then the 722,500-day count to Iyar 17, May 21, 2011, would not be correct. I think the Crucifixion was on Nisan 13, the preparation of the Passover, 3790 (April 6, 30 AD).

My reasons: Herod began to build the Temple in 19/20 BC. It was 46 years in building (John 2:20) at Passover in 27 AD, the first Passover of Jesus' ministry. Jesus was baptized when he was 30 years old in 26 AD, the 15th year of Tiberius (Luke 3:1,2). Tiberius became Co-Rex with Augustus in 12 AD. A coin minted in 13 AD has the head of Augustus on one side and the head of Tiberius on the other.

> > God further solidifies or locks in this date, May 21, 2011, by placing the day of shutting the door, when the rapture will occur, on the 17th day of the second month of the Biblical calendar.

He is assuming that it was the 17th of Iyar, but the Flood was before the calendar was changed at Mt. Sinai. Therefore the 2nd month would probably have been Cheshvan.

> > We also have learned that the last day of the earth’s existence, October 21, 2011, is the 23rd day of the seventh month of the Biblical calendar.

> > If the timeline presently set forth is inaccurate in any one of its dates, many of the proofs would be invalidated. Certainly if any of the dates we have learned from the Bible are incorrect, then many of the proofs would no longer be known. We indeed can be certain that the rapture will occur on May 21, 2011, and the final day of the history of the world is October 21, 2011.

I doubt it. 2009 + 7 = 2016.

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