Pro and Con 153, Updated 7-16-98

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When I read your comments about the last day of this Jewish year--Elul 29 it sure rang a bell.Keep up your good work.

This is from CAPS. Marilyn, I have been reading some interesting infor. Rabbi Yosef Stern in a book ,The Days Of Awe, had some very interesting comments. He feels the month of ELUL is associated with "DAYS OF GRACE" and with God's Bride. Stern writes that the sixth month-ELUL- is also connected to the concept of a "VIRGIN" bride. "ACCORDING TO JEWISH TRADITION, THE TWELVE HEAVENLY CONSTELLATIONS CORRESPOND TO THE TWELVE MONTHS OF THE YEAR. SPECIFICALLY, THE MONTH OF ELUL IS REPRESENTED BY THE CONSTELLATION THAT RESEMBLES A VIRGIN."(p. 31). The sun moves into Virgo during this time, alluding to the spiritual significance of the virgin bride. Stern continues: "Perhaps the most famous allusion to ELUL in all of the OLD testament is that voiced by Solomon's Song, "I AM MY BELOVED'S, AND MY BELOVED IS MINE". Song of Solomon 6:3. THE FIRST LETTERS OF EACH OF THESE WORDS, WHEN COMBINED, FORM THE WORD ELUL"(pp.31,32).Note that the HEBREW words in the above scripture each begins with a letter that,when put together, spells ELUL.

Also, in further studying the wheat harvest I noticed several interesting things. In RUTH CH. 2 AND 3 you will notice the following. Ruth participated in both the barley and wheat harvest until completed. In ch. 3 she approaches BOAZ when he is "winnowing" the barley in the THRESHING floor.Notice that the barley harvest and the wheat harvest are now over. But--what comes next?The winnowing process of separating the wheat from the chaff. Evidently, since the barley was harvested first, it was winnowed first and then the wheat later. Also notice that Ruth stayed at the feet of Boaz "until morning"--could this be indicative of "until the dawning of the 7th day?" Is this where we are currently--with the barley harvest and wheat harvest over, and the "winnowing" process of separating the wheat from the chaff going on? Notice Matthew 3:12 "HIS WINNOWING FAN IS IN HIS HAND, AND HE WILL THOROUGHLY CLEAR OUT HIS THRESHING FLOOR, AND GATHER HIS WHEAT IN HIS BARN; BUT THE CHAFF HE WILL BURN UP WITH FIRE THAT CANNOT BE PUT OUT".Surely the gathering into his BARN is the rapture. The chaff that goes into the fire would picture the tribulation period.Notice that the chaff was actually part of the wheat--but had to be separated. In Matt. 13:24-30 Jesus speaks about "tares" being sowed amoung the wheat. in vs.30 He says"Let both grow together until the harvest:and in the time of the HARVEST I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles TO (i.e. later) burn them:BUT GATHER THE WHEAT INTO MY BARN". The tares are false Christians--not born again. I believe the CHAFF are Laodiceans who although Christians, are headed into the tribulation.

Is it possible that in the SONG OF SOLOMON that when it speaks of the early figs and firstripe grapes in the spring that it is referring to the BETROTHAL period of the bride and that later the actual marriage is referred to later? Notice that in ch. 4 it refers to "pomegranates with pleasant FRUITS..."

MICAH 4:11-13 "NOW ALSO MANY NATIONS ARE GATHERED AGAINST THEE, THAT SAY LET HER BE DEFILED, AND LET OUR EYE LOOK UPON ZION. BUT THEY KNOW NOT THE THOUGHTS OF THE LORD,NEITHER UNDERSTAND THEY HIS COUNSEL:FOR HE SHALL GATHER THEM AS THE SHEAVES INTO THE FLOOR...AND I WILL CONSECRATE THEIR GRAIN UNTO THE LORD..."

JOB 39:12 " WILL YOU BELIEVE HIM, THAT HE WILL BRING HOME YOUR SEED, AND GATHER IT INTO THY BARN?" Perhaps our lack of understanding or the HARVEST process has resulted in not fully understanding the timing.It appears clear that the GATHERING OF THE WHEAT INTO THE BARN is the FINAL event. Wheat is a picture of the BRIDE. I sure don't want to be as the chaff!! I am content to remain at the feet of "Boaz"--however long it takes!

My reply

Re: 2 Raptures on Eve of Trumpets
I'm sure glad you are searching the scriptures. Your material is interesting. Lots of food for thought.

I've been not only reading some Scripture, but I have also been reading some materials someone sent. They rightfully thought I would enjoy reading up on Jewish Feasts, etc.

We are now in the period referred to by Michael Strassfeld, in "The Jewish Holidays," as "THE THREE WEEKS" "THE DARK TIME," a time beginning and ending with fasts, the Fast of Tamuz and the Fast of Tisha be-Av. This year, these fasts are kept on our July 12 and August 2. It is considered a time of mourning and grief, first for the breaching of the walls of Jerusalem and second for the destruction of the temples.

After this, on Fri, Aug, 7, the full moon, is a minor Jewish festival Tu be-Av. Strassfeld quotes a strange statement from the Talmud that says, "There are no days as festive to Israel as those of Yom Kippur and the fifteenth of Av. The daughters of Israel used to dress in white and go out to the fields to dance and young men would follow after them" (Ta'anit 4:8). Av 15 came to be a day of courting, in which girls took the lead. He says the statement in the Talmud has been interpreted in different ways. One opinion is that both afternoons are periods of forgiveness.

Regarding Av 15, tradition is that "the last 15,000 Israelites still alive from the desert generation were spared from death and allowed to enter the promised land." That's interesting to mull over since the Rapture is to catch up some that are spared from death and will be allowed to enter their promised land, Heaven.

I Thess. 4:17 says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Strassfeld says, "Since by tradition the decree condemning all the Israelites to die in the desert was issued on Tisha be-Av so many years before, its commutation on Tu be-Av, a week later in the calendar, is striking" He also says, "Just as Yom Kippur brings forgiveness for the golden-calf incident of the seventeenth of Tammuz, so the minor holiday Tu be-Av (according to one tradition) brings forgiveness for the spies incident of Tisha be-Av. It marks, in fact, the end of the forty years of wandering and immediately precedes the entrance to the promised land."

In some material someone else FAXed to me, is an article on "Tu B'Ab: A Jewish Celebration of Love...the closest thing on the Jewish calendar to a sweethearts' day." The FAX is very blurred (we had just put in a new roll of paper when it came in) and I can't read all of the URL. It starts out: http://jewish Family.com/scripts/. That isn't quite half of it, but it should get you to the Web site to search for the article. I can see that when the temple was there, it was a major holiday (with Day of Atonement). It also tells of the girls dressing in white and dancing in the vineyards. The article says, "The day is considered an auspicious one for weddings."

This is also called Dry Wood Day for it is the last day for bringing wood offerings to the temple for that year.

I need to go back and read more about when Israel entered the promised land. BTW, Elul starts Sun, Aug, 23.

> Evidently, since the barley was harvested
> first, it was winnowed first and then the wheat later.

When you read different translations, it is hard to tell, but I'll go with Green's Interlinear. Ruth 3:2 says that Boaz "is winnowing the threshingfloor of barley tonight." What made me grab several translations this afternoon is because I remembered that Boaz gave Ruth six measures of barley the next day. I thought that since he gave her barley, they must have been winnowing barley.

> BUT THE CHAFF HE WILL BURN UP WITH FIRE THAT CANNOT BE PUT
> OUT"...I believe the CHAFF are Laodiceans who
> although Christians, are headed into the tribulation.

Do think about that one again. I think the Laodiceans are Christians for they have to be in the Body of Christ to be spewed out of his mouth. Surely they are not to be burned up with fire that cannot be put out. They are merely to be chastised (Rev. 3:19). They can "be zealous therefore and repent." The message starts with "the church of the Laodiceans" and ends with "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

> Is it possible that in the SONG OF SOLOMON that when it speaks of the
> early figs and firstripe grapes in the spring that it is referring to
> the BETROTHAL period of the bride and that later the actual marriage
> is referred to later? Notice that in ch. 4 it refers to "pomegranates
> with pleasant FRUITS..."

The actual Marriage of the Lamb IS later, on the first day of the Millennium. However, Song 2:10 says, "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away." It is the secret of the stairs. It sure sounds like the Rapture. Maybe I read into it something that wasn't actually indicated. I thought that "the tender grape give a good smell" sounded like the time of the firstripe grapes, which is in Sivan. Maybe it isn't the firstripe. The vintage (grape harvest) begins in Av and continues in Elul, even to Cheshvan in northern Israel. And get this, according to Unger, in Cheshvan, the month after Tishri, the fig trees are laden with fruit. That sounds a bit late for the "fig tree putteth forth her green figs." Song 2:15 says, "our vines have tender grapes." Dead-ripe grapes are probably the most tender. That could be where I went wrong, assuming that it meant the firstripe. I knew that the spies went into Canaan at the time of the firstripe grapes, so it was easy to think the Song meant the firstripe. The Rapture doesn't sound too far off now, does it?

Song 2:17 ends with "be thou like a roe or a young hart upon the mountains of Bether." Bether means separation. The Amplified has, "the mountains which separate us." Then 3:1 says, "BY night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not." Doesn't that sound like the Tribulation saints who are left behind? I thought they would be caught up later, on Tishri 1, which fits pomegranate harvest. They start to ripen in Elul. Also, the pomegranates are mentioned after his crowning and wedding, which I think are also on Tishri 1. Song 3:11 in the Amplified says, " Go forth, O you daughters of Zion (144,000?), and gaze upon King Solomon (type of Christ, the Son of David) wearing the crown with which his mother...crowned him on the day of his wedding."

> MICAH 4:11-13 "NOW ALSO MANY NATIONS ARE GATHERED AGAINST THEE, THAT
> SAY LET HER BE DEFILED, AND LET OUR EYE LOOK UPON ZION. BUT THEY KNOW
> NOT THE THOUGHTS OF THE LORD,NEITHER UNDERSTAND THEY HIS COUNSEL:FOR
> HE SHALL GATHER THEM AS THE SHEAVES INTO THE FLOOR...AND I WILL
> CONSECRATE THEIR GRAIN UNTO THE LORD..."

Something there really caught my eye, "AS THE SHEAVES." Are we these sheaves? I thought that if the Tribulation saints are caught up on Tishri 1, after "the great day of his wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17), then are we to also be caught up on Tishri 1? The thing against that is the 4 Jewish years in the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9. That parable is why I thought the Eve of Trumpets sounded more reasonable for the Pre-Trib Rapture. If Tishri 1, 5759 arrives, we have lost 5758 from the 4-year count. Anything before that is ok. The Jews count part of a year as a year.

Now, just maybe we can place the Pre-Wrath Rapture just after the sixth seal is broken, but just before Tishri 1, when "the great day of his wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17). This would put both Raptures on Elul 29, the Eve of Trumpets, but 10 Jewish years apart--5758 and 5768.

Rev. 7 is parenthetic. There are parenthetic passages between the sixth and seventh seals, trumpets, and vials. We do have to look for match points to see exactly where to place it.

Now look at Mark 13:24-27: "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light (as in Rev. 6:12), And the stars of heaven shall fall (as in 6:13), and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken (as in 6:13). And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds (6:14; "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together") with great power and glory (the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30 for the doubting Thomases that have to see to believe). And THEN shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of heaven (those who were caught up before the Tribulation)."

That is just before the men hide in the rocks and say, "the great day of his wrath is come" (Rev. 6:15-17). I'm thinking that the case for the Eve of Trumpets is getting stronger. See what you think.

Don't have time to think on this more until tomorrow. I want to hear everyone's thoughts on this. Let's put our heads together and see what we come up with.

Thanks CAPS for setting me thinking.

In His wonderful love.

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God's blessings again to you Marilyn!  When we get to heaven I would like to invite you over to my place, you can rest and I'll make you some fudge! ha ha

  Re: No man knows:  I was watching TBN last night 7-14, and they were talking to a man named Yakov Rambsel.  He felt the rapture would occur on the feast of trumpets according to the bible codes.  He also stated that when Jesus said no man knows the day or hour, he was speaking a well known idiom used long before and after Jesus's time.  When a prospective bridegroom was asked when the wedding would occur...it was always stated that no man knows the day or hour, only my father knows! (even though it was common knowledge when the wedding date would really be)  It was a very interesting show, and I guess Mr. Rambsel has published books on the subject.

  Anyway be thinking about the fudge...do you like light or dark chocolate?....nuts/or no nuts...etc.!

My reply

Thank you for this information. See my Pro and Con 153. I think we're getting there. I just got some new insight tonight. You know, I think Eve was taken out of Adam's body just before Tishri 1 began. Now, just maybe both Raptures will be just before Tishri 1 begins. Got to study more on it tomorrow. Wish I had heard Rambsel. Wish I had his book. The search is getting exciting.

Fudge? light with lots of pecans. Can I hold you to that? Sure sounds good. Hope we don't have weight problems in Heaven.

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I checked out your website. Found a lot of interesting material there. Have you studied much on Rev. 12 (the woman and the manchild and the dragon). As I have studied it I see the woman as definetly being the visable church, the manchild is the invisable church within the visable church. The dragon of course is satan working within the world government system and he's waiting to devout the manchild as soon as he is born. As soon as he is born we se him (the man child ) caught up to God (gk. HARPAZO, same word used in 1Thess. 4 :17 for rapture). If you then look at 2 Thess.2:7 "he who now letteth will let until he is taken out of the midst" as referrring to the invisable church, the manchild who will be raptured is acting as a restraining force in the earth holding back the flood of evil i.e. the system of the man of sin, until he is taken out of the way. Let me know what you think about this sometime when you have time. God Bless You

My reply

...I think the woman in Rev. 12 is Israel. She flees to Petra. The man child seems to be the rapture of the two resurrected witnesses. It isn't likely to be the church because it is Mid-Tribulation.

---

Note: Bob Schlenker, author of "The Open Scroll," has changed his mind. He now thinks the Bride will be taken, and other Christians left behind. Be sure to see his explanation at: http://users.cwnet.com/crm/tos/tos-14c.htm. Here is his introduction:

The Bride Theft

by Bob Schlenker

"What if the majority of people in the mainstream of Christianity have been so wrong about the security of their destiny that they find themselves left behind when the Lord comes for his Bride? Wouldn't that be devastating? If what I have recently come to believe is correct, that is how it is and will be. Like so many, I have been of the opinion that every Christian would go to be with the Lord at his coming, all together at the same time regardless of the individual's works. First the dead, then the living, right? Isn't that how the most popular teaching of our culture goes? It had been my opinion that the Lord would deal with the matter of separation between the ranks of saints based upon worthiness upon our arrival in heaven. I've changed my mind.

"If you've been paying attention to what I've written in the most recent issues of The Open Scroll, you may remember that a study of the significance of the Mount of Olives and of a special place on that mount called Gethsemane teaches us, among other things, about the separation of the church in the last days. Although I wasn't yet clear about how this separation was going to be evidenced, after much study and prayer I have concluded that one of the ways this separation will occur is through selective resurrection; as in - one will be taken and another left. The division appointed for the end of the age will separate Christian from Christian. Some will be taken and some left behind!

"I realize that some of you have already drawn this conclusion, but for me, this was a recent and important discovery. For others of you who still doubt whether a Christian could be left behind, I invite you to search the scriptures to test my work. If you have further insight, I'd like to hear from you. I pray that the Lord will grant us insight into the truth. To the praise of our Lord Jesus Christ - Y'shua HaMashiach!"

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It has been very rainy summer in southern Finland. (Over twice the average rain quota of this decade).

Let me comment a few points of previous pro-cons. "Long ago" a man said Ron Wyatt is spreading fairytales by saying that he heard already over 15 years ago from an "inspired young evangelist" that the Arc of the covenant was found. Well if you read what it says in R.W. site - he says found the Arc Jan 6. 1982.

In pro-con 150 there are interesting articles. In the long one (...BOTH SIDES ARE EXPECTING IT...) you can get the idea that a majority of a billion people will be raptured. I don´t think that many are going to make it to the´high calling´.I think it is "the little flock" that gets raptured, maybe even ´as in the days of Noah´ when just eight were evacuated (now we do have bigger population). A large part of that billion people is name only christians, who do not believe in Jesus. They and followers of islam will probably fail to see the lies of the antichrist and the apostate church, and willingly accept both of them.

Let us not cast away our hope of the BIG DAY taking place this summer. July 26 is the seventh sunday after Pentecost (Trinity Sunday). In our Almanac it is called "Glorification Sunday".

My reply

July 26 would suit me just fine. The heat here is 106. Not fun. It takes my energy.

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FROM CAPS. MARILYN-- Thanks for your comments re the infor. on ELUL. Regarding the issue of Matt. 3:12 ,where Jesus refers to the CHAFF as being burned up with "fire" that cannot be put out please note the following. The tribulation period is often pictured as one of "fire". I believe that a Christian, who is saved-born again, cannot lose their salvation. Yet, they can be chastised.Regarding this particular verse it mentions fire. I don't believe it is talking about Hell.(Yes, there is a real Hell). Note that in Rev. 3:18 the Laodiceans are counselled to "BUY OF ME GOLD TRIED IN THE FIRE".Are they lost because they have to go through the FIRE of the tribulation? No. The same applies to Matt 3:12.The "chaff" is "burned up" in the sense that the "wood ,hay, and stubble" is burned up in I COR. CH 3:12-15.Yet the person shall be saved--"YET SO AS BY FIRE" VS 15. Also in John 15:1-6 Jesus again uses the picture of a "branch" being "cast forth" and being "cast ...into the FIRE,AND ARE BURNED".These were word pictures to point to the need to "abide in the vine".Therefore the "chaff "being burned up does not picture the loss of salvation--just as Rev.3:18 and John.15, and I Cor 3 don't. Remember the CHAFF is part of the WHEAT. The TARES are not part of the wheat.Once the tribulation "fires" start to burn it will continue--it will not be "put out". There will be "weeping and nashing of teeth" for those LAODICEANS (CHRISTIANS) left behind.

I believe you are 100% correct in you understanding of the issue of whether or not a Christian can lose their salvation. Salvation is secure in CHRIST. Rewards are something to be worked for.Unless a person understands this much of the New Testament would seem to contradict itself. In one verse Paul says "it is NOT to him that works or runs "-speaking of salvation- and then in another book say "RUN SO THAT YOU MIGHT OBTAIN THE PRIZE"- for example the Rapture.Thanks again for all your diligent research.God bless. P.S. It just came to me to notice in MATT. 3:12 that the verse actually says "HE will thoroughly purge HIS (I.E. HIS OWN) floor. Truly judgement must begin at the HOUSE of God!! (I Peter 4:17).Let's remember that the WHEAT is gathered into the BARN after the winnowing process is FINISHED.

My reply

Thanks for your input. Yes, the wheat would be put in the barn after winnowing.

> "BUY OF ME GOLD TRIED IN THE FIRE".Are they lost because they have to
> go through the FIRE of the tribulation?

I'm not sure this means the Tribulation. It could mean pure gold, purified by fire. The Tribulation saints are raptured before the mountain and star burning with fire fall--barely. Some small rocks are falling like figs shaken off a tree when they are caught up.

> The "chaff" is "burned up" in the sense that the "wood ,hay, and
> stubble" is burned up in I COR. CH 3:12-15.Yet the person shall be
> saved--"YET SO AS BY FIRE" VS 15.

This passage is talking about "Every man's work," not the person. "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as (symbolic language, as if) by (through) fire."

> Also in John 15:1-6 Jesus again uses the picture of a "branch" being "cast
> forth" and being "cast ...into the FIRE,AND ARE BURNED".These were word
> pictures to point to the need to "abide in the vine".

We need to abide in the vine, but Jn 15:6 says, "If a man abide NOT in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and...burned."

> Remember the CHAFF is part of the WHEAT. The TARES are not part of the wheat.

I have some ripe wheat here in the house. Actually, the chaff is not part of the central wheat kernel. It encloses it loosely. I tried to eat one. Boy, is it hard. I gave that up, afraid I'd hurt my tooth. Bad idea. I think I'd prefer it cracked and cooked.

II Thess. 1:7,8 says, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that KNOW NOT GOD, and that obey NOT the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Read some more in the NKJV today. These caught my eye:

In Mt. 15:12, Jesus said to the Pharisees, "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted." Sounds like tares there.

In the Lord's prayer in Luke 11:4, it says, "And do not lead us into temptation (peirasmon, trial, as in Rev. 3:10), But deliver us from the evil one."

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I have been looking up the Feast of Trumpets for the past 30 minutes. Interesting to note that Nostradamus predicted that the true Messiah would return with a great earth quake at the Feast of Trumpets October 2005. Also saw where the Catholic Encyclopedia explains the Feast of Trumpets was to signal everyone to come to the feast.

To put this all together means:

The last trumpet sounds, heralding the good news of the victory of Christ as the Lamb. Those who are suumoned can go to the marriage feast/supper of the Lamb. How exciting this all sounds to me.

Thank God for Israel and her feast days. They truly are a nation that God has set aside as a reminder of things to come.

My reply

Yes. I Cor. 10:11 says, "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come." All the Old Testament history was not terribly interesting to me until I found out that Israel played out many little dramatic skits to help us understand prophecy.

I put no stock in Nostradamus.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 7-15-98