Pro and Con 157, Uploaded 7-20-98

Incoming Email

Thank you.
I am going to try, but there is no way I could possible thank you enough for all your work. I found your web site last October. I watched and read everything on your web site. At first I would check it once a week, than twice a week. Before long I would check it two and three times a day.

I think I am typical of most of your readers. We have been so busy trying to make a living, loving our families and trying to be good citizens, that we have neglected our Lord, our Savior, but as you and many of your readers know, he never left us. He is always trying to get our attention. Always trying to teach us. Always loving us no matter what we do.

He has used your web site to get my attention. Because of your work, I look at each day as "The Day". I will never be able to understand the scriptures as well as you or some of your email contributors, but the Holy Spirit is guiding me and changing me every day. Because of your work, my wife and I are talking about the Lord in ways we never did before. Because of your work, both of my adult children are talking to me about Jesus. What a thrill it was to find out they are both saved. Because of your work I have been able to copy your pages and send them to my kids and now they are both looking for "The Day". Because of your work, I pray everyday that I, my family and my friends may be worthy enough to be in the first rapture. Because of your work, I am getting the courage to speak to others about our Savior and what it means to be saved. I have not been very successful in changing anyone's mind, but I am trying. Maybe planting a seed. Because of your work, I am thinking of Jesus and our Father everyday. Praying, Praising. Because of your work. I have been "awakened".

Thank you Marilyn. One day soon, so very soon I will tell you that in person. "Because of your work". With Much Love

My reply

Thank you. That makes all my hard work worth while.

Incoming Email

I haven't emailed in a while as I hoped you could get caught up a little and rest. There have been some verses that have been nagging me lately (or maybe its the HS doing the nagging) and I've been wondering what your thoughts are. The first is "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." KJV Matt 27:52-53. The events are: Jesus resurrected, then saints came out of the graves and visited Jerusalem for a while, then Jesus ascended. Who were the saints? Did they ascend to heaven with Jesus? These questions then bring to mind the verse "the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." It seems to me the events of the first verse and the events of the second verse are similar in two aspects, saints arise from the dead and ascend to heaven. Could there again be a time span between the rising of the dead and their ascension at the Rapture? I know this sounds pretty weird, but you say that in Scripture things happen in doubles. I find these verses very unsettling and I'm wondering if those of us who are watching and waiting for the sound of a trumpet or the voice of Jesus as our clue the time has arrived, should be waiting instead for resurrected friends and family to show up. What a wake up call that would be!

Another section of Scripture that is a real puzzle to me is this: Ecclesiastes 3:15 "That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past". If this is a hint to future events, then history should tell us exactly what to expect. God said he has told us all things. History then is our teacher and we need to seriously study and pray to find God's nature and will. The portion of the verse "God requireth that which is past", is there something that God required of his people in the past that is still required before Jesus will return?...

Thank you so much for your diligent study and great web page. I check nearly every day and am very interested in everyone's insight into scripture (and your gentle responses of disagreement). The comments to Mr. Caps and Mr. Fudge make me chuckle. God's love and peace to you

My reply

> Jesus resurrected, then saints came out of the
> graves and visited Jerusalem for a while, then Jesus ascended. Who
> were the saints? Did they ascend to heaven with Jesus?

They had to be Old Testament saints. Jesus took them to heaven on Resurrection Day. Eph. 4:8-10 explains: "he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

> Could there again be a time span
> between the rising of the dead and their ascension at the Rapture

It is possible, but I think its is more probable that it will all happen on one day.

> should be waiting instead for resurrected friends and family to show up.

No. We are not to watch for anyone but Christ.

> is there something that God required of his
> people in the past that is still required before Jesus will return?

Not that I know of.

Incoming Email

If you have time, you might want to read Charles Ryalls recent article, "Beasts Revealed." It is excellent! When I read it, I had the same sort of inward feeling about it that I had when I read your books... chills! It just seems to make a lot of sense and blends all together. See what you think. http://www.yeshuatheking.org/beasts.html

My reply

There is some there that I agree with and some I disagree with. I agree on the UN and disagree on the US. I do not think the Tribulation will start until the Feast of Weeks in 2001. He has it starting after the fall feast days of 1998.

In Rev. 12, I think the man child represents the two witnesses of Rev. 11 instead of Yeshua.

The quotes below are things I copied from his site:

Re: Rev. 12:
> Yes this is the persecution of the church. It began right after Jesus was taken up to  heaven and it
> continues until Jesus comes again and binds Satan for 1000 years at the end of the tribulation.

Rev. 12 is all Mid-Trib to the end. Revelation is written as if the Rapture is at hand. It is "at hand" in 1:3 and 22:10. Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5). Most things from Rev. 4:1 on are after the Rapture. Not all the kings of Rev. 17 are though.

> So now on to the Kings, (Kingdoms) Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet
> come...and will remain for a little while. Here are the kingdoms that were referred to.
>
> Egyptian
> Assyrian
> Babylonian
> Persian
> Greek

I think these kingdoms start with Nimrod at the Tower of Babel, where the Mystery Religion, Mother of Harlot religions started. At the time of the Rapture, five are fallen, (1) Babylon I, (2) Babylon II, (3) Media-Persia, (4) Greece, (5) Roman Empire. One king "is," (6) Ecclesiatic Rome. One king is yet to come, (7) Babylon III, ruled by the False Prophet.

At the beginning of the Tribulation, (6) is Ecclesiastic Rome AND the UN. I expect the Tribulation Pope to be elected Secretary General of the UN and given 10 leaders under him. This will make the nations feel more at ease with the secular power given him since his background is religious. The world will falsely hope that this prince of peace can keep the peace. The UN headquarters will be moved to Babylon, literal Babylon on the Euphrates River, the city that Sadaam Hussein has been rebuilding.

Notice that in Rev. 17:12, at the time of the Rapture, none of the ten kings have kingdoms yet. When they get their crowns is as the Tribulation begins (Rev. 13:1). This shows that there is a gap between the Rapture and the Tribulation.

In the middle of the Tribulation, another Tower of Babel will be ruled by the False Prophet (7) in Babylon III. The "eighth" is Satan himself. He is of the seven and after the catastrophe deposes the False Prophet on the 2300th day of the Tribulation, Satan will act on his own rather than inhabiting the False Prophet.

> Now lets go back to the U.N. It encompasses all the Kingdoms and regions of the earth and is not a
> root empire. It comes up out of the sea (of nations) as John saw.

On this, we agree.

> Here's another point to consider in this. The United States was a part of the British Empire and
> therefore will likely be a part of the 8th Empire or the beast.

On this, I disagree.

> Another interesting bit of information about the U.N. is it's plan to divide the world into
> ten economic regions. This planned division was set up by an organization known as
> the Club of Rome. Mike Belba sent me some information with this list:
>
> 1. Group 1, North America, US and Canada
> 2. Western Europe
> 3. Japan
> 4. Called "Rest of Developed Market
> Economies", includes, Australia, New Zealand Tasmania,
> 5. Eastern Europe, includes Soviet Block Countries
> 6. Latin America, includes South and Central America, this is the block currently being formed, remember Clinton about a month ago went to a huge meeting in Argentina, attended by 34 ministers of all these countries. Mexico was the"test case" (NAFTA)  and is included in this group, watch for all the others to join Mexico soon.
> 7. North Africa and the Middle East
> 8. Main Africa
> 9. South and Southeast Asia
> 10. Centrally Planned Asia, this includes China, North Vietnam and Korea,i.e., the Communist Asian Countries.

On this, we agree.

> Babylon the Harlot is The United  States.

On this I disagree. The Harlot is the World Church headed up by the Tribulation Pontifex Maximus. He moves his headquarters to the World Capital in Babylon when he is made head of the UN, which is also moved to Babylon. The ten kings under the Pope in the UN hate Vatican City and will then burn her. World religion will be all religions under one head, not just the Catholic Church.

This will all happen in just a few short years after the salt that is retarding the growth of the leaven is removed in the Rapture.

Incoming Email

...it looks like our God is operating on a different plan than what we had hoped. I for one, refuse to give up my Blessed Hope. I know that He is still coming for His own soon. We know this is still the "time of the end." It was and is a great wake up call that many needed badly. Now I believe the Lord is testing us to see if we we really love Him or if we will become lukewarm in our love for Him again. Did we wake up only for fear of being left behind and going into the coming Tribulaltion, or because we really love Him? We still love you Marilyn. You have been such a blessing to us all. Please don't ever go away and leave us. In His love

My reply

...When I started, I had no idea how this was going to turn out. It is like we have blinders on but have to keep plowing. We have to trust the Lord to guide us even though we don't know too much about where we are going. We can't see anything but right in front of our eyes. There is much activity around us that we cannot see.

We are still being tested, but a ripe harvest won't wait too long before being harvested. The tares have to be gathered in bundles to burn, then he will gather the wheat into his barn. Let's hope we are proving what we are made of during these important days. We have to keep deep-rooted in Him and just be patient. He knows best. After all, this seems like a short time to Him, and we want to earn the best rewards. I'm in this for the long haul, if that is what it takes.

Incoming Email

I just wanted to say "Hang in there". No other person in this world has taught me more about Bible Prophesy than you! You are a Wonderful Teacher and a very Loving Christian Woman. It is such a nice feeling knowing you are on the Internet and I can ask you a Prophesy question if I need to. What other Bible Prophesy teacher makes themselves that available to the public. You are such a Brave person to go public with your beliefs; much braver than I am. May the Good Lord Bless you for all the hard work that you have done. I sure hope you keep your Web Site going. God Bless you and your family.

  Keep on Keepin on Marilyn. In Jesus Christ's love

Incoming Email

I thought you were on target. I am still waiting and expecting and obeying. Please keep your site. Keep posting your views and opinions. Don't let others get you down. God blessd you, Maranatha

My reply

Thanks. The Lord is faithful. He knows what he is doing, even if we don't.

Incoming Email

Thank you again for the continuing wake up call. You are fulfilling the gift of the Spirit in your love and in your teaching. I have visited two other web sites this past week and am left astounded and saddened at what a state of conflict and confusion the "Church" is in as evidenced by the opinions and interpretations of Scripture. I pray that when He comes he will find Faith in all of them and all of us. That said, I would like to thank you for your loving response to the person who is falling into the post-tribulation / reconstructionist trap in the Pro and Con #156. I don't pretend to be very scholarly, nor do I condemn them to the Laodician camp because, I don't want so many of my friends and family to be there and I surely don't want to be there either (again thank you for the wake-up call) Your responses touch my heart and minister to my spirit. Several of the pre-trib crowd on the net seem to have abandoned ship too, (no-one-knows syndrome), so they occupy by trying to out-Scripture each other especially the prewrath and the Sabbath-keepers only groups. Wow! I followed a "thread on one of the webs to a pamphlet relating to the Pope changing the sabbath and then when it becomes a national law everyone is stuck into ever increasing Tribulation and wrath until all of Rev 6-19 is completed then the Lord comes. Reminds me of a book I read years ago by a "great" Christian author (C.S.Lovett) that would leave most believers despondant of our great hope- the soon coming of our Lord and Savior.

Your responses are salt, light and wisdom, as the answer you gave (#156) shines a beacon on those who are not anxiously getting and keeping right with God and expecting His soon return.
>
> I suspect most students of prophecy see the Parable of the ten Virgens as representing the Bride of Christ, but it is very confusing to me...Please answer your important mail first and if you get a chance I would love to here again from you (you were very kind to respond to my first letter.

P.S. I attend a nom-denom evangelical church regularly and often fellowship at a Messianic congregation in our area, but would not consider myself a sabbath keeper as they define it. God has opened my heart to the Jew and to the people and nation of Israel and I think God has a ton af blessings he wants to give them soon. I see us as a big blip on the cardiogram of Israels heart, but not enough of a jolt to convert it to God's rhythym, so shortly, their Messiah is going to jump off His throne ,grab the paddles, shout "CLEAR" (Christian beleivers Clear Out--Come up here!) then He is going to zap the heart of His beloved people until their heart beats at one with Jesus. Then he will love them again as his first bride and we will witness on a grand scale Joseph revealing himself to his brothers and take them back to their promised land. I can't wait to see the depths of the wonders he has stored up for us. Thank you, Marilyn, May God continue to give you the Spirit of the revelation of the knowledge of Him whom we love.
>
>Copies of earlier emails:

You have been a bright light in my life for the past 3 months. Thank you; don't even be the least bit discouraged!.. Dr. Robert Taylor beleived the Lord was coming every year from '75 to '88 and he beleived he was going in the Rapture every day (or any day) until he died , then his last message to his friends at his graduation was that he was more sure than ever that he was going up, it was ok, because he would now be going up ahead of us who were still alive.
>
> Did you see the incredible hole in the clouds at noon on 5-29-98 over Southern Calif? It was awesome! Could'nt find it on the local news (tv), but it was pretty exciting on KNX radio and later on CNN tv.
>
> Keep your web site alive, it will be a blessing to many, and a witness that true believers don't lose faith in Jesus, because we are watching and praying even more since you stirred up the fire of the Holy Spirit in us. I will be looking forward to more research from you...seems God always has to straighten out the paths or redirect the thinking of His "chosen teachers" Humbly pray that He will fill in gaps and clarify more scripture for you, even open more doors to the richness of His knowledge and depth of His love for us.

One question "haunts" me, aren't the 10 virgens more likely to be bridesmaids than brides? Your identity of them is more intrigueing than most others I have studied. God,s peace and love be with you and your loved ones.

P.S. Marilyn Kremers suggested that Noah was 1 month late in entering the Ark because he was mourning the death of grandfather, Methusaleh? (haven't read her book for over a year, so facts may be hazy)
---
10 VIRGENS
> Dear Marilyn, You have carried the study of Bible Prophecy to a higher level than any person I have studied in 24 years. Don't stop now, as you said, you (we) can be wrong, in some things as long as we are right about Jesus. I have a dilemma that you might help me with. It is about the parable of the 10 virgens. Timewise it seems to follow Jesus' Olivet discourse which seems to me to be a Jewish answer about their kingdom. It follows a time sequence of "When these things happen, then this will happen, then that will happen, and at that time (after) the start of the Trib. it (the Kingdom) is like 10 virgens (Bridesmaids- not Bride) 5 of whom are wise (watching/observing Torah) when the LORD comes to take them to the wedding BANQUET, which may occur at or near the end of the 7 years Trib. so they could be believers watching/observing Torah who will be caught up in the 2nd Rapture?
>
> I have rarely seen 2 eschatologists agree on this parable. Can you help me with this? Keep up your great attitude and faith

My reply

Thanks for all your kind remarks. Sorry to be so long answering. Still have about 288 emails in my Inbox, down from 512. At least here, I can answer 3 in 1.:-) I use a Mac and can't open the cards, but thanks for the nice thoughts. I did not know about the hole in the clouds. Must have been something to make CNN.

I like your "paddles" bit. As the Millennium begins the reluctant nation will be saved in a day. That's a jump start for sure. Wish they could all come to the Lord now and avoid all the troubles to come. They rub each other raw over differing ideas on religion in Israel right now.

Re: parable of the 10 virgins. Remember that even though written to the Jews, this is New Testament stuff. First of all, they are all virgins. To me, that means they are Christians for their sins are forgiven, and in God's eyes, they are as pure virgins. They all have some oil, i.e., the sealing of the Holy Spirit. Some just have more oil than others.

As background, in the book of Esther (which means star, hidden, or secret), we see Vashti (Israel) put aside, a group of virgins gathered together, Esther (Bride of Christ) chosen from among the other virgins (as in the parable). Esther was instrumental in saving the Jews from the death that Haman (Satan) had planned for them. (When asked at the Judgment Seat of Christ, we might say, "Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?, Psa. 115:2) "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come" (I Cor. 12:11).

In Mt. 24:3, the disciples had asked Jesus, "when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)." His answer stretched all the way to the end of the age. The sun and moon darkened, the stars falling from heaven, the Sign of the Son of Man seen as the heavens are rolled away as a scroll, and the gathering of saints "from the uttermost part of the earth (Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven (OT saints and those previously caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture), all these things happen at the end of this age.

When the sixth seal is broken, the sun and moon are darkened, the stars of heaven fall, "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings...and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks...And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:12-17).

In Matthew 24, after sketching events to the end of the age, Jesus answered the part about what would be THE SIGN of his coming in the fig tree parable. Those people who see the fig tree (Israel) grafted into her old roots AND growing leaves (as she did in the Six-Day War of 1967) are the generation to see his coming. This did not happen to the generation living in 30 AD. When we saw these things come to pass, we were to understand that he was "at the doors" (Mt. 24:33, Mk. 13:29). Ezek. 41:23,24 may be an example that suggests two Raptures: "And the temple and the sanctuary had two doors."

When the Rapture is "at hand" (Rev. 1:3; 22:10), an "open door" is set before the Philadelphians (Rev. 3:8), but the Laodiceans face a closed door (Rev. 3:20).

In Luke 21:24-32, we get a bit more of the story. Not only is the fig tree to grow, but "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." "And when these things begin to come to pass (Jerusalem became "one united whole" as a sign, Psa. 122:3,4, New Jerusalem Bible, June 7, 1967), then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh" (i.e., the Rapture draweth nigh).

We are then given warning in view of the Lord's coming, "take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day (the day of "redemption," i.e., the Rapture) come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye (virgins, churches, Philadelphians, Laodiceans) may be accounted worthy (i.e., be wise Philadelphian virgins) to ESCAPE all these things ("abomination of desolation,""stars shall fall from heaven," Mt. 24:15,29, i.e., the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

After the parable of the fig tree in Mt. 24, Jesus went into the time between his standing at the door (Mt. 24:33) and the opening of the door (Mt. 25:10). It was as the days of Noah, some went through the door of the Ark, others did not. Two shall be in the field (world); one will be taken, the other not. The wise servant is to "give them meat in due season," while the evil servant says, "My lord delayeth his coming."

Then in Mt. 24:50,51, Jesus said, "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder (lit., cut him off, i.e., spew him out of his mouth, Rev. 3:16), and appoint him his portion (of the Tribulation) with the HYPOCRITES (and "unbelievers," Lu. 12:46): there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

Remember that statement. Right after it, Jesus said, "THEN (remember that the chapter division was added later) shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins" (Mt. 25:1). I take that to mean at that same time when some are cut off. The thing that follows some being cut off in Luke 12:46,47 is "And that servant, which knew HIS lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." That is like the chastening of the Laodiceans (Rev. 3:19).

A few verses later, in Lu. 12,51,54-57, Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather DIVISION...And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower: and so it is. And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass. Ye HYPOCRITES (as in Mt. 24:51), ye can discern the face of thy sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?"

Right after the parable of the ten virgins, in Mt. 25:14f, Jesus continues, "For the kingdom of heaven (same as at the beginning of the parable of the ten virgins) is as a man travelling into a far country (Heaven), who called HIS OWN servants, and delivered unto them his goods...After a long time the lord of those servants cometh (at the Rapture), and reckoneth with them." He is still talking about the same time when the door opens. He is talking about HIS OWN servants, good and faithful, or not. After talking about the wicked and slothful servant, Jesus said in Mt. 25:30, "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer (outside of doors) darkness (it's "midnight," Mt. 25:6): there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH" (Just as when some are cut off and appointed their portion with the hypocrites and unbelievers in Mt. 24:51). This whole section is bookended by the two "weeping and gnashing of teeth" statements.

Only after that does he go on to his Second Advent, when "the Son of man shall come in his glory" and the Judgment of the Nations (Mt. 25:31,32).

For whatever it is worth, the Greek Peter Michas, whose mother language is Greek, says that the 10 virgins should be translated as the "betrothed brides." I disagree with some things he teaches, but this agrees with what I think this parable is picturing.

We want to be chosen as a Bride like Esther, out of the group of virgins. And, there came a time "when the virgins were gathered together the second time" (Esther 2:19). That seems to indicate the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

All the virgins are sealed until the day of redemption, but the resurrection is in ranks, "every man in his own order (tagmati, rank)" I Cor. 15:23). As someone said, I want to make the first cut.

The Marriage of the Lamb is, I think, on Jesus' birthday, the Feast of Trumpets in 2007, that starts the millennial Day of the Lord. It follows his Coronation in Heaven and his being given his earthly kingdom. The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is after the Judgment Seat of Christ that same day.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 7-20-98