Pro and Con 158, Uploaded 7-22-98

Incoming Email

Thanks for the reply to my letters. Your answers are edifying and uplifting, a bright spot in a week of spiritual confusion the Lord allowed me to stumble into to so that I would seek you out for wisdom. I feel a great peace and unconditional love emanating from you in your respones to the seekers and detractors.

The hole in the clouds was, and still is sort of an enigma to me. I heard it on KNX NEWS (L.A.) about 10:00 AM Fri. 5-29-98. I forgot to check it out until noon in No. County, San Diego. I needed 2 pair of sunglasses to look up into a huge hole in the clouds directly over our house, possibly 100 yards across and seveeral hundred feet deep with a slightly hazy bright sun shining thru a higher layer of clouds in the far center of the hole. About 1/4 of the way up the hole was a perfect halo of a rainbow around the diameter of the hole. By 2 PM it had moved West and disappeared. I showed it to my wife, who also thought it was awesome. I remember saying "Jesus, if that is you, we are ready to go now.

Alas, there was no shout, no trumpet, no dead rising, and most importantly, there was no Jesus in this picture that I could discern. He will tell me what it was (besides a bizzare cluster of sun, clouds and ice crystals) some day. Friends confirmed it was on CNN later that night. I felt that we could have been lifted off the ground at that moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and rocketed to his side in a rapturous state of love, ecstasy and bliss. Well, your web-site explanations give new and not-so-crazy meaning to the phrase " they've got their heads in the clouds" over there at Agees. Good place to be looking around for our soon-coming savior. In His Love always

Incoming Email

I find your page very interesting and am convinced the time is near. Something interesting happened today. I work for a large Financial Bank, in our CIO's roadshow he spoke about the companies direction, but what caught my attention was, he said thinks are going to charge so much in about 5 years time. Technology would have change things so much that we will have to change our mind set, and quoted that technology advancement was not the problem, the problem was people, they have to relise and accept the changes thought the world and the way things would be done. With e-commerce and the internet the whole world is affected on how business would be done across countries.

He said is sound like the book of Revolations and the number 666. With technology going at this pace the entire world will be control by a central point. If people wont accept what you are doing they should look at the times we are living and look at where technology is and is going to.

Regards and best wishes and my the LORD bless and open everyones eyes.

Incoming Email

I pray for strength and encouragement for you, I think you're doing a great job of at least shaking out some lethargy. Commendable - keep it up. You have some fascinating insight into Jewish prophecy.

We differ on some points of doctrine - have you read "Things to Come" by J. Dwight Pentecost (Published by Dunham)? Well worth a read - a number of the issues you are grappling with, particularly the wise and foolish virgins are discussed in some detail - many points of view are considered. If you have not read it, can I urge you to do so. I gather you are a Dispensationalist? ie you do understand that God's plan and dealings with Israel and the Church are separate?...

Also for your encouragement, I felt I should also share a snippet of information with you about the Year 2000 Computer Problem. I am a veteran computeree and I can assure you the recesssion is likely to occur - attached below.

So, God bless you and keep you and your Husband Sister, until He come - MARANATHA! I long to be in the skies and see you there real soon now! Love in Him

My reply

Thanks for nice comments and your prayers.

Yes, I have read Things to Come, but it has been awhile. I can't tell you what he said now. That was many years ago. I have it listed in the Bibliography in my first book.

> I gather you are a Dispensationalist? ie you do understand that God's plan and
> dealings with Israel and the Church are separate?

Yes. I think there are three 2000-year ages, The Age of the Gentiles, The Age of the Jews, and The Age of the Church. I think there are 7 Dispensations: Innocence (40 years), Conscience (1616 years), Human Government (427 years), Promise (430 years), Law (1559 years), Grace (1977 years), and Kingdom (1000 years). This totals 7049 years. Adam's 40 years in the Garden (Dispensation of Innocence) was outside of the 7000 years in which man is tested as mortal and knowing both good and evil. The 9 years, I think, are added between the Pre-Trib Rapture in 1998 and the Pre-Wrath Rapture at the end of this age in 2007. The last 2300 days of this age are the Shortened Tribulation. The remainder of the 7 years is in the millennial Day of the Lord.

Christ planned the ages: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed (katertisthai tous aionas, the ages were planned) by the word of God" (Heb. 11:3). "God...Hath in these last days (i.e., Age of the Church, two 1000-year days) spoken unto us by (en,in) his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (aionas, ages)" (Heb. 1:2).

We are now living in the last complete age in time, the same age in which Christ was crucified. Heb. 9:26 says that once "in the end of the world (sunteleia ton aionon, full end of the ages) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." In this age of the ages are the Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, decent of the indwelling Holy Spirit, completion of Scripture, Pre-Trib Rapture and Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Things happened to Israel for examples to us. Paul said, "they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends (plural) of the world (tele ton aionon, ENDS of the ages) are come" (I Cor. 10:11). The ends of TWO ages, The Age of the Jews, and The Age of the Church, are extended and run concurrently during the Tribulation. Since two ages are extended, the chances are good that The Age of the Gentiles also is extended. Thus, all three ages end in a photofinish as the millennial Day of the Lord begins. In the latter days, there will come a trial upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10), not just on the Gentiles, not just on the Jews, and not just on the Church, but upon the whole world. This trial is the Tribulation. It is judgment. Eccl. 8:5 says, "a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment."

Israel was told early on, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury: and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins" (Lev. 26:27,28). This ties in with the Seventieth Week of Daniel.

The first day of the Millennium, the day the world will be turned upside down, will be Jesus' Long Day, of which Joshua's Long Day was a type. Joshua, from the Hebrew, is Jesus, from the Greek. On that day, the Lord will do a strange thing as at Gibeon in Joshua's time.

Isa. 28:17-22 says, "Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies...your covenant with death (the False Prophet) shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell (Satan) shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it...For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim (which means interval, or gap), he shall be wroth AS IN THE VALLEY OF GIBEON, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act...A CONSUMPTION, EVEN DETERMINED UPON THE WHOLE EARTH."

At Gibeon, "the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew. This will happen again on a larger scale. The mountain burning with fire of Rev. 8:8 will be cast into the Mediterranean Sea. The star (aster, asteroid) burning with fire of Re. 8:10 will be cast down from heaven and destroy Babylon on the Euphrates (Rev. 18:21). This is the Lord's "strange act." It will cause a worldwide earthquake. Every wall will fall. The Lord's fury will come up in his face when Gog's army attacks Israel (Ezek. 38:18).

Mt. 13:39-42 says, "The enemy that sowed them (the tares) is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (sunteleia tou aionos, CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (sunteleia tou aionos toutou, CONSUMMATION OF THIS AGE). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of HIS KINGDOM (the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord) all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire."

We have to rightly divide the word of truth (II Tim. 2:15).

The extra nine years of this age, on our calendar, are ten years on the Jewish calendar, 5758 to 5768, the years of the two Raptures. I think these years are portrayed by the "ten" days of Gen. 24:55, when Rebekah had a choice of going to Isaac right away or ten days later. The word for days here can mean day, season, age, space of time. Also "ye shall have tribulation ten days" of Rev. 2:10 fits. The word for days here can mean season, time, days, years, the meaning to be determined by the context. This ties in with Dan. 1:12, "Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days."

The difference between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the start of the 2300 days of the Tribulation seem to be indicated by the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9.

Incoming Email

...It occurred to me that you are "hanging" an awful lot of importance to the barren fig tree parable. What if --- there is no four-year gap? How would this alter [or not alter] your thinking? Just curious!

If there is no four-year gap, we might be waiting until the Tribulation begins on Pentecost in 2001. However, at that time, Rev. 11 shows that the temple is there. When would there be enough time for it to be built?

Also, in Rev. 17:12, the ten kings have no kingdom as yet. That is at the time of the Rapture for Rev. is written as if viewed when the Rapture is at hand. Yet, as the Tribulation begins in Rev. 13, those ten kings have crowns. It seems to me that there has to be a gap.

Incoming Email

I would like to tell the person in pro and con 144 that I am curious why she/he thinks that evolution is a lie because I disagree. I know that humans may possibly not have evolved at all or did evolve but I do not know about that but in other animals like dinosaurs and birds and reptiles and the creatures of God's kingdom probably were evolved but the answer lies in genesis. The reason why I don't believe that much in creationism is because how do you create creatures from scratch from your head maybe imagination? Well look at it this way. The people back then were much simpler than us, complex creatures. I challenge you to try to explain evolution to them. But they would probably not understand that. Simple people need simple words and explanations. Think about it.

A book proving something? Words are circumstantial evidence. Bones are not. In Christ

My reply

I don't quite understand how you can sign off, "In Christ" and not believe the Bible is true, a book you can prove something by. God decided that man would be tested by being required to obey God even though he could not see Him. For it to be a fair test, He gave us an instruction book to go by. If you throw it out, you are at sea without a paddle, pushed around by every wind of false doctrine. You have no basis to know what is right and what is wrong. In other words, you're in trouble. Satan can fool you easily for you have nothing to compare anything with, no anchor at all. You find a bone; you can make it mean anything your heart desires.

Evolution is Satan's lie. It doesn't even make sense, but without your Bible, you don't know the difference. You are told that man in Adam's day was simple. You believe it because you don't have your guide book that will tell you whether that is truth or a flight of fancy. You can't check it out. You probably think of Adam talking with the Lord in the cool of the evening in grunts like some animal. Yet, the same 24-hour day that Adam was created, the animals were created and brought to Adam to name. You bet, the answer is in Genesis, but you have missed it.

> The reason why I don't believe that much in creationism is because how do you create
> creatures from scratch from your head maybe imagination?

You have got to have a lot more moxy than chance has. That is for sure. If you, a very complex creature, can't create a mouse, how do you think chance can? If you can't create an butterfly's eye, how do you think chance can? If you can't change the number of hairs that grow in your head or even the color by thinking about them, don't you realize that there is some power out there that is a lot smarter and more powerful than you are? Could you design the bone structure and ligaments that could support the tremendous weight of a dinosaur? Could you plan how to give him the muscle structure that would allow him to move that weight around? Could you even plan the food chain? or design your own nervous system?

God created this world and everything in it. Give credit where credit is due. Those like you are without excuse "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:19,20).

This Christ that you believe in, who is he really? "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (II Cor. 5:19). Christ is "the Word," and "the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life" (John 1:1-3). Are you going to say that there was something made that he didn't make?

Please stop and think things through for yourself. Don't let yourself be led astray by default. Use your head. Christ is the creator himself. "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). While on Earth, he healed the sick, made the blind see, raised people from the dead. He knew people's thoughts. He knew things from a distance. He could make a boy's small lunch feed 5000 people. He showed you what he could do. Just because you don't understand how he did it does not change the fact that he had the power and intelligence to do it.

I would appreciate it if you would give this some serious thought and get back to me.

If you don't see things evolving today, why do you think they evolved in the past?

Incoming Email

Israel in the News - July 12-18, 1998 (
From: Eddie Chumney To:


Stan Deyo's e-mail 7/16/98

For Art Bell listeners, Stan called into the program 2 nights ago to discuss some of the startling things we are hearing/reading about El Nino. . . After Stan finished, Malachi Martin was interviewed for the remainder of the show. One interesting thing that occurred during the Malachi Martin interview was the discussion of the "Third Secret of Fatima."

While Malachi Martin himself would not reveal what was specifically in the secret, he did state he would confirm if someone called in with correct information. This would not violate his confidentiality vow. Several people did send in documents claiming to be THE secret. Several had elements of truth in them, some did not.

Hours into the show, Stan faxed the following message through during the interview: "Art - I had a Jesuit priest tell me more of the 3rd Fatima secret years ago in Perth... Re: last pope would be under control of Satan. Pope John fainted thinking it might be him. We were interrupted before I could hear the rest. Stan."

Stan's conversation with the Jesuit priest transpired 24 years ago and he never forgot the horror of the content. Actually, what was told to Stan was even worse than what was faxed to Art, but the important thing to know is that Malachi Martin CONFIRMED it.

Incoming Email plus My Reply

> > Sorry, but to me I can't understand how someone could think the mountain burning
> > with fire, the star burning with fire, and the visible return of Christ that will
> > be seen by every eye, has already happened.

> Marylin, Thank you for responding. I truly love having mature conversations
> with people who believe so differently than myself, so please do not
> confuse my determination with despite.
> I will not defend each point of your letter, as we are both quite
> sure of our positions. I would like to simply introduce an idea to
> you: historical substantiation.
> You may not be as aware of the history of the Roman-Jewish war as you
> imagine. Keeping in mind that all of these events took place within the
> generation that heard Christ say "This generation shall not pass, till
> all be fulfilled" (Luke 21:32),

***From Marilyn: History will not support that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, not by a long shot. The passage you quoted in Luke 21:32 is part of the fig tree parable. It refers to the generation that saw modern Israel grafted back into her old roots and growing in 1967. This is the generation that will see the end of Daniel's seventy weeks. Dan. 9:24 says, "Seventy weeks (weeks of years) are determined upon thy people (Israel) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make and end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." If this took place in 70 AD, why do we have jails? Why was Jerusalem and the temple not immediately rebuilt? Where is the "everlasting righteousness" that was to be brought in?

***Jesus scolded the scribes and Pharisees and said, "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation (living in 30 AD). O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall NOT SEE ME henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Mt. 23:35-39). As a nation, Israel has not said this yet today. Therefore, he has not yet returned.

***In Hosea 5:15; 6:1-3, it says, "I (the LORD) will go and return to my place (Heaven), till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. (Now Israel speaks) COME, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, an he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days (two 1000-years days) will he revive us: in the third day (millennium) he will raise us up (fulfilled in 1948), and we shall live in his sight. Then (after Israel was back in the land) shall we know, if we follow on (to 1967's Sign of the End of the Age) to know the LORD: HIS GOING FORTH (both Advents) is prepared as the morning; and HE SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, as the latter (Nisan 1), and former (Tishri 1) rain unto the earth." Jesus was born Tishri 1, the time the former rains begin in Israel. He will return on Nisan 1, the time the latter rains begin in Israel. This was promised in De. 11:14: "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain and the latter rain." Nisan 1 is confirmed in Ezek. 29:17,21. It says, "in the first month, in the first day of the month...In that day will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth." In 70 AD, the so-called return of Christ in the clouds was not on Nisan 1.

> the following historical accounts appear quite significant. They are also quite able to
> fulfill the requirements for the concepts you raised above:
> Regarding the mountain of fire, it is beyond question that this is
> found in the Roman-Jewish war, when no less a mountain was on fire, than
> mount Zion! I cannot believe that a person would think that the burning
> of mount Zion has no prophetic significance.

***I am acquainted with what Josephus recorded and with what took place from 66 to 70 AD in Jerusalem. No matter what happened on top of Mt. Zion, the prophecies were not all fulfilled then. The temple mount did not fall from the sky and land in the Mediterranean Sea. Rev. 8:8 says, "a great mountain burning with fire was CAST INTO THE SEA." Was Mt. Zion cast into the sea? When this happens, "Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast" (Zeph. 2:4,5). "Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea...and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake" (Ezek. 38:19,20). Was there a worldwide earthquake in 70 AD?

> Various Historians on the Witnessing of a Literal "Coming in the Clouds of Heaven"
> Josephus, a Jewish general present at the destruction of Jerusalem,
> wrote of the coming in the clouds as such:
> Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one-
> and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious
> and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would
> seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were
> not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to
> deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of
> soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and
> surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost,
> as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple,
> as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said
> that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise,
> and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let
> us remove hence" (Wars, VI-V-3).

***That means leaving, not coming.

> Tacitus, the Roman historian, relating the same events, wrote:
> "In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering
> armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The
> doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to
> declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the
> rushing tumult of their departure" (Histories, v. 13).
> Eusebius, quoting from the Latin Josephus, in the fourth century:
> "For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen
> throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and
> encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch.8).
> BTW, the comet mentioned was no less than Halley's! So, obviously,
> we have much important stuff going on, all within the lifetime of those
> that were standing next to Jesus when He said, "There be some standing
> here which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming
> in His kingdom."

***Peter, James and John SAW the Transfiguration. John SAW the Second Coming in Rev. 19:11-16.

> I hope that now you can "understand how someone could think the
> mountain burning with fire, the star burning with fire, and the visible
> return of Christ that will be seen by every eye, has already happened,"
***I can't. Besides, when the "great star (aster, asteroid) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" (Rev. 8:10) falls on literal Babylon, it is "a stone like a great millstone" (Rev. 18:21). The city is destroyed utterly, never to be inhabited again. Has this happened? No. Sadaam Hussein has been rebuilding the city.

> as there is more hard proof before your eyes, than a mountain of
> conjecture about the future. No offense intended, just a bit of a
> wake-up call desired. All I am asking is that you do some more study
> about the first century before writing preterism off- especially
> considering your influence over hoards of people who are doing far less
> study than yourself. That is our responsibility as teachers of the
> Word, in my opinion.

***I have studied it, and can't see how you can believe it. This would be a better world if Christ was already in command as King of kings and Lord of lords. You are fooling yourself. Love in Christ

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 7-22-98