Pro and Con 159, Uploaded 7-23-98

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Evolution revisited
To the misguided person in P/C 158 who takes evolution as gospel while purporting to be Christian:

Humans did not evolve. God in his infinite wisdom created us and all other life on earth. There have been adaptations within some species, but no animal has ever evolved from another. Believe it or not my friend, God can create creatures "from scratch." Personally, I don't believe the "people back then were much simpler than us, complex creatures." They may have lived simpler lives, but I think we are basically the same as they were, sinning in the same ways, having the same emotions, fears, worries, etc. The only thing that has changed is technology. How can I "explain evolution to them" when they are all dead and when I don't believe it in the first place? Evolution is a religion created by those who refuse to believe that God supernaturally created the earth and every living thing in it. Almighty God in his heaven just laughs at the foolishness of these men. "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" 2 Timothy 4:3. Yes, my misguided friend, books really do prove arguments. If, as you say, words are circumstantial evidence, then by definition, this evidence can prove an argument. There are millions of books and papers in the world in addition to the Bible which do just that, not to mention the many court cases which have been won on such evidence. In your own words, bones are not circumstantial evidence. That much of your argument I agree with; mainly, the bones found on the earth do not provide enough details to prove evolution's hypothesis. Bible Believer

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I have been studying End Times Prophecy for about 3 years and have studied many different interpetations of the same. The prophecies of Dumitri Dudman just strengthen one of the things I have studied ,that is the US might be Babylon and will be destroyed by the wrath of God. I want to ask you to read REV,18 with this in mind and see if you come to the same conclusion.

Therefore shall her plauges come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine;and she shall be utterly burned with fire : for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. REV, 18:8.

My reply

No. I do not think Babylon could possible be the US. In Rev. 17:5, it is talking about "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." It is so important, it is capitalized in the Bible. This Mystery Religion of Babylon started with Nimrod, Semiramus and Tammuz at the Tower of Babel in Babylon. It was headed up by a Pontifex Maximus. Right now the Pontifex Maximus is in Rome heading up the mixture of the Mystery Religion and Christianity. However, after the Rapture and during the Tribulation, the Tribulation Pope will, I think, be made head of the World Church AND World Government. His headquarters will be moved to literal Babylon, which Saddam Hussein has been rebuilding. Towers will be built and both Vatican City and the United Nations headquarters will be moved to the new capital city of the world.

Zech 5:5-11 explains the move: "What is it?...This is an Ephah that goeth forth." An ephah is the largest wheat measure, and we are called wheat. "He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth." In other words, this is the World Church. "This is wickedness...and, behold, there came out two women (church groups)...they had wings...and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven....Whither do these bear the ephah? And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar (where the Tower of Babel was started): and it shall be established, and set there UPON HER OWN BASE."

This is the same woman in both Rev. 17 and 18. Rev. 17:4,18 says, "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls....And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." Rev. 18:16 says, "that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!" After Vatican City has become the World Church and has been moved to Babylon, her bridges will be burned. There will be no going back. "And the ten horns (kings under the Pope in the World Government), which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked (the move completed), and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire" (Rev. 17:16).

This city on the Euphrates will be destroyed by the "great star (aster, asteroid) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" (Rev. 8:10). The "stone like a great millstone" will destroy her completely with violence, which has never happened before, "and shall be found no more at all." She exists now, so this is still future.

"And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the CHALDEES' excellency (not the US's), shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah (hit by an asteroid and totally wiped out). It shall NEVER be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there....I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts (Christ, on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord), and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant...I will sweep it with the besom of destruction....and...I will break the Assyrian in my land (Israel)" (Isa. 13:19,20; 14:22-25). The "great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea" (Rev. 8:8), the Mediterranean, to stop Gog's army that is attacking Israel. Both pieces of what may be a binary asteroid like Toutatis impact at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5; Job 20:23).

I think it will hit on the Feast of Trumpets in 2007, 40 years after Israel took the temple area in 1967. "And the song of the temple shall be howlings in that day...there shall be many dead bodies in every place" (Amos 8:3). "BEHOLD, the LORD maketh the EARTH empty, and maketh it waste (as in Gen. 1:2), and TURNETH IT UPSIDE DOWN, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants...because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore HATH THE CURSE DEVOURED THE EARTH, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are BURNED, AND FEW MEN LEFT" (Isa. 24:1,5,6). "I will shake the HEAVENS, and the EARTH SHALL REMOVE OUT OF HER PLACE, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts" (same as "the wrath of the Lamb" in Rev. 6:16; therefore, the LORD of hosts is Christ) (Isa. 13:13).

Conditions will be so bad, that if the Lord did not hold the Earth together, it might fly apart as Satan's planet, Rahab, did when the asteroid belt was formed. The Lord promised, "When the earth totters, and all the inhabitants of it, it is I who will poise and keep steady its pillars" (Psa. 75:3, Ampl.).

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FROM CAPS: I want to thank you for posting my comments re the 12th chapter of Rev.--even though you did not agree with them. I want to indicate a few more details of this chapter and then move on to something else.I would encourage you to consider seriously the infor. presented. No ,it is not necesssary for us to agree. Yet, if I am correct then it does affect the correct understanding of certain end time events--especially those mentioned in Rev. As I mentioned in p/c 155 there are TWO levels of discussion going on in Rev. ch 12. ONE is in HEAVEN and the other is on EARTH. Unless this is understood then it will be impossible to correctly understand this chapter. Remember in vs. 1 it tells us ahead of time this is a "GREAT WONDER". I would say it is "strong meat". In your response you mentioned that "this woman does not flee to Heaven, she flees to the wilderness,where she has a place (Petra) prepared of God..." Yet a close reading of the text indicates that the WOMAN appears IN HEAVEN starting in vs. 1.."There appeared in HEAVEN a great wonder: a WOMAN clothed..."Please notice very carefully that Rev.12:1-12 all occur IN HEAVEN!.Therefore when the man child is caught up to heaven it should be clear that the woman--WHO IS ALREADY IN HEAVEN- flees to the "wilderness" with the man child.Notice the clear progression of events.After the man child is caught up TO HEAVEN the next thing that occurs in vs. 7 is WAR IN HEAVEN---NOT on earth.In vs.7-9 the war results in the Dragon(can we agree on who he is?) being cast out INTO THE EARTH. VS.10 -12 continue with the rejoicing in HEAVEN as a result of the dragon being cast out. NOW AND ONLY NOW DOES THE SCENE shift to the earth in vs.13 To summarize: The chapter starts off in HEAVEN, the man child is CAUGHT UP to HEAVEN (NOT PETRA) AND AFTER THIS ,THE WOMAN WHO NOW HAS THE MAN CHILD "caught up to God and his throne," flees to the wilderness---all of this occuring IN HEAVEN. The rest of the chapter from vs 13-17 occurs ON EARTH. You see, there is a physical and a spiritual Israel. Note that the woman in vs 13 is now on the earth. How can she be both places--in heaven and on earth? Because the woman in heaven is JERUSALEM ABOVE THE MOTHER OF US ALL.SEE GALATIANS 4:26 " BUT JERUSALEM WHICH IS ABOVE IS FREE, WHICH IS THE MOTHER OF US ALL".

At this point the rapture of the church has occurred. The scene now shifts to PHYSICAL ISRAEL.Just as the SPIRITUAL ISRAEL--the church--"flees" to a PLACE PREPARED OF GOD--SEE JOHN 14-- the physical nation(some, not all) flee to a wilderness on the earth! Notice that the dragon cannot attack the church in heaven--only on earth. Yes the physical nation of Israel also in one sense "brought forth the man child" as far as the physical nation He descended from. Finally, in vs.17 the dragon after attacking the physical nation of Israel then turns to attack the "remnant of her seed ...who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". Who are these ? I believe they are converted Christians--either Laodiceans left behind or tribulation converts.Well, there you have it. I know it may be hard to accept. Remember Rev. 11: 15-18 clearly indicate the second return of Jesus. Yes ch 12 is after the rapture in 4:1 but is also after the conclusion ot the 7 seals and 7 trumpets. It is the START OF THE STORY AGAIN FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE. Otherwise it would be difficult to explain the reason some events are mentioned twice such as the 144,000 and the 7 VIALS which are a RE- STATING of the wrath of the 7 trumpets. As mentioned in the last p/c155 the GREEK supports strongly the rapture in Rev 12:5. We should not be surprised that the book of Rev. would use a "double analogy" .Paul used an allegory in the book of Galatians--and we are notified at the start of Rev. ch 12 that this is a "great wonder"--i.e. something that might be hard to understand! God Bless. CAPS. P.S. Last night I saw something in the Old Testament that more clearly gives the timing of the RAPTURE than anything else I've ever seen. Will send information on it next.

My reply

Rev. 12 starts out, "A great an wondrous SIGN (semeion) appeared in heaven." Then it says, "Then another SIGN appeared in heaven." This doesn't mean that the woman was in Heaven" (NIV). The SIGN appeared in the heavens. (Now back to the KJV.)

When "the heaven departed as a scroll" (Rev. 6:14), "then shall appear the SIGN (semeion)of the Son of man in heaven" (Mt. 24:30). Rev. 15 starts out with, "AND I saw another SIGN (semeion) in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues." These are all signs.

Rev. 11:1-9 takes us from the rising of the Tribulation to the middle of it. Rev. 12 takes us from the middle to the end of the Tribulation. Each half has 1260 days. In Rev. 11, it is talking about Israel. In Rev. 12, it is talking about Israel. If the woman was literally a group in Heaven, she would NOT have "cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered." But a group on Earth was going through the Tribulation.

At the mid-point, Satan is cast out of Heaven down to Earth, enters into the False Prophet, sits in the temple, places an idol, demands worship, and kills the two witnesses because they will not worship him. When those who know their Bibles see the abomination of desolation at the temple, they flee "into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God" (Petra) (Rev. 12:6). How would you know if there was any such thing as a wilderness in Heaven? Anyway, 12:12 says, "rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the EARTH, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child." If Satan is on Earth, he cannot persecute a woman in Heaven. She must also be on the Earth. "And the EARTH helped the woman" (12:16) by opening her mouth and swallowing up the flood the dragon cast out of his mouth. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make WAR (not allowed any more in Heaven) with the remnant." (12:17).

The woman is Israel, and on the Earth. If she was not on the Earth, her child would not have needed to be "caught up unto God, and to his throne" (12:5). He would already have been in Heaven.

> the "remnant of her seed ...who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". Who are these ? I
> believe they are converted Christians--either Laodiceans left behind or tribulation converts.

They are Messianic Jews that have accepted Yeshua as their Messiah.

> Remember Rev. 11: 15-18 clearly indicate the second return of Jesus. Yes ch 12 is after
> the rapture in 4:1 but is also after the conclusion ot the 7 seals and 7 trumpets.

It is not AFTER the seals and trumpets. Rev. 11:14-19 is a scene at the end of this age, on the 2300th day of the Shortened Tribulation. It is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, when Christ is given his earthly kingdom. It is the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is the Day of God's Wrath, the Feast of Trumpets. We have to look for the match points to see where it is placed chronologically. At this point, the Second Coming is still seven months in the future (Ezek. 39:12). This is the day of "thick darkness" (Joel 2:1,2). The day of Christ's return is not "dark" (Zech 14:5-7).

> the GREEK supports strongly the rapture in Rev 12:5.

I don't think so. Green's Interlinear translates the Greek words thus: "And she brought forth a son male, who is about to SHEPHERD all the nations with rod an iron: and was caught away her child to God and his throne." This makes very good sense if Moses and Elijah are to sit on the right and left of Christ.

Can't wait to see what you found about the Rapture. God bless your studies.
[i] Glad to see that you are searching the deep mysteries, oh that more would. I am a post-tribber myself, though admittedly I have not done the amount of study you have, I have difficulty seeing a pre-trib rapture scenario in scripture, I am not here to debate, I am willing to change my view [ I like yours better :) ] if the evidence warrants it. Could you point me to what you consider to be the most powerful evidence that the church will not endure the great tribulation? Thank you
[r] Luke 21:25,26 lists things that will take place during the Tribulation. Verses 29-32 give the fig tree parable, and says, "know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." ("He is so near, He is at the door," Mt. 24:33, Berkeley Version). Verses 34-36 say, "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY (i.e., the day of the Rapture) come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE (ekpheugo, to vanish from) all these things that shall come to pass (i.e., things of the Tribulation), and to stand before the Son of man."

You want to stand before him as in the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1:13: "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks (the seven churches) one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle."

Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial, i.e., the Tribulation), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

In Rev. 4:1, the door is opened in heaven, and John (who is one of the 24 elders) acted out the Rapture. He is told to "Come up hither." (The word church does not appear again in Revelation until 22:16.) Then John is told "things which must be hereafter" (i.e., after the Rapture). Everything else in Revelation takes place after the Rapture. The 24 elders seen in heaven in Rev. 4 and 5 represent the entire group of believer priests just as the 24 priests on duty at the temple represented all the priesthood. The elders "sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (5:9).

Even the Old Testament tells it. Isa. 57 1,2 says, "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY, none considering that the righteous is TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness."

Their beds are in Heaven. Psa. 149:5-9 says, "Let the saints be joyful IN GLORY: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen (in the Tribulation), and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron: To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD."

"At destruction and famine thou shalt laugh: neither shalt thou be afraid of the beasts (the Beast and False Prophet) of the earth. For thou shalt be in league with the stones of the field: and the beasts of the field shall be at peace with thee. And thou shalt know that thy tabernacle shall be in peace; and thou shalt visit thy habitation (Heaven), and shalt not sin" (Job 5:22-24).
[i] Revelations seals, trumpets and bowls:
Thanks again for all your hard work and patience with those who write in (me included). I agree with you on many subjects. The Bible is confusing and difficult on some subjects, but that is not a reason to not try to understand them. And, making a prediction (or more appropriately making a statement about what something looks like to you) is not the same as stating that something is a prophecy from God. And, it is certainly not adding to the bible!

I have been studying the bible since 1948 and have been specifically interested in the prophecies of the bible. One of the things that I have noticed, and I am sure you know, is that the bible repeats or reafirms itself. Also, sometimes the writer is like an artist painting a picture. First with an outline and then filling in details in later verses. For example, in Revelation:
1.Take the seven seals and line them up on the left with a brief explaination of what happens when they are openned, and
2. Take the seven trumpets and a brief explaination of what happens when they sound in the middle of the page, and
3. Take the seven bowls with a brief explaination of what happens when they are poured out on the earth on the right side of the page and then line them up.

You can see that it is likely that they are the same events, i.e. the seal is broken by Jesus in heaven, the trumpet is sounded on earth (by the witnesses in the first 3.5 years and probably an angel in the last 3.5 years) and the angel in heaven pours out that bowl of God's wrath. (Example see third trumpet and bowl, falling star with rivers, fountains turning to blood & sixth trumpet and bowl = the four angels/spirits at the Euphrates, etc.)

One subject that I really think that you need to rethink is the two rapture theory. You keep saying that the Laodiceans had to be christians for Christ to put them in his mouth, then spew them out. There is no basis for that thought. It is less likely for one who was in his mouth and spit out to (uck) be refound and then put in his mouth a second time and swallowed. It seems clear to me that the 7th church is rejected because it is the "scarlet harlot", but outside the established "church" you have a picture of individual believers accepting Christ (Rev. 3:20-21) to assure us that there will be salvation available to individuals during the tribulation period.

Believers rejecting the mark of the beast and being beheaded for their belief are those who Jesus said would lose their life for him but their life would be returned to them vs. those who would try to save their life (take the mark)and lose it.

And, PS the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah. Don't bad mouth the book of Enoch, it is not scripture but neither is the newspaper, but both same some truths in them. Some of Enoch is in scripture (Jude v 14-15) and if you look at the verses in Enoch before and after those Jude quoted they provide some insight. Together in Christ
[r] Re: seals, trumpets and vials/bowls. After the Pre-Trib Rapture in Rev. 4:1, Jesus, in Rev. 5, is given the book, or scroll, sealed with seven seals. Right after that, in Rev. 6, he opens the first seal. This is the beginning of the Tribulation, when the false prince of peace rides forth on his white horse. The opening of the seals is spread from the beginning of the Tribulation to the Day of God's Wrath at the end of the shortened Tribulation, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. This is the day the Father gives the earthly kingdom to the Son. "And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him" (Dan. 7:14).

I think the trumpets all come nearly at once when the seventh seal is broken. Both the "great mountain burning with fire" (Rev. 8:8) that impacts in the Mediterranean Sea and the "great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" that destroys Babylon on the Euphrates strike at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5; Job 20:23). The asteroid striking Babylon opens "the bottomless pit" (Rev. 9:2) and forms the Lake of Fire. Babylon is destroyed in one "hour" when the "stone like a great millstone" (Rev. 18:21) impacts Earth.

The destruction is at first partial, as when "the third part of the sea became blood: And the THIRD part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died" (Rev. 8:9). However, as more time passed, the effects mushroom. By the time of the second vial, the sea "became as the blood of a dead man: and EVERY living soul died in the sea" (Rev. 16:3).

You can tell that there is some time lapse between the trumpets and vials for when the fourth trumpet sounds, "the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened" (Rev. 8:12). By the time of the fourth vial, the sun scorches "men with fire (Rev. 16:8).

> One subject that I really think that you need to rethink is the two rapture theory.

To me, Scripture is clear on it. One group goes in Rev. 4:1, everything else happens "hereafter." So the saints seen before the throne of God in Rev. 7:14,15, get there "hereafter" the Pre-Trib Rapture. They come "out of great tribulation," but they get to Heaven before the seven trumpet judgments hit in chapter 8. Therefore, theirs is the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

> You keep saying that the Laodiceans had to be christians for Christ to
> put them in his mouth, then spew them out. There is no basis for that thought.
> It is less likely for one who was in his mouth and spit out to (uck) be
> refound and then put in his mouth a second time and swallowed.

It's picture is even worse than that. The word "spue" is literally "vomit." They seem to be in the stomach, unassimilated. In Luke 12:46, it says, "The lord of that servant (who was a Christian for he said "My lord delayeth his coming") will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him off), and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." This is why Jesus Christ is seen in the Preview of the Rapture with a "sharp twoedged sword" (Rev. 1:16) coming out of his mouth. The lukewarm without white garments will be cut off. However, in their tribulation, they will come to him early. They will wash their garments in the blood of Christ. He will accept them back just as the prodigal son was welcomed back. As a feast was prepared for him, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be attended by all saints, even the Tribulation saints.

> It seems clear to me that the 7th church is rejected because it is the "scarlet harlot"

There is more chance that the world church is headed up by Thyatira. Rev. 2:20-23 says, "I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication (joining together), and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication ; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into GREAT TRIBULATION, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death."

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Updated 7-23-98