Pro and Con 1626

Posted 8-15-2011


I was thrilled to see one in action; and that was just supposed to evolve? From what? No way

Very unusual to see them both at the same time: "Tornado and Rainbow Over Kansas"

Palestinian FM says that Mahmoud Abbas will personally present Palestinian bid for full UN membership at General Assembly meeting in New York on SEPTEMBER 20:

Found! King Solomon’s Wall

By Brad Macdonald, Aug 2011

"These archeological discoveries rank among the most important ever made...because they prove the Bible accurate!."

My reply to a post on Five Doves, Re: Gerry Almond: PROPHETIC YEARS

> > There is NO verse in the Bible that states in words that the prophetic year is 360 days. The reasons for my believing (actually knowing) this to be true are below.


> > The Daniel prophecy of the 70 weeks (of years) in chapter 9 was to total 490 years. This time was to be divided between 69 weeks and then Messiah would be “cut off” and 1 week which would come later. It was to begin, according to Daniel 9:24 “from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem”. It is agreed by scholars that the command here stated occurred on Nisan 1, B. C. 445. That is 14 March B. C. 445 on our calendar. From the decree, exactly 483 years of 360 days each arrived at 6 April A. D. 32, the date of crucifixion, the day Messiah was cut off. This represents 69 prophetic years.

I think you have the wrong year for the Crucifixion, so it skews your figures. Herod started to build the Temple in 19/20 BC. It had been under construction 46 years in 27 AD, the first Passover of Jesus' ministry. After much study, I think the Crucifixion was Thur, Nisan 13, 3790, April 6, 30 AD (Julian). What throws some people off is figuring the 15th year of Tiberius as 28 AD, when it should be 26 AD. Tiberius was Co-Rex in 12 AD. I found a coin minted in 13 AD that had Tiberius on one side and Augustus on the other side. Tiberius took care of Judea. Augustus busied himself elsewhere.

To me, there is no such thing as a prophetic year of 360 days. A 360-day year is estimated time. So is a 30-day month or a 12-month year. We still use estimated time today to enable us to give ballpark estimates quickly.

The actual days in a year on the Hebrew Calendar are 353, 354, 355, 383, 384 or 385. None are 360. The average is 369. Jewish months actually alternate between 29 and 30 days.

Think about Noah. Gen 7:24 says, "And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days." Some divide that by 30 and declare that to be five 30-day months. Noah did the same thing during the first five months in the Ark. Why? because he couldn't SEE the Moon. All he could do was count the days.

Notice that later, when he could see the Moon and figure the exact date, we are given exact dates. Gen 8:4 says, "And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat."

1260 and 1290 days are estimated time. So is "a time, and times, and half a time" (3.5 years). Rev 12:14 says, "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place (i.e., Petra), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." In Mt 24:22, we are told that the last half of the Tribulation is to be shortened, or no flesh would be saved.

According to Dan 8:13,14, the Tribulation will last 2300 days. These seem to be literal days. When counting 2300 days, we have to be careful. A block of time is to be counted inclusively. The first day is counted as day 1. We would say day 1 on the next day.

It seems to me that the Tribulation, when they can sacrifice and when they can't will total 2300 days, maybe from May 29, 2009 (Pentecost) to Sept 14, 2015 (Feast of Trumpets), counted inclusively. If so, the Lord will come for us soon. I'm hoping it will be Trumpets, Sept 29, 2011. There will be three comets in the sky. Elenin will be between Earth and Sun, and its coma is huge. The body inside will be much smaller, but will be hidden from us by its coma. Agape

My reply to a post on Five Doves, Re: Gerry Almond (11 Aug 2011) "RAPTURE IS A SUMMER EVENT, IS IT NOT?"

> > In Matthew 24, Jesus indicated that the rapture event is when the fig tree is bloomed. He said this in verses 32 and 33, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree: When its branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that SUMMER (caps mine) is near; So likewise when ye see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." (KJV) No mention of the Fall season here.

> > This seems to militate against a Rosh Hashana rapture inasmuch as this day is in the FALL.

We have to read the Fig Tree Parable carefully. Mt 24:32-34 says, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree (I.e., Israel, Joel 1:6,7); When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting, i.e., modern Israel grafted into her old roots) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e., no more than 19, which she was in 1967), and putteth forth leaves (Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, West Bank and Sinai in the Six-Day War), ye know that summer is nigh (i.e., the Six-Day War was June 5-10; summer started June 21): 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (i.e., the Rapture) is near, even at the DOORS. 34 Verily I say unto you, This GENERATION (i.e., born in 1967) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

The "doors" stand for the 2 Raptures, the First-Trump Rapture and the Last-Trump Rapture. Re the first one, see Rev 3:8.
Of the first Rapture group, Rev 3:8 says, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an OPEN DOOR, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name." If Heaven's door is opened at the First-Trump Rapture, it will be opened at the Last-Trump Rapture.

According to Mt 1:17, a generation is 48.33 years. 48.33 years from the Six-Day War brings us to Tishri 1, 5776, Sept 14, 2015. That is probably the Day of God's Wrath, the day of the Last-Trump Rapture, the first day of Christ's millenial kingdom, and the Judgment Seat of Christ, maybe even the Marriage of the Lamb.

There are 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent (Eze 39:12,13). That would put the Second Advent on Nisan 1, 5776, April 9, 2016, the first day of the Sacred, Regnal and Jubilee Year. The year before the Jubilee must be a Sabbatic Year. 5775 is a Sabbatic Year, it divides by 7 evenly. The next Sabbatic Year would be 5782. That is too far into the future. One generation limits it. How could it go beyond 5775?

There is a diagram of ancient harvests at this web site ( It says that grapes, pomegranates, FIGS and olives are harvested in SEPTEMBER. It doesn't even list spring for figs.

Jer 5:24 says, "Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, in his season (First Advent, Tishri 1 and Second Advent, Nisan 1): he reserveth unto US the appointed weeks of the HARVEST." How about Tishri 1 for both Raptures? We know the Last-Trump Rapture of I Cor 15:51-54 is on Tishri 1, the Day of God's Wrath. Maybe the First-Trump Rapture of I Thess 4:16,17 will also be on Tishri 1.

The three comets, Elenin, Honda and Levy, that will be seen in our sky seem like signs. When have we ever seen three at the same time? Jesus said that earthquakes would increase. Now, we find out that when three heavenly bodies line up, we have large earthquakes. Sept 25, we will have Saturn, Mercury, Sun, Elenin, Earth and Uranus line up. What will happen that day? Only 3 lined up the day of Japan's 9.0 earthquake and 133' tsunami. There will be 6 on Sept 25. Elenin will be between us and the Sun, and its coma is huge. Surely that's a sign. Agape

Interesting post on Five Doves

Kevin Heckle (13 Aug 2011)
"Paul Wilson-RE: 360 Day Prophetic Year Question"

Paul, It would seem to me that if the 360 day ‘prophetic year’ were a Biblical standard, it would have predicted some historical events recorded in the Bible. Certainly, the correlation with two descriptions, as recorded in Revelation 12, equates 1260 days to a ‘time, times and a half’. Therefore a ‘time’ would be 360 days if a time is intended to refer to the year.

I believe the term ‘prophetic year’ was coined by Sir Robert Anderson as he calculated the 69 weeks of Daniel, the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the Temple until the Messiah, to be 483 ‘prophetic years’ based on 360 day years. He claimed the decree occurred in 445 BC and then 69 x 7 x 360 days later, Jesus had his triumphal entry into Jerusalem just days before the Crucifixion which Anderson claimed occurred in 32 AD. His calculations and dating have been found by many scholars to be in error for various reasons. However, the 360 day ‘prophetic year’ stuck in the Christian vernacular. The erroneous accounting of Daniel’s prophecy has been repeated as gospel for so long that it is often cited in pulpits as an artifact of our faith. While Sir Anderson may have been proven incorrect dating both the decree and the Crucifixion (based on the 360 day year) his method recognizing the ‘weeks’ of Daniel equated to ‘sevens’ of years was brilliantly inspired and I believe absolutely correct. The 360 day year though was in error, an effort trying to make the prophecy fit the history.

The 360 day year was an ancient and crude method of reckoning of the movement of the sun. Some speculate that the year length before the Deluge was 360 days and became 365.24 days after. There is no Biblical basis for this assertion and there would absolutely be no way to prove it scientifically. The simplest explanation for the ancients reckoning a 360 days year was their method of measurement. If you hold your finger at arm length to the sky, it is approximately 1 degree in width. The sun will appear to move against the background stars (early in the morning) 1 degree per day (360 / 365.2421896 =.985647 degrees). The more obvious method of calculating dates by the ancients was the lunar cycle. The average between the solar year and the lunar year (354.367 days) is very nearly 360 at 359.8046 days. The difference between the duration from ‘morning star’ rising to rising (583.9202 days) and the orbital period of the morning star (Venus) 224.695 days is also close to 360 (359.22 days). The 360 day year by the ancients though, has roots in the Sumerian mathematical system. The sexagesimal (base 60) system was among the first mathematical systems devised some 3000 years before Christ. Our clock of 60 seconds = 1 minute, 60 minutes = 1 hour has its origins in that ancient Sumerian system as well as the 360 degrees of a circle.

Some have attributed the 360 day year to the Babylonians of Daniel’s time. However, the Babylonians were using the lunar-solar calendar over a thousand years before Daniel’s time. The cuneiform Venus Tablet of King Ammisaduga (tablet 63) dates to the 17th century BC (he was the 4th ruler after Hammurabi). It is possibly older as some posit that Hammurabi and Abraham were contemporaries. The observed cycles of Venus are recorded on the tablet over a 21 year period using the lunar calendar months (Nisan, Kislimu, Tishri, etc.) The calendar they used even had intercalary months (leap months) every 3rd year or so, just like the Modern Hebrew (Metonic) calendar. I personally entered the data recorded on that tablet onto a spreadsheet. I painstakingly entered every event based on the observations and then averaged the duration between events. The orbital period of Earth and Venus are almost exactly the same today as they were 3700 years ago as the average heliacal risings based on those ancient observations were 583.92 days apart. Mathematically then, the Earth orbital period at the time was 365.24 days and Venus was 224.7 days, just as it is now. While they occasionally inserted intercalary days to reconcile the solar year, the average 3-year period with the leap month every third year was 364 days! 354+354+384 average is 364.

The 364 Day Prophetic Year and The Book of Enoch I’ve made the case here before that if there is such a thing as a prophetic year, it’s a 364 day year. The system of Daniel’s ‘weeks’ prophecy based on the interpretation of ‘heptad’, has the meaning of seven. 364 days is 52 equal seven day weeks, Sabbath to Sabbath. 360 days is not divisible by 7 (sabbath to sabbath). During the Second Temple Period, the 364 day year calendar was in use by the priesthood. From the First Decree of Artaxerxes in 457 BC until 25 AD (when Jesus was about 30) there are 69 heptads of 364 day years! Daniel’s prophecy states that from the decree to restore until the Messiah (anointed) would be 69 weeks of years! Jesus was baptized around his 30th birthday, the Spirit of God descended upon Him like a dove (anointing) and God said this is my Son in whom I am well pleased!!! The 69 weeks of years was fulfilled exactly 483 years of 364 days per year!!!

Jude 1:14 quotes a prophecy from the Book of Enoch, giving that book real validity. Some of the phraseology Jesus used is reflected in the Book of Enoch. Interestingly, the Book of Genesis records that Enoch lived 365 years, which is the observed length of the year. However, the Book of Enoch records that an angel told Enoch the year was 364 days long! While some may discount a 364 day year (because the actual length is 365.24 days), a calendar using the 364, inserting an extra week every 7th year, could well be more accurate over the long term than the Gregorian calendar we use. In a 364 day system, the date would also fall on the same day of the week each year. While this may be a little technical, the length of a sidereal day is less than the full 24 hours. As Earth progresses through its orbit, the time it takes any particular point on our rotating planet to point at the same background star from day to day is 23.93447 hours. Probably more accurately, sidereal time follows the Vernal Equinox which precesses at about 1 degree every 71.6 years. Multiplied by 365 days the sidereal day length yields a total of 8736.082 hours. Dividing this 8736.082 hour value by the complete 24 hour day yields a total 364.0034 days. So maybe the angel who spoke to Enoch understood celestial mechanics pretty well.

I hope I gave you some background on the 360 day, as well as the 364 day alternative 'prophetic year'. YBIC, Kevin Heckle

My reply to a post by Mercer on the Five Doves site

> > > "Looking for The Blessed Hope (The Coming of the Lord Jesus For His Church) (Best Study I've ever read on the rapture)"

Concerning the study:
> > Isaiah 61:1

Of Isa 61:1,2. Luke 4:16-21 says, "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

Jesus' birthday was Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. He was about 30 on Tishri 10, the Day of Atonement in 27 AD.

In the synagogue in Nazareth, he stood up and read Isa 61:1,2 on Tishri 10 to announce that the Jubilee Year would start on the following Nisan 1, 3787, the first day of the Sacred, Regnal and Jubilee years.

> > Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter
> > The things which John has seen are found in chapter one, and it is the vision of the Lord Jesus. The things which are can be found in chapters two and three. These are the letters to the seven churches. There is no doubt that the church is “the things which are”

To me, the miracle-play "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is written as if the Rapture was near. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters.

Rev 1:3 says, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND."

Rev 22:10 says, "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND."

The Rapture is the pivot point. The "things which thou hast seen" in Rev 1:19 happen before the Rapture, "the things which are" happen at the First-Trump Rapture, and "the things which shall be hereafter" come after the First Trump Rapture.

In other words, in The Revelation of Jesus Christ, Jesus stands at the pinnacle of the Rapture and looks backward and forward to tell us what will happen.

Before the Rapture, Jesus gives his monologue to the 7 churches. At the Rapture, heaven's door opens and the Philadelphian church, plus overcomers out of the other church groups, are caught up. These are those for whom Jesus has no words of condemnation. Next come those things that are "hereafter" the Rapture.

Rev 4:1,2 says, "After this (i.e., after Jesus' monologue) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet (i.e., the first trumpet of God) talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (i.e., after the First-Trump Rapture). In Rev 4:2, John said, "And immediately I was (ginomai, lit., became) in the spirit."

> > After the seven letters to the churches, the scene moves to heaven and this is where “the things which shall be hereafter” takes place.

True. Agape

A post on Five Doves, Re: Jimmy Lishman (11 Aug 2011) "A Preview of what has started to happen"

What we’ve seen happen in the Middle East and also now at a city & country at supposedly the pinnacle of human development and culture, London & England is but an example of every day life after the Rapture. Shocking, but as real as the experience of everyday life for all left behind after the Rapture and during the tribulation.

Some say we will remain until the middle of the tribulation before being taken, called up but I don’t think so. Some say that the first 3 ½ years of the tribulation do not constitute the wrath of GOD – they should re-read Revelation 6 carefully.

Rev 6:15-16
Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,

Note: This is before the anti-christ defiles the temple!

Refusing to call on the Rock of Ages, men have no other choice but to cry to the rocks of the earth.

There are those who say the wrath of the Lamb, the real Tribulation, does not happen until midway into this seven-year period. They believe the church is raptured immediately before Antichrist enters the temple, demanding to be worshiped as God. Adherents to this view, called the Mid-Tribulation or Pre-Wrath Rapture, would do well to read Revelation 6 more carefully, because verse Rev_6:16 makes it clear that the wrath of the Lamb occurs at the beginning of the Tribulation, not halfway through.

"Pray you may be found worthy to escape all of these things," Jesus taught in His Olivet Discourse—not "that you may be found worthy to escape halfway through" (see Luk_21:36).

How is one found worthy? - Simply by being in Christ (Jud_1:24,25). Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless and with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time, now, and forever. Amen.

Making the book of Revelation conform to the ways of men can cause gross distortions, saying that it is not chronological etc. To my thinking this is wrong – it is divinely presented in this order, and so it should be read and interpreted.


My reply

> > Some say that the first 3 ½ years of the tribulation do not constitute the wrath of GOD – they should re-read Revelation 6 carefully.

Jimmy, you quoted Rev 6:16,17. I'm rereading Rev 6:12-17. It starts off with "I beheld when he had opened the SIXTH SEAL". Even after the great and terrible Day of the Lord has come, the wrath of God is not poured out until the 7th seal is broken in Rev 8. Between the coming of the day and the pouring out of God's Wrath, the Tribulation saints of Rev 7:14 will be caught up in the Last-Trump Rapture.

Rev 6:12-17 says, "I beheld when he had opened the SIXTH SEAL, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs (i.e., spring figs, the main crop comes in September), when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven (i.e., clouds of the sky) departed as a scroll when it is rolled together (i.e., they look up into the sky and see the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt 24:30, i.e., Jesus sitting on his throne); and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"

After the Last-Trump Rapture of Rev 7:14, Rev 8:1-6 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was SILENCE IN HEAVEN about the space of half an hour."

There will be silence on Earth at the same time, while Jesus is being seated as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Hab 2:20 says, "But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the EARTH KEEP SILENCE before him."

Continuing, Rev 8 says, "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer (probably a globe with a hole in the top hung by 3 chains); and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

Only after Satan's home on the asteroid Wormwood hits Earth do the trumpets sound.

Rev 8:8-11 says, "And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain (i.e., probably part of the asteroid that split off at the Roche Limit, 11,000 miles out) burning with fire was cast into the sea (i.e., the Mediterranean): and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star (aster, star, meteorite or asteroid) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."

Isa 22:16-19 tells us more about the asteroid Satan lives on. It says, "What hast thou here? (literal Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (an asteroid, piece of his planet Rahab that split apart)? 17 Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. 18 HE WILL SURELY VIOLENTLY TURN AND TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country (not tiny Israel): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. 19 And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down." Agape

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