Pro and Con 164, Updated 8-15-98

Incoming Email

HERE IS A WEB SITE THAT HAS A VIEW SIMILAR TO YOURS:
http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com. Welcome to "What Saith the Scripture? HAVE YOU READ THIS BEFORE ?

My reply

I read the Timeline before, can't remember if I read about the Raptures, but I probably did. I disagree with him on a few things. For instance, he has the Pre-Wrath Rapture taking place at the seventh trumpet. If that were so, it would not be PRE-wrath. The seven trumpet judgments ARE the Wrath of God. I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place between the breaking of the sixth seal in Rev. 6:12 and the breaking of the seventh in Rev. 8. Between them, you have Rev. 7:14, which says, "These are they which CAME out of great tribulation." The trumpet judgments are released afterward, beginning in Rev. 8.

I don't believe in his "American Rapture."

Thanks for the information you have been sending me.

Incoming Email

Marilyn, glad to hear Ed is recovering. What a trying time this has been for you. One wonders about the 'testing' that we receive. The endurance of suffering seems so needless sometimes, especially for God's Saints. Even more, perhaps, for the unsaved who question the motives of a God who allows such things, especially to the 'innocent'. There are times when I wish God would just be a little more obvious about his motives.

In any event, with regard to your web page, there has been a typo that has needed correcting for a couple of months now. Your opening scripture from Romans lacks the correct verse. It should read: "Romans 13:10-14". This is a minor thing, of course, but maybe is confusing for some.

Also, I appreciated the comments in ProCon 161 from the person who had 'backslidden' during this wait time. I also experienced a bit of that, having walked in wonderful victory for over 3 months. After a rapture-less Pentecost, then Orthodox Pentecost, then the 40 days testing, then this and that, it got to mid July, and like the disciples, I became weary and fell asleep. 'Waiting the hour' has been very hard. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. I just hope that this weakness isn't sufficient to be counted as a 'foolish virgin'.

We all need extra prayer at this critical time. Thanks, and God Bless.

My reply

Thanks for telling me about the error. I have no time to check for errors. The only way they can get fixed is probably if someone brings it to my attention.

If God's saints did not suffer the same trials and tribulations as others, it would destroy man's walking by faith test. The difference would be too obvious to unbelievers. The way it is, God gives us the inner strength to cope with what hits us rather than keeping it from happening. The way we withstand things is a testimony to others too as we pick our way through the days of special testing.

> There are times when I wish God would just be a little more obvious about his motives

I understand what you mean, but our test is to walk by faith no matter what, and God can't be too obvious about his motives, either. The fallen angels disobeyed being able to see God. We are expected to obey even though "blind," both not being able to see God or know much about some of his motives. It seems that he is proving a point to Satan, that man, a lesser creature, can obey anyway. Therefore, God is just in carrying out Satan's prison sentence. We will understand later.

As for what happened to Ed, I am thankful that the Lord answered my prayer to have him with me until the Rapture. Evidently, this is the only way that could come true.

There is a little mind trick to remember to help keep ourselves from slipping back in these days. Think about when you were strong. Don't let your mind dwell on other times. Your mind directs your body.

Paul said, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things" (Phil 4:8). He knew what he was talking about. He had suffered many things, yet said, "I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content...both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" (Phil 4:11-13).

Incoming Email

Came across your web page while just looking around. Have not read the detail yet, but liked the introduction.

I have been studying bible chronology for a few years now, because believe many of the endtime bible prophecies which imply time periods are actually linking past bible events to the close of the 6,000 years.

When I get the time hope to compile a web page detailing a 6,000 year structure. Believe the time of tribulation is still about 30 years away, an idea mentioned in your introduction.

I have found bible chronology one of the most complex areas of study. Surprised to find any woman with an interest in what many would describe as a very 'dry' area of study.

Do you find many people respond to your web page? I have a few web pages on some prophecy aspects, but the level of response, good or bad, is disappointing. (Perth, Australia)

My reply

I worked long and hard on Bible Chronology. If you haven't seen my chronology yet, it is at http://www.kiwi.net/~mjagee/chron.html

I do not buy Ernest Martin's chronology, but I do buy most of Martin Anstey's. The best books on the subject I found are his two-volume work, "The Romance of Bible Chronology."

I think the 6000 years (BC 4004/3 - 1998 AD) is important, but I think man's testing period that began when he became mortal and knew both good and evil lasts 7000 years. Eccl. 8:5 says, "A wise man's heart discerneth both TIME and JUDGMENT." I think this "time" is 7000 years and this "judgment" is an additional 7 years, the Seventieth Week of Daniel. It seems to be added so that it could be dropped if the green figs on the fig tree (Israel) would just ripen in time. Lev. 26:27,28 says, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury: and I, even I, will chastise you seven times (years, Rev. 12:6,14) for your sins."

> Believe the time of tribulation is still about 30 years away

I think that if you take a hard look at world conditions, you should be able to see that things cannot go on as they are for another 30 years. Everything has already fallen in place but the Pre-Trib Rapture. We even have the MARC card being issued our military men. I have seen one with my own eyes, held it in my hand. Their whole life history is in just a portion of that card. I drove down the highway behind a well-outfitted van yesterday that had on it Lucent Technologies with their circular red-dragon logo. I will attach some files that may be of interest on this subject.

> Also hold to the view of a neat 2,000 from creation to calling of Abraham and then a
> further 2,000 to calling of disciples.

It just won't fit if you work it out. It may sound right at first glance, but it won't fit. I think Adam was created in 4044/43 BC, was in Eden 40 years and was expelled in 4004/3 BC. Abraham was born in 2008 AH, which is 2035 BC. Dr. Arnold D. Ehlert, head of BIOLA library when I began my studies in earnest, in his "Syllabus of Bible Chronology," said, "Up to this point there is perfect agreement in arriving at the date 2008 A.H. as the date of Abram's birth by Anstey, Panin and Ussher."

I think Jesus was born in 5 BC (Tishri 1, 4039 AH), was visited by the wise men in 3 BC (4040 AH), was baptized in 26 AD (4068 AH) and died in 30 AD (4072 AH).

If you take 4040 AH, subtract the 40 years Adam was in Eden, you get 4000 years of man's test as both mortal and knowing good and evil, not 4000 years from Adam to the calling of the disciples. The year 4040 AH was our BC 3. That was when the gifts the wise men brought symbolically anointed Jesus as deity (gold), High Priest (frankincense) and the Saviour who would die for us (myrrh, bitterness).

Re: Response. I had 454 from 4:54 PM Aug. 11, to 4:55 PM Aug. 12, for a running total of 184,268 on the two counters I have had. That is down from hits in 4 figures because I am busy taking care of my husband, who just had open-heart surgery. I don't have as much time as before to answer email and post Pro and Cons. Ed is improving every day, however. This phase won't last forever.

Incoming Email

You're not posting so things must not be well. I'll continue to pray for you and Ed.

I just got your new book and am fifty pages into it. It's good to see that the agape of and from God has shown through your mind and fingertips to the pages themselves.

I would remind you to stay strong, however, that would be like reminding Paul to keep the faith. So I will just remind you of a fact of life quoted from Johnny Carson's answer as to why some people seem to have more difficulties confront them in their lives while others seem to have little or none at all: "What hits the fan is dispersed unevenly". Always with love

My reply

Things are fine that count the most. Ed is on the mend, getting a bit stronger every day. Slept quite a bit myself the last few days. Probably needed it, but I ate something I was allergic to also. I'd do something for Ed, hit the bed to rest my back, grab one of Pastor Riley's newsletters, read a little, and zonk out for awhile. What I ate caused muscle cramps, general pain and a daylong headache that pills would not touch. Last night, I had to unplug my computer because of another electrical storm, a real rarity in Southern California, but they are still forcast through this weekend. Don't want to lose my computer.

Someone wrote that in filling a jar, you have to put the big rocks in before the little rocks, the little ones before the sand, and the sand before the water. Taking care of Ed is my first big rock to put in these days, but this will all be just a memory before long.

Glad my book comes across that way.

As for what hits us, when we withstand our test, cursing turns to blessing, and I figure I got my blessing early this time. I have Ed with me. We just have to keep things in perspective.

Incoming Email

I am very sorry about your husband. I have not experienced that pain of losing your soulmate but I do know that you should celebrate your husband's death for your husband will be free. He will have finally met and be with Jesus. He will be free from his forsaken body and recieve a new body and soul, a pure one in both aspects.

I think I might understand that "summer is nigh" verse. Summer has usual been considered the season of war. Winter the season of peace and rest. Spring the season of preparation for war. So look at it this way. Heaven, right now is in spring and is getting mobilized for war. Heaven is getting ready to defend against that allout onslaught. Summer is nigh therefore war is near.

My reply

Hey! Wait a minute. :) My husband is on the mend, praise the Lord. I hope that in my haste, I didn't put "My Reply" on "Incoming Email."

In the fig tree parable in Mt. 24:32-34, the Six-Day War was over before summer began, but in the OT, I think summmer was when kings went to war.

Incoming Email

FROM CAPS.Marilyn, I hope things are going o.k. for you and Ed. Over the past several weeks and months I have continually thought about the three prophetic words given in the month of June.These are recorded in pro/con # 127. I have not been able to get the phrase "GO AGAIN THE 3RD TIME" ( given in the following word ) out of my mind: " ALTHOUGH YOU WENT FORTH AT THE FIRST DO NOT LET THE SPIRIT OF SLUMBER STEAL YOUR SONG. GO AGAIN THE 3RD TIME AND WAKE FROM SLEEP AND ENTER THE REST PREPARED FOR YOU. IF YOU HAD BEEN ASKED TO DO A DIFFICULT THING FOR YOUR REST--WOULD YOU NOT HAVE DONE IT? NOW IS THE TIME FOR WATCHING IN THIS HOUR OF REVEALING AND REST."---END OF WORD.

Last night while outside it "dropped " into my spirit what I believe the correct understanding of this is. We of course "WENT FORTH AT THE FIRST" on Pentecost , Sunday May 31st. So, what does it mean to "GO AGAIN THE THIRD TIME" mean? I think it means the following. The first "going forth" was at a Pentecost--calculated by counting 50 days, arriving at May 31st. To "go again" the second time would entail counting another 50 days from May 31st. Counting it THE SAME WAY as if you were counting the original Pentecost. This would arrive at Sunday July 19th. To "go again" the THIRD TIME you would once again calculate another 50 days from July 19th. This would arrive at SUNDAY SEPTEMBER 6TH. This is the "GOING AGAIN THE THIRD TIME". This Sunday is in the middle of the month of ELUL. IT IS ALSO ON A FULL MOON. I feel in my spirit that this is the correct understanding of this word. I also feel that this "UNLOCKS" the correct understanding of the other prophetic words recorded in p/c 127. I submit this to you for your judgement. More to come soon. CAPS.

My reply

I don't know, but it seems to me that the Lord set the feast days on the dates of important events. They are appointment days. The Eve of a feast day also seems to have more going for it than between times. Jesus was crucified on the Eve of Passover so that he would die at the exact time the lambs were being slain in the temple, so the Eve of a feast does have a precedent for an important event.

I can't remember if I ever researched the full moon. I have no time to do it right now, either. If you turn up any connection between the phase of the moon and the Rapture, please let me know.

Incoming Email

On THURSDAY you had 558 Visitors. Today - FRIDAY - you had 1041 - WOW. I THINK they are CONCERNED! I THINK they are WORRIED! I HOPE you are getting MUCH needed REST!!

My reply

You hit the nail on the head. Between all I do for Ed, all the extra washing to never use a washrag twice, not even to put back in the water at all, change the bedding often, etc., and eating things I was allergic to twice since Ed came home, I was TIRED. Tonight, I feel like myself though. I'll try to get PC 164 loaded.

Last night I didn't even get to check email because of the lightning. Since my dad got hit by lightning and knocked off his wooden stool under the open garage door when tinkering with his electronic TV-repair test equipment, and since that same strike blew up their TV in the house, when I see lightning or hear thunder, I shut down and unplug my computer. I don't want to lose it. Dad had lightning arrestors and 6ft. copper grounding stakes pounded almost all the way in the ground, and that didn't protect them. I have none of that here. This puny serge protector will only protect against little things like the washer motor starting and stopping, nothing like a lightning strike.

Incoming Email

I haven't written knowing how very busy you are and not wanting to clutter up your e-mail. I have a question which I know you can answer. Texe Marrs (Austen, TX) said on a tape that someone gave me that Christians will not be raptured until after the anti-christ is revealed. He used 2 Thess.2:3 where Paul says that we shouldn't be deceived. That that day shall not come (i.e. the rapture) until there is a falling away first and that man of sin, the son of perdition shall be revealed. In other words we will know who the anti-christ is before the rapture. And therefore, since we don't know yet who he is, the rapture can not happen until we do. Have you ever discussed this point./ I don't remember reading about it in any of your books.

I have so much concern for what you are going through and the things the devil is throwing at your family - I think he is doing it just to keep you from your work in getting people ready.

Please know that you have helped so many people and continue to do so and you are not letting the devil keep you from broadcasting abroad. Please keep up your strength and courage and may the Lord help you to endure until we are lifted up. Love in Christ.

My reply

> Christians will not be raptured until after the
> anti-christ is revealed. He used 2 Thess.2:3 where Paul says that we shouldn't be
> deceived. That that day shall not come (i.e. the rapture) until there is a falling
> away first and that man of sin, the son of perdition shall be revealed.

The word "apostasia" means "departing" and is so translated in early versions of the Bible, The Great Bible, Tyndale's, Beza's, Coverdale Bible, etc. It means separation as in a divorce ("apostacion"). This departing means the Rapture, when we are separated from this Earth. Until that time, our salt (actually the Holy Spirit in us) retards the growth of leaven (evil). When we are gone, evil will not be restrained. It will come to a head. Also, we are told to watch for Christ's coming, not to watch for the coming of the man of sin." He is to be revealed for sure at the beginning of the Tribulation when he confirms (by signing) the 7-year peace covenant.

Thanks for your prayers. My strength may flag, but my courage doesn't.

Incoming Email

"No man knows". You perceive "KNOWS" as no man at the time it was spoken knew when the rapture was to occur. To the Father time has no meaning. "No man knows", means mankind knows not, he knew not then, he knows not now nor will he know. He will know the time is near and without a shadow of a doubt it is! Spend your time preparing and think not about that day on which it will fall.

You are strong in the Lord and this year have suffered many trials. Rejoice in your faith for with it you shall overcome! Your knowledge of the word of God and dedication to your faith have brought many into the house of the Lord.

Faith not only moves mountains, it also works on mountains of troubles.

My reply

> Spend your time preparing and think not about that day on which it will fall.

I am as prepared as I know how to be. Now may I consider which day it could fall on? And why did the Lord tell us 23 times to watch?

Incoming Email

Re: Concerned
Marilyn, I think most of us are getting a little concerned. Is everything all right with you and Ed? Lord, I hope Ed has not had a relapse.

My reply

No relapse. Ed is fine. I am tonight, but have slept a lot the last few days. Last night, lightning kept me from using my computer, and I am hoping that the lightning tonight stays far enough away so I can load a Pro and Con. Dave saw the streaks, but we have heard no thunder yet. Thanks for your concern. Sometimes no news is good news.

Added 8-15-98:

Incoming Email

I'm sorry to bother you but I was checking your website a few months ago and believe I read of a man who thought he found the Ark of the Covenant. He went on to say that it was guarded by four men (or angels) and he spoke to them. Was it at your website or am I thinking of another? If you know where this info is please let me know. I have been looking for it but cannot find it. Perhaps it is right under my nose but it still escapes me. Your assistance will be greatly appreciated.

You have a great website. I don't know that I agree in detail with everything you say but I don't dismiss it either. I've been studying prophecy for a long time and you sure made me think and look at things from a different perspective. You are doing a wonderful job.

My reply

Here is Ron Wyatt's Archaeological Research URL from my link page:
http://www.anchorstone.com/wyatt

I understand that no two of us will agree in all details. The subject is too complex. We should consider what others think and compare it with Scripture and be fully persuaded in our own minds. We are supposed to throw out that which does not agree with Scripture and hold on to that which agrees. None of us is perfect. Only God and the original editions of Scripture are perfect.

I appreciate your kind remark. I try hard. The Lord has helped me understand some things that others had not seen. He has also helped others to understand some things that I did not see. Put it together and we can grow in knowledge. No one has all the answers. There is so much to dig out, we will never get to the bottom of it until the Lord comes. That's what makes the search so fascinating. The more you know about the Bible, the more you can know.

Incoming Email and my reply

> Sorry to hear about your husband, but glad to hear he is recovering.

***From Marilyn: Me too.

> I do not adhere to the 'rapture' philosophy.

***I think there are two Raptures, a Pre-Trib and and Pre-Wrath Rapture. One is in Rev. 4:1, the other is indicated in Rev. 7:14.

> Guess I have a different view
> of the tribulation, who it will be upon and why it is necessary.

***What do you think the "pierasmos," trial "which shall come UPON ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth" of Rev. 3:10 means? Why are we told to "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36)?

> Calling of Abraham at 2,000 years after creation. Impossible?
>
> I am not saying I have all the answers, but an obvious assumption many make
> is that the father of Abraham who died was Terah.

***Gen. 11:27 says, "Terah begat Abram."

> They also assume that Gen 11:28,
> 'Terah lived 70 years and begot Abram, Nahor and Haran', is talking about
> the age of Terah when he gave birth to his oldest son.

***I think you mean verse 26. Abram was born in 2008 AH, when Terah was 130 (Gen. 11:26-32; Gen. 12:4; Acts 7:4). The sons of Noah are also listed with the youngest (Shem) first. This emphasizes the line through which Christ would come, Shem and Abram.

***Terah was born in 1878 AH and lived to 205. At his death Abram left Haran, so he died in 2083 AH when Abram was 75. AH 2083 - 75 = 2008 AH, when Abram was born when Terah was 130, so 70 makes sense to be when the oldest son was born. AH 2008 - 130 = 1878 AH, when Terah was born. Anstey, Panin and Ussher agree.

> Although it is commonly mentioned in textbooks on the subject that the word
> for 'father' in the Hebrew does not necessarily imply ones literal father
> (as it does in English) scholars mostly seem to have made this assumption.
> For myself I view the later death of Terah being the event which caused
> news to come to Abraham concerning the family of his brother Nahor (Gen 22:20-24).
>
> Also Abraham was first called in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran. The
> age of Abraham at the time of the first calling is not spelled out.

***If we needed to know it, there would be a way to figure it out. Gen. 12:1-4 says, "NOW the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto A LAND that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing...So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran." What he was told in Ur was a bit different from the more specific promise of giving him the land of CANAAN in 2083 AH. Terah died at 205 (Gen. 11:32). This was when Abram was promised Canaan/Israel. Gen. 35:12 says, "And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee (Jacob/Israel) I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give THE LAND." When Abraham left Haran was the beginning of the 430-year Dispensation of Promise.

> How long did Abraham stay in Haran???

***I don't know, but if we needed to know, we would be given clues to figure it out.

> Also what proof do we have that 1656 was the actual date of the Flood.

***All major Bible chronologers agree on 1656 AH. Adam lived 930 years. Methuselah lived 969 years. Their lives overlapped 243 years (930 + 969 = 1899 - 1656 to Flood = 243, making any changes difficult.

> What about accumulated rounding differences? A few years plus or minus is possible.

***If we had to worry about those, we would be given the month and day of the month. They are probably all counted as being Tishri 1.

> How does one verify the Flood date using Scripture? (Asking too much?

***Gen. 5:5: "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." Gen. 5:27: "And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died." The rest is above.

> I am not so certain. From my experience the bible confirms
> everything, our lack of discernment is usually the problem.)
>
> I look to prophecy to confirm chronology. (Not talking about fulfilled or
> past prophecies, but those linking major historic biblical events to the
> close of the 6,000 years.) I do not see how chronology could be seriously
> studied without looking to prophecy for the necessary structure. Why it
> would be like trying to work with a body which had no skeleton. (Of course
> most prophecies have not been understood and that does make it harder.)

***Both prophecy and chronology complement each other and are interwoven. Prophecy helps us figure out the Gordian Knots in chronology.

> Another 30 years too long. Depends what one expects. For me a prequisite to
> the tribulation is complete unlocking of Scripture. Knowing how inground
> old religious beliefs can be, it seems 30 years is not long enough.

***There is too much in Scripture to ever completely understand it in our days. However, I think the information concerning God's Timetable of End-time Events was unsealed in 1967.

> A very good response on your webpage!

***Thanks.

> You know, I am not a Pentecostal, I prefer hard cold facts, but often I
> find with bible chronology that what one feels is right, or feels is wrong,
> is a good guide. Even if at the time one does not know why. Regards

***Feeling is not a good guide. Something may feel right and still be wrong. For instance, it seems right to think that from Adam to Abraham was 2000 years, and from Abraham to Christ was 2000 years, but that is oversimplified. We have to back everything up with Scripture. It is the only rock-hard truth we have to go by. We should build on rock. Building on feelings is building on sand. Let's say you felt like Adam was created in 4000 BC, and you built your chronology on that. Your whole building would fall when you found out that Adam was really created in 4043/44 BC.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 8-15-98