Pro and Con 1655
My Note: I just got my new glasses. I can see so well I can hardly believe it. In spite of the right iris bleeding, the cataract surgery was successful on both eyes. My worst eye, the right one, has now become my best eye. Thank you Lord. Marilyn
MY ANSWER TO A POST BY KML
ON FIVE DOVES, Re: My answer to "Lilly star (31 July 2012) "Question about angels"
> > You stated you had been praying to see an angel.
Lilly star said, "I've been asking God if I could see an angel," not me. I
have never in my whole life even thought of doing that. (See Lillie's post after my answer to KML)
> > Then in your letter
> > you state you saw your husband who had passed away in Dec of 2011. I am
> > sorry for your loss.
Thanks for your compassion.
I know what I saw. I saw Ed, and he looked like he did when he was 33, not
87, his age when he died. He spoke with his normal voice. Whether it was
actually him in his celestial body or a vision, I don't know. Whatever, he
answered my questions then walked through the wall.
> > Never in the Bible do we read of the dead returning to give a message to
> > the living.
King Saul called up Samuel by the witch of Endor after Samuel died. Saul
died because he did this, it is forbidden, but he did it anyway. It is
1Sa_25:1 says, "And Samuel died."
1Sa 28:6-19 says, "And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him
not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. 7 Then said Saul unto
his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to
her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a
woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 8 And Saul disguised himself,
and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came
to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the
familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 9 And
the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he
hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the
land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10
And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall
no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, WHOM
SHALL I BRING UP UNTO THEE? And he said, BRING ME UP SAMUEL. 12 And when
THE WOMAN SAW SAMUEL, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to
Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king
said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto
Saul, I SAW GODS ASCENDING OUT OF THE EARTH. 14 And he said unto her, What
form is he of? And she said, AN OLD MAN COMETH UP; and he is covered with a
mantle. And Saul perceived that IT WAS SAMUEL, and he stooped with his face
to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And SAMUEL SAID TO SAUL, WHY HAST THOU
DISQUIETED ME, TO BRING ME UP? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for
the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and
answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have
called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16 Then
said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed
from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the LORD hath done to him, as
he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and
given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 Because thou obeyedst not the
voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore
hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will
also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and TO
MORROW SHALT THOU AND THY SONS BE WITH ME: the LORD also shall deliver the
host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
Saul should not have gone to the witch of Endor and had her call up Samuel.
Because he did, he and his 3 sons died.
1Sa 31:8 And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to
strip the slain, that they found SAUL AND HIS THREE SONS FALLEN IN MOUNT
> > Believers never; after death, become angels !
I agree. Men are men; and angels are angels. However, on April 2, 2012, when
I asked Ed "Are there female angels in Heaven?" he said, "Yes."
They are not believers from among mankind, they were created as angels.
Since Ed was always trustworthy, I believe him. Since he had been in Heaven
three months, ever since the morning of Dec 27, 2011, I figured that he
> > There are gardian angels who watch over us, but never do they take on
> > the appearance of the dead.
Maybe not the appearance of the dead, but they sometimes do take on the
appearance of the living. Gabriel seems to have appeared as a man to Vincent
Tan. John Tng can probably tell you where that information can be found on
his Five Doves site if you have never read it.
> > Demonic spirits have been around from before the Flood, and know all
> > things about our family members throughout the generations. These will
> > take on the appearance of the dead in order to gain an advantage in our
> > lives through our sorrow, and loss. Praying to see an angel could have
> > been an open door for the evil spirits to have access to your thoughts
> > and dreams.
I didn't pray to see an angel.
I didn't pray to see Ed, either, but it happened. I was shocked to see him
striding into the room with that ear to ear grin on his face. His hair was
no longer gray, he was no longer bedfast, he didn't even use his walker.
From my memory, he could have been 30 or 33, so I asked him which. He said,
"33." I believe him. I think we will all end up looking like we did at 33. I
got out the picture albums, and found a picture when he was 32. That is what
he looked like when I saw him April 2. His weight was normal. Both of us had
been too thin before that and kept gaining weight after that.
> > We as believers must test the spirits. We do this by applying what is
> > said by these spirits against the word of God.
> > There are no Female angels.
I think there are. We will know before very long.
> > God said " you were not created to have wives, you were eternal living
> > the eternal life and had need for nothing "
I searched the KJV for "you were eternal" with eSword without finding your
I also searched for the words" NOT" and "CREATED" without finding your
quote...Where does the Bible say what
We should be careful how we quote the Bible. Rev 22:18 says, "For I testify
unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any
man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are
written in this book"....
> > [We will Never be like the angels.Never]
I believe what Jesus said:
In Mat 22:29,30, "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing
the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither
marry, nor are given in marriage, but are AS THE ANGELS OF GOD IN HEAVEN."
In Mar 12:24,25, "Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err,
because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 25 For when
they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in
marriage; but are AS THE ANGELS WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN."
> > The only females in heaven are the souls of the righteous women who are
> > passed from their bodies and in the presence of The Lord, and await as
> > we do for Jesus to call us up at the Rapture.
The sons of God who took wives from among mankind were physically able to
beget children, the giants.
Gen 6:4 says, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after
that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare
children to them".
Therefore, it makes sense to me that there were male counterparts, female
> > The Lord tells us there is NO sorrow there. We will not be mindfull of a
> > husband or our children as we are mindful of them here on the earth.
> > All things are passed away, behold all things are become new. We will
> > know them when we get there, but we will not have the same feelings as
> > we do now. Our husbands and wives are not something we will consider
> > there. JESUS will be the center, and our all in all. We will be married
> > to Him, and He is our focus.
Males are part of the Bride of Christ. Even the 144,000 Israelites are
called virgins in Rev 14:1-5. That is different from a man and wife here.
I don't think we will lose anything stored in our brains. Ed and I honored
God when we were together 65 years here, and we will still honor God in
When Ed was on board a ship coming home from Japan after WW II, he prayed to
God for a Christian wife. The Lord chose me for him, and had to pull off
some miracles so we would meet each other.
Until December in my freshman year in High School, I was raised in Indiana.
Ed was raised in Kingsport, Tennessee. My Dad was transferred from Vigo
Ordinance, Terre Haute, IN, to Holston Ordinance Works, Kingsport, TN. Ed
and I went to the same High School for half a year in Kingsport, but didn't
know each other then. I was a freshman and new in town. He was a senior and
was born there. He was drafted and spent 32 months in the army. We met after
he was discharged. My family had moved out of town to Staff Quarters on
Holston Ordinance Works. His family had moved to Staff Quarters near where
we lived just before he got home.
We fell deeply in love with each other on our first date, July 3, 1946. That
surely was the Lord's doings. Ed asked me to marry him 3 days later, the 4th
day we got together, July 6, and I said, "Yes." I don't think either of us
had said, "I love you," yet, but we knew it, and finally put it into words
after I said, "Yes." We married the following January. The Lord matched us
up perfectly. We were always at ease with each other right from the start.
We got through 65 precious years together without a single fight.
> > Enoch tells us that while he was with the Heavenly angels, he saw this
> > man in heaven, and inquired of the angel that was with him as to who
> > this Man was. Enoch said " I who am 7th from Adam and know all men on
> > the earth, and I have never seen this Man. The angel of presence with
> > Enoch said" This is The Word" in Him will all the righteous dwell, for
> > He is righteousness.
However, the Book of Enoch is not Scripture.
> > Watching is important and is what Jesus ask us to do, but many who are
> > baby christians believe on His Name and will also go at the Rapture. Not
> > just those who are watching and waiting.
I think there will be two Raptures, the First-Trump Rapture of I Thess
4:16,17 and the Last-Trump Rapture of I Cor 15:51-54. It is up to Jesus to
decide who is a wise virgin and who is a foolish virgin at the time of the
first Rapture. Agape
The Previous post on Five Doves from Lilly star that I had answered:
Hi, thank you for your responses on my last post about my rapture
dreams:. I have been pondering this...I truly believe that Gods angels
watch over us. I've had several experiences...one where after I got saved
appeared as a light ( I was living with my bf at the time and there was a
darkness around him, he did not believe) anyways, the light said "we need
you to be strong today" it turns out, that day truly changed my whole
life...and I saw first hand the spiritual battle we go through. Anyways,
I've been asking God if I could see an angel ...since I've read so many
stories. I've kind of given up, thinking maybe I'm just not spiritual
enough? Or maybe I would pass out from fear?..Anyways! Over the weekend we
were talking to my nephew, and he asked if there are "female" angels. My
husband immediately said no....that there are no female angels ever
mentioned in the bible. It kind of made me feel sad. Do any of you know the
answer to this? And if there are female angels, why are they never
mentioned? . I know some of you might say, well, they have no gender. But
that's not true...as the fallen angels had to be men to mate with the women
on earth. I know Eve was created from Adam...but in one scripture , the
"created them" in His image, implies women as well as men. Thank you for
your thoughts! Lilly star.
From: James Ross: surprise cuts to Medicare Advantage coming.
To Our Children
God woke me up twice last month, and I knew I had to write and let everyone know how much your parents care about you. In our love for you, we have prayed every day that you come to truly know the Lord. The age of grace-the time that God has allowed for Gentiles to come into the kingdom-is closing. When this door closes, it will be too late. We are right at that precipice now.
I pray you read this entire letter, but it is your choice. I won't force you, as God won't force you to come to Him. But know this: Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The Bible is the infallible Word of God. Everything in the Bible is true; all of its prophecies, so far, have come true. After your life is over on this earth, it continues somewhere else-heaven or hell.
You may say, "I am saved; I was baptized." But the Bible says that those who are saved bear fruit; in other words, they reveal the fruit of a changed life; a life that worships the Lord, and is obedient to His commands.
Has anyone noticed how crazy the weather has gotten? How often we're having earthquakes, floods,
wildfires, tornados, hurricanes, and volcanic eruptions? And how frequent they are and getting worse? The Book of Revelation in the Bible has prophesied all that is happening right now.
The Bible has foretold many prophecies, all of which have come true, thus far, and all of the prophecies foretold from the Book of Revelation will come true as well. While there are people who don't believe in Jesus, I want to tell you that some Muslims do-they are coming to faith in Jesus, in record numbers, through visions from God.
I accepted Jesus as my Savior when I was twelve years old when a preacher came to our house. My mother couldn't stand preachers who came to the door, and she turned all of them away-except this one. He talked to her a little about Jesus, and then asked if we could ride to church with him. From that time on, my sister and I went to church with him every Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night for five years. This was when I became saved. Though I stepped away from God for a period of time, I came back.
Before my mother died, God revealed to me I needed to tell her I loved her. It was hard because we'd been estranged for so long. She never once-not once-told me she loved me. So, it was doubly hard for me to tell her I loved her. I remember seeing her hooked up to an IV, with a morphine drip for the pain of lung cancer. Her eyes were glassy, and I doubted she would hear me. But I knew I had to be obedient. I said, "Mama, I love you." For a brief moment, she looked directly at me. Then, she smiled. While I never said, "I forgive you, Mama," She knew I did. It gave both of us peace.
To this day, I don't know if she accepted Jesus as her Savior or not, and I will not know, this side of heaven. I pray she did, for if she didn't, she will live in a place of everlasting fire and torment-forever. It pains me to even think this, but I know it's possible, unless someone reached her before she died. I pray they did.
When I first met my friend again a few years ago, he told me about his mother. She was much like my mother. She didn't believe in God, or Jesus. Like my mother, she was dying of cancer. My friend said that when his mom was in the hospital, she had a spirit of bitterness and hatred toward everyone-even the nurses who took care of her. She cursed them all, and at one point, she was so mad at a nurse she cursed at her. The nurses were afraid of her. Later, my friend came in and talked to his mother. He asked, "Are you afraid of dying?" And she said yes.
My friend told her how Jesus died for her sins, and that if she repented of her sins, and believed Jesus was who He said He was, and that He died on the cross for her sins-past, present, and future, He arose again on the third day, and now sits at the right hand of God, she would be saved. He said, "Mom, do you believe this?" With tears in her eyes, she nodded.
The next time a nurse came in to assist his mother, there was a profound difference in her-especially in her countenance. She had a sweet, sweet spirit, and even her face looked radiant. The nurses even noticed how radiant she was-not the bitter, angry woman who first came into the hospital. Not long after, she passed away.
Wars and Rumors of Wars
The Bible says we will know the season when Jesus is coming back. In Matthew 24:4 NIV, Jesus says, "Many will come in My name saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.... And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved."
The wars and rumors of wars are happening now, as are famines, pestilences (AIDS, TB, Pandemic Flu, etc.), and earthquakes in various places.
Many men of God believe we're in the last days now. When the seven angels pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on earth during the Tribulation, it will bring misery to all who do not know God and Jesus Christ, His Son. We are quickly approaching this time.
When I was awakened for the second time, I felt God wanted me to let you know the burden we feel for you. We pray that God will speak to you, and you will respond. We are all guilty before God, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). And "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23). We all deserve death, judgment, and hell. But we can be forgiven of our sins, and by receiving Jesus, we can escape eternal judgment reserved for nonbelievers, and live eternally with Jesus.
The time is coming soon when no one will be able to buy or sell without a number, the mark of the beast. Beware of taking this number, because if you do, your fate is sealed for all eternity. You will go to hell; there will be no turning back.
Father in heaven, hallowed is Your name. We pray for each one who receives this letter. We pray Your hand of love, instead of judgment, falls on our children. We pray they know, and understand, that Jesus was born of a virgin, He was the sinless Son of God, He was crucified on the cross for our sins, He died, and He rose again. And right now, He sits at Your right hand, and intercedes for all the saints. We believe the Word of God is completely true, and that it is living and active. We believe the Holy Spirit resides in us and guides us, comforts us, protects us. We pray that each one of our children repents of his or her sins, and comes to You. This is the desire of our hearts that each one will be spared an eternal life of agony, apart from You. We pray these things in the powerful name of Jesus. Amen and amen.
MY REPLY TO MARI'S POST ON FIVE DOVES
> > This was my question: If the lukeworm in Christ that died are going to be ressurected in that first rapture than the alive lukeworm christians have the right to come as well,right? If those lukeworm in Christ are not going in the first rapture then the dead lukeworm shouldn't be ressurected then, because it's not faire.
All dead in Christ now go to Heaven. They used to go to Paradise in the Earth, but Jesus took all those to Heaven on Firstfruits, April 9, 30 AD (Julian). I think the wise virgins who have died will get their resurrection bodies along with the living wise virgins at the First-Trump Rapture, and the foolish virgins who have died will get their resurrection bodies along with the living foolish virgins at the Last-Trump Rapture.
> > But then, i have more questins. Are there any lukeworm that made it to heaven?
Since Paradise in the Earth has already been taken to Heaven, the dead in Christ have already made it to Heaven, both wise and foolish virgins. They have their celestial bodies now, but (maybe) not their resurrection bodies.
I think all the wise-virgin Christians, living or dead, will get their resurrection bodies at the First-Trump Rapture. I think all the lukewarm Christians, living or dead, will get their resurrection bodies at the Last-Trump Rapture.
> > did they end up in hell
> > Are they going to stay there untill the Judgement Throne Of God and barely get saved,like through fire?
No. Hell is for non-believers.
Is anybody who ended up in hell going to make out by any chace at the Throne Of Judgement?
I don't think so. Hell is the second death. The fire is not quenched. The first death is of the body, the second death is death of the soul. The spirit, sometimes referred to as the worm, doesn't die.
THE SECOND DEATH SCRIPTURES
Rev 2:11 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."
Rev 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
Rev 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Rev 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
THE WORM SCRIPTURES
Mar 9:44 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mar 9:45 "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
Mar 9:46 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mar 9:47 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:"
Mar 9:48 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Hope this helps. Agape
Thank you Marilyn for your reply.It was very informative and interesting.The foolish virgins being ressurected at the last trump is something new for me.I've been reading a lots of debates about the the subject of who is going to make the rapture and if the foolish/lukewarm virgins are going in the first rapture or not.My answer was always a question.This was my question:If the lukeworm in Christ that died are going to be ressurected in that first rapture than the alive lukeworm christians have the right to come as well,right?If those lukeworm in Christ are not going in the first rapture then the dead lukeworm shouldn't be ressurected then, because it's not faire.
But then,i have more questins.Are there any lukeworm that made it to heaven?I hope so.One more question.:) What about Rev 3:16? where it says about the lukeworm "i will spit you out of my mouth"?If they are given the chance to repent in the tribulation(i'm talking about the ourdays lukeworm christians) time then what chance was given to those who are already dead?If they weren't given a chance did they end up in hell?Are they going to stay there untill the Judgement Throne Of God and barely get saved,like through fire?Is anybody who ended up in hell going to make out by any chace at the Throne Of Judgement?
Sorry,i've had these questions for a while as you can see...
Anybody with good answers is welcomed to reply.
> > Are there any lukeworm that made it to heaven?
As I understand it, after his resurrection, Jesus took Paradise, a compartment in the Earth for all believers, to Heaven. Some of those could have been lukewarm.
If a believer dies now, he goes to Heaven, lukewarm or not. His rewards or lack of rewards will be determined at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The Lord is fair.
However, at the time of the First-Trump Rapture, the living Laodiceans that do not repent will be literally vomited out of the Body of Christ. They will have to endure the Great Tribulation on Earth and either be killed or be caught up in the Last-Trump Rapture.
The Laodiceans that repent in time will be caught up in the first Rapture. The Lord loves the Laodiceans. They are believers. He is treating them as a father should treat sons. Rev 3:19 says, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." He is giving them good advice just before the first Rapture takes place.
Revelation is written as if the Rapture was at hand. It is at hand in the first and last chapters. Rev 1:3 and Rev 22:10.
Rev 1:3 says, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."
Rev 22:10 says, "Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."
In Rev 22:20, Jesus says, "Surely I come quickly. Amen."
> > What about Rev 3:16? where it says about the lukeworm "i will spit you out of my mouth"?
Rev 3:14-22 says, "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
> > If they are given the chance to repent in the tribulation(i'm talking about the ourdays lukeworm christians) time then what chance was given to those who are already dead?If they weren't given a chance did they end up in hell?Are they going to stay there untill the Judgement Throne Of God and barely get saved,like through fire?Is anybody who ended up in hell going to make out by any chace at the Throne Of Judgement?
The Lord is perfectly just. He is fair. Anyone, past, present, or future, has a chance to be saved as long as he lives. Believers cannot end up in hell. Neither can those that do not have the mental capacity to make that kind of a decision.
The Judgment Seat of Christ follows the Last-Trump Rapture. The believers will receive or forfeit rewards.
Rev 11:15-19 says, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come (i.e., the Second Advent is still 7 months in the future); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (i.e., at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
There is another Judgment at the Great White Throne after the Millennium. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Rev 20:11-15 says,"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Agape.
Pro and Con 1656 Or Return
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