Pro and Con 166, Updated 8-24-98, AM

Incoming Email

Thank you for all of the research and math. Let me study it a while and let it sink in.

If Avi is 60 years "off", how come he is within 1-1/2 years of when you predicted the rapture (Rosh Hashanna 1999 versus Pentecost 1998)? It seems he would be 58-1/2 or 61-1/2 years off.

I'm very glad to hear that Ed is doing better everyday. Abba, continue to heal Ed, in Yeshua's name, Amen!

My reply

It seems that Avi made 4000 fit because of his own preconceived opinion. In "Signs in the Heavens," page 224, he said, "If the Jewish year 4000 had no real significance in this picture, then I would believe the best chronological, historical and archeological evidence for the start and the end of the Babylonian/Persion era. But since the year 4000 is important for the birth of G-d's suffering-servant Mashiach, I therefore believe that the start of Dani'el's seventy 'sevens' prophecy can only be placed in the second year of Darius..."

We don't have that option. God said Cyrus, not Darius, would say to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. Isa. 44:28 says, "That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid."

I believe that what Avi squeezed into 4000 years (Adam's creation to BC 3) actually covers 4040 years. However, I do believe that it is 4000 years from the time Adam was cast out of Eden in 4004/3 BC to BC 3. This is when man began to be tested as mortal and knowing both good and evil. I think Adam was in the Garden of Eden 40 years before being cast out. I think he was created in 4044/43 BC.

Adding 2000 years from BC 3 brings us to 1998 (3 + 1998 - 1 because there is no zero year between BC 1 and 1 AD = 2000). On the Jewish calendar, 3758 (our BC 4/3) + 2000 = 5758 (our 1997/98). This makes 5758 the 6000th year since Adam was cast out of Eden. Avi places the Rapture in the 6001st year, because he thinks it is the first year of the Day of the Lord. On page 249, he said of the Rapture, "The rapture will not--and I say definitely--will not happen seven years before the start of the millennium; period. It must happen at the very beginning of the millennium." I think this is because he thinks everything will take place within 7000 years--total.

However, Malachi 4:5 says, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." Elijah prophesies during the first half of the Tribulation. The millennial Day of the Lord cannot start with the Pre-Trib Rapture. I think it starts on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14) of the shortened Tribulation.

Eccl. 8:5 says, "a wise man's heart discerneth both TIME and JUDGMENT." I think TIME is 7000 years and JUDGMENT 7 years. The Tribulation judgment could be left out if Israel would turn to the Lord before the Tribulation begins. Lev. 26:27,28 says, "And IF ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times (i.e., years) for your sins."

Adam's 40 years in the Garden of Eden is outside the testing of man as mortal and knowing both good and evil. Also, I think Luke 13:6-9 shows that Israel is given a grace period to show fruit between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation. The 7000-year basic concept of the testing of man is good, but is a bit oversimplified. It is as if the Lord started with the 7000 years and made some additions so it would not be that obvious. He wanted to keep the wicked from understanding. Dan. 12:10 says, "none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

Thanks for your prayers. Ed went to doctor today. He is getting better and can be off oxygen for some periods during the day now.

Incoming Email

FROM CAPS. Here is some infor. re the Harvest Season,etc. The Heb. word for "summer" is Strong # 7019. It has reference to the "harvest, whether the product(grain or fruit) or the season." It is from Strong #6972 which means "to clip off".I conclude from this that the word "summer' indicates the season of the harvest of grain and fruits--especially since the base word means to "clip off".

The Heb. word for "winter" is Strong # 2779 which means "the crop gathered;by implication the autumn and winter season." It is from Strong #2778 "to pull off." I conclude that this word indicates the season when the crop HAS been gathered--"pulled off." It appears from what I have studied that the scriptures mainly mention only two seasons --summer and winter. In Gen. 8:22 summer is mentioned as well as winter. Also, seedtime---which would be the same as winter time, and harvest which would be the same time as summer are all mentioned as pairs.Cold is winter. Heat is summer.

Now look at Leviticus ch 23. vs. 4 mentions that these Feasts are to be proclaimed "in their seasons". Notice that after Pentecost is described in vs.15-21 that the very next vs. desribes the rule re "when you reap the harvest of your land etc, and neither shall you gather any gleaning of your harvest." Then the very next verses start to describe the feast of Trumpets.I believe that the positioning of the regulation re the reaping and harvesting right after the vs. on Pentecost and right before Trumpets is highly informative.This all shows that Summer ended Before Tishri 1. Also it was the norm in Israel to have already gathered the harvest. Exodus 23 mentions re the Feast of Tabernacles that it was to be celebrated when Israel had already gathered in the harvest. Notice also that in James ch. 5 that in speaking re the "coming" of the Lord that James says " the husbandman waits for the precious FRUIT of the earth..until it receives the early and the latter rain." It would seem logical to conclude that the HARVEST --RAPTURE-- would fit into this same time frame--at the end of summer--before Tishri 1.

My reply

In both in Hebrew and Greek, the words for the former and latter rains mean respectively autumnal sprinkling and gathered spring rain, so I tend to think they used all four seasons.

In James 5:7, the word used for the early rain is "proimon," which means autumnal showering. "Opsimon" is used for the latter rain and means spring showering.

Jeremiah said, "Neither say they in their heart, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, IN HIS SEASON" (Jer.5:24). The Hebrew word used for the former rain is "yowreh," which means autumnal sprinkling rain. "Malqowsh" is the word for the latter rain. It means gathered spring rain. Both rain are to come in "his season."

De. 11:14 says, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain and the latter rain." I think Jesus was born as the former rain on Tishri 1 and will return as the later rain on Nisan 1 (first month, first day of the month, Ezek. 29:17,21).

Opposite Tishri 1, Unger's Bible Handbook, p. 165, lists Seed time, Former or early, i.e., autumnal rains begin, and Plowing and sowing begin as soon as ground is softened by the rain--in any weather as the time runs short. Wheat and barley are also listed as sown the next month, in Cheshvan.

In Nisan, the barley harvest begins, in Sivan, the wheat harvest.

> Leviticus ch 23. vs. 4 mentions that these Feasts are to be proclaimed "in
> their seasons".

Four of these feasts are in spring, Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits and Pentecost. What we call the fall feasts, the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement and Tabernacles actually are in the summer in some years and in the autumn in other years. None of the seven feasts are in the winter. Therefore, Lev. 23:4's "in their seasons" surely cannot just mean summer. It must include some other season. I think that it also includes spring and autumn.

> It would seem logical to conclude that the HARVEST --RAPTURE-- would fit into
> this same time frame--at the end of summer--before Tishri 1.

Since we have come this far, I'm hoping the Rapture is the day before Tishri 1, on the Eve of Trumpets. I keep thinking of the four years in the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9. I think they are the Jewish 5758, 5759, 5760, and 5761. If we go to Tishri 1, we drop 5758. In the parable, first the three years are mentioned, then it says, "Lord, let it alone THIS YEAR ALSO, till I shall dig about it, and dung it." I wonder what the "dig about it, and dung it" stand for, and why the fourth year is separated from the three.

Incoming Email

Question #1
What if the the four-year gap of the fig tree parable pertains to the final 3-1/2 years of the Tribulation (i.e., the Great Tribulation), since, by Jewish inclusive reckoning, it would also be four years?

Question #2
You list Tishri 1 as the final Day of Judgement in the year 2007, but wouldn't Yom Kippor, ten days later, on Tishri 10 be more appropriate since it is known as the solemn day of G-d's judgement?

My reply

#1. It is possible, but since there are 144,000 Israeli believers during the Tribulation, it seems to me that the 144,000 would be ripe fruit on the fig tree. In Lu. 13:6-9, Christ comes seeking fruit and finds none.

#2. If you move the end of the 2300 days of Dan. 8:14 to Yom Kippor, the Day of Atonement, then you have moved the beginning of the Seventieth Week of Daniel off the Feast of Weeks that begins the Tribulation. I think the Days of Awe between the Feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement belong to the days after the Sign of the Son of Man is seen and the northern army stopped in its tracks by a piece of the asteroid hitting the Mediterranean Sea. At the same time another piece destroys Babylon on the Euphrates. So many men are killed that a child could write the number of those left. All Israel will be born in a day (Isa. 66:8). Concerning the catastrophe and the Sign of the Son of Man, Ezek. 38:23 says, "Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the EYES of many nations, and they shall KNOW that I am the LORD." Those will truly be Days of Awe. The Jewish remnant will KNOW that Christ is the redeemer the YHWH of hosts (Isa. 44:6). They will repent and be accepted on the Day of Atonement.

Added 8-23-98:

Incoming Email

What I am about to do is something I have not done in years. The other day a friend e-mailed me the "Virtual Church" www site where they had reprinted your article entitled: "The Rapture: It may be nearer than you realize". My friend had noticed that some of what you wrote was similar to things he had heard me say, teach or write.

Although I was busy running my business, I went to the site and just glanced over your article. For what its worth, I was so impressed with your insight that I went to your "Bible Prophecy Corner" and glanced over and downloaded a few of them for later reading.

One of the beliefs that we obviously share is that the teaching that the rapture could take place at any moment, of any day, of any year, is in error. Another belief that we must also share is that the teaching that we cannot know the day and hour of the rapture is also in error. Because of the fact that probably 97 to 99 % of all Bible teachers and preachers teach those things, it clearly takes the Holy Spirit to open the heart and mind of the student to "SEE" the truth.

By now (8/22/98) you know that Pentecost in '98 was not a wrong date for the first rapture. Just based on what little I have seen in your writings, I am sure that you are like me: when time passes the date you expect something to happen and it does not, you go back to the Word (& the LORD), asking Him to open your eyes to "SEE" what you missed. I would be interested in what you have concluded as your mistake.

By no means do I want to seem as if I am being critical of your work. A few years ago the LORD opened my heart to understand that we will ALL be wrong on some things. That includes me. Having said that, may I suggest that one problem may lie in your understanding of the shortened days? In the LORD

My reply

Because of my husband's heart attack and 5-bypass open heart surgery, I have not had time lately to do much deep study. However, I'll tell you what I think. And, as you indicate, none but God is immune to error. Certainly not me, I am not a prophet, just one that studies the scriptures intensively.

I did not consider Mt. 25:5's "While the bridegroom tarried" until after Pentecost, May 31, 1998 passed. I did not consider that the turtledove of Song of Solomon 2:10-14 might migrate to Israel in the late summer or early fall. When verse 11 said, "the winter is past, the rain is over and gone," it spelled spring to me. Winter and the latter rain of Nisan are over and gone before Pentecost.

If the Rapture is to come on one of the seven feasts, I still can't see any possibility but Pentecost. The former rain starts Tishri 1. That seems to rule out the feasts of Tishri; Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Tabernacles. The latter rain starts Nisan 1. That seems to rule out the feasts of Nisan; Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Only Pentecost (in Sivan) is left, and it does belong to the Church. Its birth on Earth would be a good type of its birth into another new world, Heaven.

However, the Eve of the Feast of Trumpets now seems possible. I think Eve, the bride, was taken out of the body of Adam on the Eve of Trumpets. Then, this "kosmos" began to operate on Tishri 1, the Sabbath when God rested. The Eve of Trumpets will still be summer, the time of wheat harvest, and we could still count the Jewish 5758, 5759, 5760 and 5761 as the four years mentioned in the parable of the barren fig tree of Lu. 13:6-9.

Re: shortened days. I do not think a day will be less than 24 hours. That would destroy the literal count of 1260 days, which equals 42 months or 3 1/2 years in Rev.11:2,3; 12:6,14. A Jewish year must equal 353, 354, 355, 383, 384, or 385 days and there must be grain to harvest on the Feast of Firstfruits. Each kind of seed ordinarily requires a certain number of 24-hour days to be ready to harvest on time.

Dan. 8:13,14 is "the vision of the evening and the morning" (8:26). Just as in Genesis 1:5, this is one literal day. Dan. 8:13,14 says, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (i.e., the first half of the Tribulation, 1260 days), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

Thus, the last half of the Tribulation is shortened to 1040 days (1260 + 1040 = 2300). If the Tribulation, also called the Seventieth Week of Daniel, starts on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost in 5761 (our 2001), the 2300 days will end on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets in 5768 (our 2007).

This agrees with Joel 2:1,2: "BLOW ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD (the Millennium) cometh, for it is nigh at hand: A day of...thick darkness...a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like (the united nation's army of Ezek. 38, "all nations," Psa. 118:10-12), neither shall be any more after it."

Added 8-24-98, PM

Incoming Email

do you think the 2nd rapture will happen on Tishri 1 2007 or just before the 2nd half of the tribulation?

My reply

I think the Rapture of the Tribulation saints will be either on the Eve or on the Feast of Trumpets Tishri 1, 2007. They must be out of here before noon on the feast day for that is when the asteroid pieces impact Earth.

Incoming Email

We exchanged letters back in Sept. or Oct. of 1995. I was going to try to search for a comet for you on the Internet, but, after a couple efforts, was not able to get very far, and eventually, I just dropped the whole thing.

I was on the net last night, and was surprised to find your home page. I downloaded about 100 pages of fascinating stuff. God bless you for your diligence!

I am not at all disappointed that the Rapture didn't occur in May of this year, on Pentecost, for although you believed that, I have thought for several years now that it will occur on the Feast of Trumpets. I used to watch Joseph Good on TBN several years ago, and his programs, and his book, Rosh Hashanna and the Messianic Kingdom To Come convinced me of it.

I am still somewhat of an Ultradispensationalist, I have read a lot of Ethelbert Bullinger's works, and use his Companion Bible a lot. But do not believe in soul-sleep, and some of the other peculiarities. Nevertheless, I have learned a lot from Bullinger, and I don't know why more believers don't.

I have also benefitted from Cornelius Stam's works. He is a mid-Acts Ultradispensationalist, as opposed to the end-of-Acts Ultrdispensationalism of Bullinger and Robert Welch.

I guess I would describe myself now as a mid-Acts charismatic Ultra-dispensationalist. Thanks to the Holy Spirit, I speak in tongues. Both of the above groups tend to be cessationist, but I don't agree with that. I believe the gifts operate today, but not like at Pentecost. They operate in a more heavenly sphere. At Pentecost, the 12 apostles spoke in tongues of men to witness to the Jews who had come in from foreign lands. Our one apostle Paul said he spoke in the tongues of angels. And indeed, some of the things the Body does, witnesses to angels.

This long talk is for a reason, and that is that I don't think the church which is Christ's Body began at Pentecost. There was no preaching of the Blood there, nor of the Cross. There was only blame and repentence. Pentecost wasn't the beginning of the Church, but the re-offer of the Kingdom (of God on earth) to Israel. Israel refused the offer. The book of Acts is not the story of the beginning of the Church, but of the fall of Israel, so that, through their fall, the Gentiles may be blessed. With the conversion of Paul on the Damascus Road, the Church begins. The Church has a Heavenly Calling, Israel, an Earthly one.

The preaching of the Blood and of the Cross came first through Paul. Paul's epistle's fulfill (fill up) scripture, that is, complete it. Only through him is the Mystery given, that was kept secret from the ages and generations, but now made known, and that is, Christ in us, the hope of glory. Many Christians sadly do not know the Mystery. They confuse the Body of Christ with Israel. Israel is Israel, and the Body is the Body.

Here are a few comparisons to note: (From Stam's Things That Differ)

         THE TWELVE APOSTLES                         THE APOSTLE PAUL

Represent the nation Israel                     Represent the Body of Christ
12 tribes 12 men 12 thrones Mat 19.28           1 man both Hebrew & Roman
                                                reconciled. Eph 2.16

Called by Christ on Earth  Lu 6.13              Called by Christ in Heaven
                                                Acts 9.3-5
Knew only Christ on Earth  Acts 1.9             Knew only Christ in Heaven
                                                1 Cor. 15.8
Sent to proclaim God's prophesied program       Sent to proclaim God's secret
Salvation of Gentiles through Israel's RISE     Salvation of Gentiles through
Acts 3.24-26                                    Israel's FALL  Rom 11.7-33

Agree to confine their ministry to Israel               Supersedes 12 as Apostle of
after raising up of Paul    Gal. 2.1-9          Gentiles as Israel rejects kingdom
                                                Gal. 2-1-9

Few Christians take note of these, but follow after traditions not true to the Word of God. They thus miss appreciating their Heavenly calling, and Heavenly blessings. Sometimes they even arrogate to themselves Israel's earthly calling and blessings and become anti-Semitic.

All this bolsters my proposition that the Rapture would not occur on Pentecost, because the Church which is Christ's body had not been formed yet. There was only Israel.

Since for a wedding to occur, the Body of Christ as well as the Bride must be present, the Feast of Trumpets is a better time, because the Body had be formed.

At the wedding there are others present, the Friends of the Bridgegroom, which I believe are the O.T. Saints, and the wedding guests at the Supper. But the Body is a Mystery, a secret kept hidden. Twice this mystery is called unsearceable or untraceable in Paul's letters. It is only spoken of by Paul, and only revealed through him, by the Lord of Glory in Heaven.

I must say, your book Heaven Found was a blessing to me, because I have been thinking of my Heavenly blessings in Christ Jesus.

In the Song of Songs, we have the Shulamite woman or sheperdess, and the shepherd, who is not King Solomon. If you will look in the Companion Bible, you will find a lot on this, and references to Dr. Ginsberg, a learned Jew, who is of the same opinion. King Solomon wants to entice the shepherdess to break her engagement with the shepherd and join his harem. Solomon and the harem ladies represent the world. The shepherdess refuses, and goes back to her shepherd love. The shepherdess, I believe, is the remnant of believing Israel, which only is the Bride - we of the Body are not the Bride). Christ is the shepherd. The shepherdess was loyal to Christ at his first advent in the Spring, and will be at his second. That's what it seems to be saying to me.

I think the Rapture will occur on or before this Sept 21.

When was Adam's rib removed? On a Friday? Maybe His rib will be restored on Friday, Sept. 18th, this year. I don't know, just speculating.

Must say good-bye for now. Be blessed in the Lord

My reply

Thanks for your kind remarks. I did not get on the Internet until the fall of 1996.

> Pentecost wasn't the beginning of the Church, but the re-offer of the
> Kingdom (of God on earth) to Israel

The reason Pentecost is called the birthday of the Church is because from that day onward, all believers have the indwelling Holy Spirit. That day marked a break in the way God was dealing with mankind. Man is being tested under different conditions in different Dispensations to prove that some will make it and others will fail, no matter what the conditions are. Thus, in the end, the lost will be without excuse.

> Paul's epistle's fulfill (fill up) scripture, that is, complete it.

Revelation completed Scripture. By the time it was written, of the apostles, only John was still alive.

> It is only spoken of by Paul, and only revealed through him, by the Lord of
> Glory in Heaven.

> The shepherdess, I believe, is the remnant of believing Israel, which only is
> the Bride - we of the Body are not the Bride).

Then why did Paul say, "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ" (II Cor. 11:2)? Why were the ten virgins waiting for the "bridegroom" (Mt. 25:1)?

Incoming Email

Re: Pro and Con 163
For Valerie: In all things give thanks and glorify God. Praise Him and Satan will be defeated and joy will come even in tribulation.

My sister encouraged me with this scripture when I was facing severe trials and discouragement. It made such a difference in my life. At first it seems hard to find things to praise Him for, but you can thank Him for allowing this trial so that you may be strengthened, or learn to trust the more in Him. God is faithful. He will not leave you to face this alone. Praise Him for His faithfulness! In God's love, I will be praying for you. Shirley

Incoming Email

ok, i guess you must have heard or learn by now that the term "of that day and hour knoweth no man..." of Matthew 24:36 is actually an idiom for Rosh HaShanah because Rosh HaShanah is understood to be the "hidden day" and therefor should be given as proof that Jesus was speaking of Rosh HaShanah because Rosh HaShanah is the only day in the whole year that was referred to as the hidden day or the day that no man knew. if the rapture was to occur on Rosh HaShanah Sept. 20 to Sept. 21, it would not fall on a Sabbath. can you explain the discrepency?

My reply

There is a possibility that Elul 29 will be the date of the Rapture. A Rapture includes a resurrection and Elul 29 is on Sunday, Sept. 20, 1998, which agrees with John's "I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10). I think this is Sunday, the memorial of Jesus' resurrection, not the true Sabbath, Saturday.

The Sabbath was a sign between God and the Israelites. It foreshadowed the millennial Day of the Lord. Since the foreshadow had already been set, the Church was allowed to worship on whatever day they chose. Most have chosen Sunday, the Lord's day, although many do worship on the true Sabbath. Sunday worship has characterized the Church era, and I expect the Rapture of the Church on Sunday.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 8-24-98