Pro and Con 169, Uploaded 8-31-98, AM

Incoming Email

I'm surprised that you would write that you "don't know about 'standing time,'" for God has recorded a stopage of time on several occassion. The greatest example is:

Joshua 10:12-14, NIV -- On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon." So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a man. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel!

and let us not forget the time when Hezekiah was ill. The New Living Translation says:

(2 KINGS 20:8-11, NLT) -- Meanwhile, Hezekiah had said to Isaiah, "What sign will the LORD give to prove that he will heal me and that I will go to the Temple of the LORD three days from now?" Isaiah replied, "This is the sign that the LORD will give you to prove he will do as he promised. Would you like the shadow on the sundial to go forward ten steps or backward ten steps?" "The shadow always moves forward," Hezekiah replied. "Make it go backward instead." So Isaiah asked the LORD to do this, and he caused the shadow to move ten steps backward on the sundial of Ahaz!

My reply

I put quotation marks around "standing time" so people would know that I was talking about the kind of "standing time" for an individual that was in the incoming email. I certainly know about Joshua's Long Day and the shadow moving back on Hezekiah's sundial. The Lord holds everything together and keeps planets rotating in orbit. He is omnipotent and can change the rotation when he so desires.

I think Joshua's Long Day prefigures Jesus' Long Day. As the Millennium begins, Israel will be attacked by the army under Gog (Ezek. 38). Two main pieces of an asteroid will impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10). Ezek. 38:20 says "the mountains shall be thrown down." The Earth will be turned upside down (Isa. 24:1), and the Lord will "cast down great stones from heaven upon them" and again, there will be "more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword" (Joshua 10:11).

Incoming Email

Do you believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the manifestation of tongues as shown in Acts 2 - day of Pentecost. Do you speak in tongues. Does your church worship as in 1 Corinthians ch:12? Thanks.

My reply

I believe that Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit the moment we are saved. That is when we are sealed until the day of redemption.

I told the Lord that if he wanted me to speak in tongues it was ok, and if he didn't want me to speak in tongues it was ok. I left it up to him and have never spoken in tongues.

I am Baptist and have never heard anyone speak in tongues in my church. However, I know that God uses this phenomenon at his own discretion and for his own purposes. For instance, if a person sets his mind to know the true God, the Lord is obligated to get the proper information to that person somehow. If someone miraculously speaking that person's language will get the job done, he may choose that route. It is up to him.

Speaking in tongues in the first century was foretold in Isa. 28:9-13: "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with STAMMERING LIPS AND ANOTHER TONGUE will he speak to this people. To whom he said, THIS IS THE REST wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and THIS IS THE REFRESHING: YET THEY WOULD NOT HEAR. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

In Acts 2:16,17, Peter said, "But this is (following the First Advent) that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; AND it shall (in the future millennial Day of the Lord, following the Second Advent) come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams."

In Joel 2:27,28, the Lord said, "And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel (the Second Advent), and that I am the LORD (YHWH) your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed (in the Millennium). And it shall come to pass AFTERWARD (after the Second Advent), that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions."

Just as the kingdom was offered in the first century, and John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah, speaking in tongues was a sign that "this is the rest...this was the refreshing: yet they would not hear." Since they would not have Christ be king at that time, the kingdom will literally come during the Millennium, and speaking in tongues will be manifested again "afterward," after the Second Advent.

In the meantime, the Lord uses tongues when he wants to, but it is not as prevalent as it was after the First Advent and as it will be after the Second Advent.

Incoming Email

I was browsing your website for the first time...having found it from looking at the millenium calendar. I haven't read much end-time material for several years so it's all a bit fuzzy for me. Grant Jeffrey is my favorite on the subject.

A thought occured to me while I was reading your information. The circumcision...on the eighth day...that means 7 days of "living in sin" maybe...then purification. Perhaps this correlates to the 7 years of the tribulation, then the cutting away of the world...of sin...whatever. I would be interested in knowing if you have made any correlation to the circumscision and tribulation?

Thanks for your hard work on all this

My reply

No. I hadn't thought of this one, but since the number eight stands for a new beginning, it figures. The year after the Tribulation is in the Millennium.

Thanks for calling this to my attention.

Incoming Email

Hello and thanks very much for your encouraging reply to me.  I'm not familiar with the Synagogue readings prior to Rosh Hashanah no.  But I thought I'd like to share a thought that came to me the other evening regarding the general timing of the Rapture whether pre or post trib.  Personally I think the weight of Biblical evidence points to pre.  But this thought was in support of pre.  Now we know the mark will be compulsory at some stage.  We also know this would include children.  Many also believe that children before the "age of accountability" are the Lord's and go to heaven if they die.  So if children were around during the Tribulation they would be among those given the mark.  Adn that would disqualify them from heaven.  So logically they couldn't be around during the Tribulation.  And if they couldn't be around, that is we're talking about hundreds of millions of children all over the world, then that must assume a prior Rapture whcih includes children.  Just a thought.

  As you mentioned Rosh Hashanah, I wanted also to share this with you . Last year our little girl was born on 1st October at 4.20pm.  That was I think Erev Rosh Hashanah, the Eve of Rosh Hashanah.  The time thrilled me, since as it was the afternoon in England then in Israel, the time must have been a couple of hours later and likely just as the sun was going down.  Which would have made it exactly Erev Rosh Hashanah.

  Another interesting thing about her birth I've reflected on.  You know how near we are to the implementation of the under-the-skin chip, "the mark".  One near indication is that in maternity hospitals all babies are electronically "tagged" (not implanted obviously, the tag goes round the ankle) for the good reason of security since babies have been stolen out of hospitals.  Now for some strange reason in this very top hospital I was in, my baby wasn't issued with a tag.  I complained a couple of times but it still wasn't done.  Then my husband really made a fuss and it was done, her ankle was ringed with an electronic tag that would have activated if anyone had tried to take her out of the hospital.

Now during this time I wasn't thinking much about the implications of this since I was just annoyed they hadn't ensured her security.  But it did cross my mind, with this persistent failure to "tag" her, was the Lord telling me something I was too deaf to register?  Was he telling me that my child will never be tagged because she'll never carry "the mark"?  It was very odd they didn't do it.  Well I'll know for sure one day. Maybe soon. Maybe today! God bless

My reply

In the latter part, you brought up a subject I had not thought of, but I keep wondering if Jesus saying to suffer the little children to come unto him has any meaning at the end of this age. One thing we do know, God is perfect justice. He will work everything out so it is fair to all in the end. Off the top of my head, I would think that a child under the age of accountability would be taken to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture, no matter what else happened to them before that. They would not be held accountable for someone else's actions.

I looked up the date for Rosh HaShanah, and you are right. Last Oct. 1 was Erev Rosh HaShanah. Since your girl would have been born after 6:00 PM in Israel, I think it was already Rosh HaShanah there.

Oct. 1 was the Eve of Trumpets, the time I think Eve was taken out of the body of Adam the day before God rested and this "kosmos" began to operate. If the Rapture happens this Eve of Trumpets, it will be a wonderful birthday celebration for your little girl as well as for the Bride of Christ being born into another new world.

Incoming Email

Re: Dead horse beaten again:
Just got the time to catch up with the last 5-6 pro-cons. Very glad prayers were answered with regard to Ed. We should always remember our God is one we can talk to and remind him of his word that he will not give us more than we can handle.

Of all the stories in the Bible, one of the ones I like the best is in Exodus 32 where God tells Moses he is going to destroy his rebellious people and start over and Moses tells him he can't do that....That God can't do want he says he is going to do.

With all due respect, we do not have an impersonal God we bow to, but a father that treats us as his kids.

But to our dead horse. In one of the pro/cons the issue of the two witnesses came up. PLEASE keep an open mind on this very minor point. You seem to just "blow off" points of view that do not agree with yours. (Maybe a good thing on balance because of some of the kooky ideas that get presented to you.)

You have looked at the "once appointed to die" and say there are exceptions to the rule. The rule, however, is that sinful man must die (at least) once (and some exceptions may have died more than once)...but there are two witnesses in heaven that have not died yet (not even once). They are Elijah and Enoch, in their mortal bodies. They did not ascend like Jesus did in his glorified body, they are the only two that have lived in the Old testament times and have not yet died. As we go up in the rapture, they come down and begin their preaching in Jerusalem for 3.5 years.

So what is Enoch is not Jewish- nobody was in his day- but the tribulation period is not just a Jewish thing. It is the time of Jacob's trouble, but it also the time of great revival and salvation to multitudes throughout the nations (Rev.7:9). As bad as the judgments of God will be, there may be more individual people saved in 7 years that have been saved in all of mankind's history put together. The "church" of believers (including the believers during the tribulation period) will be made up of Jews and gentiles, so why not one Jew and one gentile witness....no there is no Jew or gentile, but all are within the body of believers, all children of Abraham, right?

I'm "packing my bag" for 9/20/98 and plan to wave to my friend Enoch as I go up and he comes down. Keep up the good work till the end (whenever). Together in Christ The only exceptions to the rule "once to die" will be those of us who are alive at the Rapture (hopefully 9/20/98 about 3pm CST).

My reply

I'm very glad prayers were answered with regard to Ed too. We went to get bread and milk today and stopped by Arby's for a sub sandwich for lunch. It is sure nice that he can go with me sometimes now. It was very hot, 112 yesterday, and expected to be the same today, but we have a good air conditioner in the car. When I stopped to get bread and milk, I left the motor running to keep him cool.

> he will not give us more than we can handle.

Guess he knows I am strong, huh? I get plenty of things to handle. You don't know the half of it. This has been some year.

> there are two witnesses in heaven that have not died yet (not even once).
> They are Elijah and Enoch

We have two Raptures coming up too.

It is ok for you to choose Enoch instead of Moses. I am used to that. Many do. I was not aware of blowing off anyone's ideas. I don't say things like "Not a chance!" I merely tell what I think. This is merely a discussion in agape love of pro and cons on Bible subjects, and we are to be fully persuaded in our own mind. We are each entitled to our own opinion, and mine is that the two witness are Moses and Elijah. You have given your reasons why you think one is Enoch, and I'll give mine why I think it is Moses.

The Bible interprets itself. In Zech. 4, does the "candlestick all of gold (symbol of deity)...and his seven lamps (representing the seven-fold Spirit of God) thereon" represent Christ? Then the two olive trees "are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Jer. 11:16,17 shows that Israel is a green olive tree. It says, "The LORD (YHVH) called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit...For the LORD (YHVH) of hosts (Christ), that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel." Then the two olive trees that stand by the Lord of the whole Earth are Israelites. Moses and Elijah are Israelites. Enoch is not.

When Rev. 11:4 says, "These ARE the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth, I think of Moses and Elijah standing before the Lord at his Transfiguration. Where else do you find two standing in such a conspicuous way with the God of the earth? Did Enoch stand before Him with Elijah? No, but Moses did. He not only stood before the God of the Earth at the Transfiguration, but he did at Sinai.

In Isa. 43:10,11, The Lord said of the chosen nation, Israel, "Ye are MY WITNESSES, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he (YHVH of hosts, Christ): before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD (YHVH); and beside me there is no saviour."

Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

In Rev. 1:8, Christ said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (first) and the ending (last), saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (II Cor. 5:19).

The Tribulation is the fifth cycle of punishment on ISRAEL. Lev. 26:27,28 says, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times (years) for your sins." The Tribulation is the Seventieth Week of Daniel, from Dan. 9:24-27.

The two witnesses "have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will" (Rev. 11:6). Did Enoch ever have such powers? No, but Moses did, when they came out of Egypt (which means "that troubles," i.e., the forerunner of the Tribulation).

The two witnesses also "have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy" (Rev. 11:6). Did Enoch ever have such power? No, Elijah did.

Why do you think "Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil...disputed about the body of Moses" (Jude 9) if Moses is not one of the two witnesses?

> The only exceptions to the rule "once to die" will be those of us who are
> alive at the Rapture (hopefully 9/20/98 about 3pm CST).

And Enoch represents us at the Pre-Trib Rapture. We don't have to die, and he does not have to die.

Elijah's being caught up represents the 144,000 Israelites that do not have to die. They are caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Two Raptures--two types of the Raptures, Enoch and Elijah, one predominately Gentile, the other predominately Jewish. To me, it makes sense.

I doubt that I will get a chance to wave to Enoch, or Moses, or Elijah, on his way down to be one of the two witnesses. I think there is a gap between the Rapture and Tribulation. The ten kings of Rev. 17:12 "have received no kingdom as yet" at the time of the Rapture. By the time the Tribulation starts, they all have "crowns" (Rev. 13:1).

Incoming Email

MJ, (May I call you MJ?) I am impressed that you have evidently figured out the time the prophecies will occur. Now, I am a strong Christian, but when you set times and dates for God's prophecies, aren't you trying to sit in His seat? Aren't you trying to do God's job? What Biblical evidence is there to support your theory that the Rapture will take place in 1998? The Bible says that we should pray so that God's return should be hastened. Now, I know that God knows the time of every event, but what that says to me is that there really is no set time for the Rapture. Remember in the 1960's when everyone thought the Rapture was going to happen, so they packed and waited, but it did'nt come? perhaps Christ was ready to come. Maybe he has been for years, but when he sees people trying to guess the time, he says, "no, not yet." I know God knows when it will all happen, but he will come 'as unexpectantly as a theif.' If you try to guess the time, he won't be unexpected, will you? You know, in the Old Testament, when people prophesied, God told his servants that if even one word wasn't true, to KILL them. On your first page, you admitted you were wrong about your first prediction. In the O.T. you'd be dead by now. Are you really willing to say "I know this is of God, and if it doesn't come true, kill me."?

My reply

Have you never heard of "JUDGE not, that ye be not judged, For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again" (Mt. 7:1,2)?

I have always emphasized that I am NOT a prophet. I said that I THOUGHT the Rapture would be on Pentecost in l998. Are you error free yourself? Then cast the first stone. You have to answer to the Lord for every careless word, just as I do. We are human. We can all make mistakes.

I saw a rectangle of light on Jer. 50:2 that said, "publish, and conceal not." I am doing what I think the Lord wants me to do rather than doing what man wants me to do. Let the chips fall where they may.

Admittedly, I have said some outlandish things. Who but me ever thought that the cherubim of Ezekiel 1 and 10 were actually the terrestrial planets in concentric orbits? Who but me ever thought that the "fire infolding itself of Ezek. 1:4 was the sun? Who but me ever thought that the flaming sword of Gen. 3:24 was a shard of Satan's planet that split apart, and that the flaming sword was "the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth" of Zech. 5:3, the Sword of the Lord that would strike and destroy Babylon on the Euphrates River? the "great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" of Rev. 8:10? Who but me ever thought that Ezek. 29:17,21 tells us that Christ will return on Nisan 1? Who but me ever thought that Heaven was a planet in our solar system? Who but me ever thought that the seven eyes on one stone of Zech. 3:9 represented the seven rainbow-like orbs/circles/rings around Heaven? Who but me ever thought that the ten curtains of the Tabernacle represented the ten original cherubim (planets) of our solar system, that the one hanging over the back corner represented Earth? that the seven curtains from Earth to the front of the Tabernacle represented the planets represented by the Lampstand? (the same as the seven cherubim at the east of Eden) and that the center lamp of the Lampstand represented the Lord's throne? Who but me ever thought that the "sapphire stone" of Ezek. 1:26 tells us exactly where Heaven is located. Paul indicated that Heaven was the third heaven, and I agree.

In all these outlandish things I have said, I have always said that I THINK this is so, or I BELIEVE this is so. I have never made myself out to be infallible or a prophet. I do have something that I can say for sure, Jesus Christ is God. I would die for that one. I KNOW who he really is.

Interpreting end-time prophecy is not an easy subject, but I am studying and watching as Jesus commanded. He wouldn't have said 23 times to watch if it wasn't important. I would rather be a fool for Christ than to be caught not watching.

> What Biblical evidence is there to support your theory that the
> Rapture will take place in 1998?

I wrote a book, "Exit: 2007: The Secret of Secrets Revealed," and my Home Page on my Web site to tell you the answer to this. It took me 23 years to write that book. And now it is a "theory" by your own words. In OT days, were they supposed to be killed for a "theory"?

To give you a brief synopsis, I think that the Sign of the End of the Age was the Six-Day War of 1967 when Israel grew leaves (Mt. 24:32), and that this age will end in the 40th year thereafter (Mt. 24:24). The last day of the Jewish 5767 is Sept. 12, 2007. I think the next day, the Feast of Trumpets is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. I also think that Feast of Trumpets is the Day of God's Wrath (Joel 2:1,2) and the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation (Dan. 8:14). This would place the beginning of the Seventieth Week of Daniel (Dan. 9:27) on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost in 5761, our 2001. Four Jewish years (Lu. 13:6-9) before that would be 5758, our 1998 (5758, 5759, 5760, and 5761). According to Bible chronology, I think the year 5758 is the 6000th year since man began to be tried as mortal and knowing both good and evil, when Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden. The year 5758 means the season of Noah; 58 spells Noah (Mt. 24:37).

Right now, I hope the Rapture will be on the next Eve of Trumpets, Sept. 20, 1998, but there is one thing I may not have mentioned with regards to that. In Rev. 2:28, Jesus promised the churches, "I will give him THE MORNING STAR." This does not seem to be Christ for the believers already have Christ in their heart. I THINK that the Rapture will be while Heaven is still a morning star. It is still a morning star now, but will become an evening star in late October. In His abundant love

Added 9-1-98, AM:

Incoming Email

I had purchased your book on "The End of the Age" about a year ago. Also visited your web page, both dates predicted May 31, 1998 and June 7, 1998 have come and gone. The information seems very convincing, however, as you know the rapture has not taken place, what are your views now? I'm a leader at my company to help make our company the year 2000 compliant (y2k). The computer bug that worries management that we won't be ready. We build control boards for heating/cooling. This bug seems could be a bigger problem then most people realize and what effect if any would this have to due with prophecy?

My reply

I just received some information on the turtledove's migration pattern that puts it in Israel in the autumn. This is one of the clues given in Song of Solomon 2:12. The KJV has "turtle," but it is really turtledove. Lord willing, I will post it on Pro and Con 169 tomorrow. It is too late to do much tonight.

This afternoon and up until a bit after 11:00 PM, I was afraid to use my computer because of lightning. I unplugged it because I can't afford another if I lose this one. At least 26 houses have been burned so far in an area that starts about five miles south of March Air Force Base. Various fires have been started by lightning. The forecast for tomorrow is like today, 108 degrees by midday, then more thunderstorms in the afternoon and evening. I knew we were getting a weather change when I awoke this morning with seemingly all over pain and a killer headache. My son had to scurry to try to save our Mimosa tree in the front lawn. I helped what I could, pushing one trunk of about five while he drove stakes and tied it down. The very strong gusts of wind have caused the ground to break in a semi circle on the windward side. The roots very nearly heaved out of the ground. This is the second time we have had to fight to save it. Ed and I did it the other time. Ed asked if he could help this time, but after open heart surgery, there was nothing he could do. He's using a walker and can't lift anything over five pounds.

Note: The morning paper showed the lightning-sparked fires were many and much closer to us than the TV news revealed last night. Ten empty houses burned at March Air Force Reserve Base, which is so close that the pilots practicing their "touch and goes" turn over our house. Tonight, TV news says that 50 houses and 50 other structures have burned. The fires are only 50% contained. One is to be allowed to burn right to El Toro Marine Base perimeter. They will try to stop it there. At least we didn't have another storm today.

Back to thoughts on the Rapture. I remembered that Jesus told the churches in Rev. 2:28, "I will give him the morning star." This morning star does not seem to be Jesus, because the believers already have him in their heart. This must refer to Heaven. Earlier, I had thought that it was only a morning star at Pentecost and not at the Feast of Trumpets. Last night, I got out my chart, and found out that it is still a morning star until the latter part of October. Since I think that Eve was taken out of the body of Adam on the Eve of Trumpets, I am hoping that the Rapture of the Bride of Christ out of the Body of Christ will take place Sept. 20, 1998. We need to get ready, stay strong and wait patiently until it happens, whenever it is.

This may be a time of testing, when Satan is allowed to sift us as wheat. We are wheat, and this is literally the time for winnowing wheat here in Southern California. We are nearly the same latitude as Israel too. We need to withstand the trials put upon us, no matter how hard it is to see our way through. We have to remember that Christ will never leave us, and he is stronger than the adversary. Christ will not allow more to be put on us than we can stand. We must be overcomers.

I think the Y2K bug will throw a big monkey wrench into world affairs. It might just be the catalyst that would shove the nations into a stronger World Government for the Tribulation years. It may have something to do with implementing the use of the MARC. From that time on, it isn't going to be fun. Look at the number of nations already in trouble, then add the Y2K problem. Ouch! Think of the people living on military retirement pay and Social Security like my brother. Those checks just may not arrive on time. I think it will be a big headache. Even those that manage to be compliant will be affected by those who are not.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 9-1-98