Pro and Con 170, Updated 9-2-98, PM

Incoming Email

FROM CAPS . Here is some infor. from the 5 DOVES site re the Harvest Moon: "Some Astronomy in September"

--- According to Sky and Telescope Magazine, September 6, 1998 is the Harvest Moon. It occurs 7:21 am EDT. Also, occuring is a penumbral (shaded by Earth's outer shadow) lunar eclipse. This is the last eclipse in 1998 and the ecliptic is at Pisces. The moon shines near Jupiter, which for September is the dominate planetary body to watch in the night sky and visible all night.

Another magazine, Astronomy, gave additional information about the September sky . "Mercury and Venus, in the morning, chase Regulus in the constellation Leo". Mars also is in the morning. Saturn shines second only to Jupiter, among the planets, over in Cetus and Pisces.

In September, Aldebaran (red star eye of Taurus) will rise signifying winter and Arcturus in Bootes (the Herdsman) "gives its last glimmer until spring", according to Astronomy, magazine.

The magazine also says, "The month closes with Pegasus being led to the river of starlight that divides the Milky Way by Delphius the Dolphin."
Over the weekend I went to the library to study more about the TURTLEDOVE. Here is a summary of what I found out.This is from about 7-8 different books and encyclopedias. An atlas on bird migration says the Turtledove migrates to the sub-saharan Africa in winter. It remains there until March, then begins the journey back north. It builds nests in May. This evidently is when the bird gets back to Europe ahd Central Asia. Fall migration -south--may begin in late July; but peaks in August and SEPTEMBER. There are three routes south--one of which is the EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN. This would put the southward migration right through Israel. Most books indicate that the bird migrates to either northern Africa or Mid-Africa. None indicate it actually stops in Israel.

The Encyl. Americana 1991 ed. says the birds"migrate in SEPTEMBER to winter in North Africa." Yet another book says the TD(turtledove) breeds in May -July, and migrates south in August and September. It then returns to the North in April/ May.

GRZIMEKS'S book on animal life says the TD breeds in MAY,JUNE, AND JULY in Northern /Europe and then "forms flocks in AUTUMN prior to Southern Migration.

Note that the Feast of Pentecost is usually at the end of May or early June. This means that the TD in returning North would already have gone back through Israel since it Migrates North in the Months of March and April --arriving in Europe to start nesting in May.The southern Migration is in AUGUST AND SEPTEMBER--THE MONTH OF ELUL. Finally, here is another piece of infor. from the 5 doves site:

"Turtledoves," (26 Aug)
The migratory birds of the Bible all arrive in the daylight except the turtledove which arrives at night. They are extremely noisy and attract much attention.

Jeremiah 8:7 : "..the turtle and crane and swallow observe the time of their coming.."

Song of Solomon 2:12 :" ..and the voice of the turtle is heard in the land."

According to an atlas on bird migration. the turtledove arrives in late April and builds nest in May, Perhaps, the real question might be, when do they leave? "Fall" migration peaks in August and September.

Psalm 74:19: "O deliver not the soul of thy turledove unto the multitude of the wicked.."
---end of 5 doves quote.

The "sign" of the TURTLEDOVE is mentioned as one of SEVEN SIGNS in Song of Sol. ch. 2. Right BEFORE and right AFTER these 7 signs are given it says this:"ARISE, MY LOVE, MY FAIR ONE, AND COME AWAY." See 2:10 and 2:13.

My reply

Thanks for digging this out and straightening me out on the harvest moon and the migration of the turtledove. I can't get away to even run to the library these days. I sure appreciate your doing it.

Incoming Email

FWD: The Watchmaker Has Been Found!!!!
Scientist have found proof of the watchmaker argument for creation with a neutron microscope. Apparently the media has been keeping it hushed up. It seems one main fundamental argument that evolution is based upon is that all complex organisms are composed of combinations of "simple" cells. Not in dispute is the fact a human has a trillion or so of these individual cells. Now it is learned, for each "simple" cell to function, it has to have at least 3 trillion micro-machines made mostly of protein compounds. (Did I hear someone say what is this ≥junk≤ DNA for?) The coincidental odds of that being an accident are about one in... forgetaboutit! This level of micro design complexity is also why mere man can't create "life" in a test-tube. It is speculated that even Darwin himself would never have argued for evolution had he known any of this. Life does not now, and never did, ≥just happen!≤

I learned this today from a sermon on TBN by:
Dr. D. James Kennedy, Coral Ridge Ministries, PO Box 555, Coral Ridge, FT Lauderdale FL 33302

Please write to him and request a free copy of the sermon titled: "Fearful and Wonderfully Made"

Incoming Email

I hope this note finds you and Ed both well. We have been praying for you both, and trusting God to heal Ed and keep you both strong. I came across this information about the occultation of Al Debaran on Sept. 12. Al Debaran is the star that is the "eye" in the constellation Taurus. Bullinger states that Taurus is a picture of Christ coming in judgement. The name "Al Debaran" means governor. I couldn't help but think of "the twinkling of an eye!" Love to you both. Watching and Praying
Aldebaran Graze September 12, 1998
In the lumbering world of astronomy there are only a few events that are observable in a human lifetime. The exciting part of a grazing occultation takes place in three to four minutes. Join us for this fast paced adventure on the night of Friday/Saturday, September 11/12.

At about 2:00 A.M. CDT the north limb of the moon will just graze the BRIGHT star Aldebaran. The mountains and valleys of the moon will cause the star to blink off and on as they pass in front of it. You will see a minimum of one disappearance and one reappearance, but there could be a dozen or more events.

My reply

We sure appreciate the prayers. Both Ed and I are strong mentally and spiritually, but weak physically. As he gets stronger, I hope my back pain will diminish. He can get up and walk around the house now with his walker without my help.

Hope I can remember to look at the sky on Sept. 11. This twinkling of the "eye" will be interesting to see, but the light of the moon often obscures things close by.

Incoming Email

Re: Thanks
I just wanted to write to thank you for your site, "Pros and Cons", it has been truly encouraging and uplifting for me. Jesus is everything to me. I have a wonderful family here on this earth, and the Lord has blessed me greatly. But my greatest longing everyday is to be with my Lord and Savior. In the last couple of weeks I've allowed Satan to pull me away from fellowship with my Savior through fear and anxiety over this y2k issue. I recently read a book written by Michael Hyatt called "The Millenium Bug",. The facts it portrayed about the year 2000 and the problems we're up against frightened me terribly. All my energy lately has been spent on trying to prepare for this disaster. There is no doubt in my mind the Holy Spirit led me to your Webster, to get my eyes back where they belong on Jesus, and by faith and trust in him, have joy and hope in my life again. I've always wondered how Satan could pull together a One World Order, when there are so many who still love their independent Nations. The disaster worldwide this y2k has the potential to create, is just what could bring in a World Leader who could come up with all the answers to a world in chaos! After reading your e-mails , I have hope in my heart of a very, very soon rapture, my joy is restored. Thank you! May God bless you for your faithful service. After all this , I do have one question I'd like to ask your opinion on, I love the Lord with all my heart, but my finances at this time doesn't allow me to tithe completely right now. I want to, and in the future plan to. My heart hurts over this issue, and I'm scared not tithing is being disobedient. Could this keep me from being raptured in the first rapture of the Bride? Thank you again.

My reply

In answer to your last question, I don't think so. Tithing is Old Testament. It was mandatory, like our taxes. The tithes supported the priests as our taxes support our government. In the New Testament, we are to give love gifts, and God loves a cheerful giver. Give as you are able.

Incoming Email

Due to the often-described "seven-year" economic expansion we had been experiencing, I often wondered if the Joseph-in-Egypt analogy would be[come] applicable in our day. This story, occurring near the end of Genesis, dominates the book. I believe, like many others, that Genesis is a miniature Bible, perhaps like some say the book of Job is. If so, the story's placement is curious.

The first time around, Joseph -- the benevolent ruler of all mankind under Pharaoh -- saved mankind through his control of the world government, economy, and religion.

The final time around, Antichrist -- the evil ruler of all mankind under Satan -- will attempt to destroy all mankind through his control of all of the same elements.

Something caught my attention on M.J. Agee's web-site a few days ago on Pros and Cons #167. It references the following link:

I did additional secular research regarding the above and was amazed at the parallels 1991 has to 1998. It seems that just as 1991 was the year that launched the "seven good years," 1998 may just be the year that launches the "seven bad years." The globe got caught up in the feeling that they were in control and that the prosperity level and rate of change would continue on forever. I think G-d is now displaying his power and rulership. Perhaps each critical time point from 1991 to 1998 will have its corresponding compliment during 1998 to 2005.

The Open Scroll also maintains that Yom Kippor 1991 marked the start of a fourteen-year period.

The study of the seven-year cycle that ran from 1938 to 1945 that was posted at this site a little over a month ago is also fascinating, but I haven't traced 1931 to 1938 yet.

Lastly, I once saw that the Oslo I Peace Accords, signed in September of 1993, originally had their origins in the fall of 1991. Does anyone have the date and/or the specifics?

I am interested in the thoughts of other readers.

May we keep our trust in Yeshua ! ! !

My reply

I don't really think 1998 to 2005 is the Tribulation.

Things about Joseph do seem to tie in today. For instance, the 7 good years followed by 7 bad years, and maybe, the taking up of a fifth of the grain in the good years.

Counting by Jewish inclusive reckoning, there is now only one time, before the 40 years of the last generation run out (5727 + 40 = 5767, our 1967 + 40 = 2007), that the period between the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Trumpets six years later contains the required 2,300 days (Dan. 8:14) for the shortened Tribulation.

There are 2329 days from Sivan 6, in our 1999 to Tishri 1, in our 2005
There are 2298 days from Sivan 6, in our 2000 to Tishri 1, in our 2006
There are 2300 days from Sivan 6, in our 2001 to Tishri 1, in our 2007

If we did not use inclusive reckoning, the two periods ending in 2005 and 2006 still would not fit. We would have 2328 and 2297 days for those periods. Therefore, I think the beginning of the Tribulation will be on the Feast of Weeks in 2001.

Counting 7 years back from Sivan 6, 2001, brings us to 1994 for the beginning of the 7 good years. They would be roughly our 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, and 2000. IF we are the fifth of the grain that is to be taken up in the seven good years, it just MIGHT indicate l998, the fifth year, for the Rapture. We will know soon.

Incoming Email

I have written to you before and am trusting in God to prove what He has shown from my own conjectures in the past about what will shortly happen in this upcoming year.

First, I have always felt as though the Lord would be coming in 1999 in the Rapture. One of the few things which has deterred me from this conclusion in the last few months is when my wife has told me of dreams which the Lord has shown her and a vision of seeing a future child we have together being involved in the ministry. If the child will be ministering just in the next life; and Jesus is coming by the end of 1999, I believe that God will work to tell my wife to hurry up and get pregnant a couple years before we are planning to have a kid (sometime in the next 6 months or so)! Anyway, I am not going to discount this possibility. In regard to this upcoming year, I can envision false church doctrine aligning in accordance with United Nations and EU priorities for political agendas in World governments to achieve world peace by incorporating large numbers or a majority of church members and organizations tied in to heads of state to develop the plans and consensus for the upcoming false peace plan with Israel which will be in effect, I believe by the beginning of 2000. With the obvious ramifications of the downward spiral of stock markets worldwide, the government of Russia ready to crash as well, incredible disasters (like China where more than 4 percent of the WORLD'S population have been effected by the disastrous floods of late) that the world is ripe for deception. It is enforced peace (probably by that upcoming leader of the European Southern nations coming to power next year) who will be in position to use the common currency to build world markets; and allow world trade and monetary controls, along with military intervention to force a peace treaty whose date seems to be at a deadline for 1999 to be enforced, lest World War 3 break out. So I guess a main point here is that I believe the church itself is about to be judged; "Who will you serve?" Will we compromise doctrine so that the world agenda is passed? Or will our hope turn heavenward for something even better than the best plans of "mice and men"; namely, the RAPTURE?

Your thoughts?? (Sorry Jesus didn't come this year; if we are ready to die for Him as you seem to be, I guess if He tarries longer than either of us expect, we can still wait expectantly; for to live is Christ and to die is gain.) In Him

My reply

Don't rule out this year yet. It isn't over. However, if the Rapture isn't this year, I'll expect Christ sometime before the Tribulation begins.

There are so many things coming to a head in this world, the consummation of the age cannot be far away no matter how you cut it. I am in a holding pattern waiting for takeoff.

I keep thinking of the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9. Here is what Jesus said and what I have thought it meant: "A certain man (Christ) had a fig tree (Israel; Joel 1:7, Hos. 9:10, Eze. 36:8, Jer. 24:5) planted in his vineyard (eretz Israel, the land of Israel); and he (Christ) came (at the Rapture) and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years (5758, 5759, and 5760, our 1998, 1999, and 2000) I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also (5761, our 2001), till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down (i.e., in the Tribulation)."

If the Rapture comes Sept. 20, 1998, this interpretation will still fit. One day more and it will not, for we would drop 5758 from the count. Is there any other way to take it?

Can the parable refer to the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation? It is possible for the Jews count part of a year as a year. However, I do not think it is likely for the 144,000 Jews probably are converted by Moses and Elijah during the first half of the Tribulation. That is fruit.

For some reason, the fourth year is separate from the three. It is different too because in that year, Israel is dug about and dunged. It seems that whatever that stands for could be the issue that would force Israel to confirm the covenant for 7 years.

The parable still seems to point us to 1998 for the Rapture, unless the digging and dunging would be in the first year of the Tribulation. That would make 1999 seem possible.

Incoming Email

FWD: John Tng's posting to Five Doves site:
I have been rather busy these days because of increased workload and responsibilities in my job due to a recent promotion. There is an interesting verse that says -- "For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south." (Ps 75:6) IOW, promotion cometh from the NORTH -- the direction where we ought to seek our promotion from.

I have something new to share. Maybe someone has pointed this out before, but I have just realized something NEW about the Feasts of Israel. As we know, there are 3 main feasts -- Unleavened Bread (or Passover), Pentecost (or Weeks) and Tabernacles (or Temple). We have been expecting a Pentecost Rapture and with good reasons too. I am not thinking rigorously here, but maybe you doves may want to correct me here. One Pentecost Rapture reasoning could go like this (of course, among several others) -- the Spirit descended on the Body on Pentecost and after a period of harvesting (say about 2000 years), He will return to the Father on Pentecost. After the Church is gone, God's plan for Israel can then be continued and fulfilled during the Tabernacles. Hence, all the feasts of Israel will be fulfilled prophetically.

My thinking is I believe the Church will need to fulfill the Feast of Tabernacles too! Then, Israel will fulfill her share of Tabernacles. There is a DOUBLE fulfillment for ALL 3 feasts. The First Passover was fulfilled LITERALLY by the Israelites. The First Pentecost was fulfilled when the LAW was given to the Israelites through Moses, as a confirmation to the OLD COVENANT.

Jesus fulfilled the First Passover SPIRITUALLY for the Church. During the Passover supper, He gave the Church the NEW COVENANT with the institution of the Bread and Cup. The Holy Spirit came down on the First Pentecost as a GUARANTEE/DEPOSIT to the NEW COVENANT. (LAW became LETTERS in our hearts -- the Pentecost link)

What is happening here is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit fulfilled once again the two feasts which had been fulfilled in Moses' day. In other words, the OLD FEASTS WERE MADE NEW for the Church. I believe the Last is now the First, i.e. the Church who was the Last is now the First. The Church will continue to fulfill the 3rd feast and later on Israel will most likely fulfill the Feast of Tabernacles during the Millennium. Hence, these feasts will be fulfilled completely and eventually by both Israel and the Church, i.e. ALL Israel.

Figuratively, the three metaphors progress logically:

Passover -- passover from death to life
Weeks -- after weeks of pilgrimage
Tabernacles -- finally arrive at the Temple of God

There is a possibility that the Tabernacles had already been fulfilled for Israel after the Red Sea Crossing in the history of Israel (e.g. the first two temples were dedicated during this feasts, as pointed out by Charles.) However, I tend to think a future fulfillment of the Tabernacles is more probable. Notice the PRESENCE of GOD during the fulfillment of the following feasts:

Passover -- Pillar of Clouds and Fire, i.e. GOD (possibly the Spirit)
Pentecost -- GOD descended on Mount Sinai

Passover -- GOD the SON was the Passover LAMB!
Pentecost -- GOD the SPIRIT came to dwell in the BODY.

Logically, we should expect:

Tabernacles -- GOD the SON will come for His BODY.

Tabernacles -- GOD the SON, GOD the SPIRIT indwelling the BODY, will come to redeem Israel.

Like I said, the above may not be new. It just seems new to me.

Maranatha, John Tng

My reply

I have doubts about Tabernacles for the Rapture. Song of Solomon 2:11 says, "the winter is past, the rain is over and gone." The former rain begins Tishri 1, and Tabernacles starts Tishri 15.

Incoming Email

First of all, I want to thank you for writing your incredibly interesting book, I have started doing ministry work because it, which has been extremely rewarding. I have some information that might be new to you that I hope you''ll read, I think it substantially strengthens your case.

I just realized that Noah was 480 years old when the Lord told him to build the ark, since he was 600 years old when the flood came and he had 120 years warning. It fits in well with your timeline, 480 years from 1517. As Charles Capps points out in his must read book, Endtime Events, the 120 years may be for the 120 Jubilee Years which equals 6000 total years. The most interesting information I know of that totally fits your timeline is by J.R. Church.

1. When each psalm is taken a for a year in this century, psalm 98 would represent 1998, in which a trumpet is blown and in psalm 107= 2007 it begins the deuteronomy psalms where they enter into the promised land after 40 years. The 40 year journey started in 1967, same as in your parable of the fig tree. Psalm 48 contains information about rebirth of Israel in 1948, ect. Psalm 104-106 contain a description of what could represent Israelites during tribulation. Please read these psalms and see that this is for real.

2. When you take the Jewish calendar and make a day represent a year, and set Feast of Trumpets at 1998 and Day of Atonement at 2007/8, then the 1939-1948 fall during the 9 dark days, 1948 falls on the 9th of Av, and other dates in Israels history fall on important Jewish feast days or Sabatical years. There are the 10 Days of Awe that fall between Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement, and 3 days after Feast of Trumpets starts a 7 day period= 7 year period when the high priest starts the ritual to prepare for the sacrifice. This exactly matches your timetable with rapture in 1998, and 3 years later starting the 7 year tribulation period in 2001. On Feast of Trumpets the righteous are immediately inscribed into the book of life, while the wicked are given 10 days before Judgement Day on Day of Atonement.

3. In C. Capps book he points out all of the other 70 year judgements on Israel, 70 years Captivity, then punish 7X more= 490 years, which in your scheme starts in 1517. Also 70 Jubilee Yrs = 3500 years from 1500 BC to 2000 AD of bondage from Gentiles.

I am convinced that this not accidental, it seems to be the Lords plan as you have pointed out. These timetables seem to fit precisely. I got J.R.'s information from Prophecy in the News 1998 and 1997 issues, you may have already read it,but I wasn't sure. I hope you will add this information to your website to strengthen your case. I think its very possible to be raptured on Feast of Trumpets this year, as you do. Keep Looking UP

My reply

Thanks for the interesting information. I will put it up immediately so others can read it.

Further reply added 9-2-98, PM:
Today, I printed out your information and studied it while the weather front moved by us. Here is what I came up with:

I had not thought about Noah's being 480 years old when the Lord told him to build the Ark tying in with the 480-year modern parallel (5678 + 480 = 5758, our 1997/8). Thanks for telling me. It fits. For more on this, see: Parallels in the 400's

I copied the Jewish calendar for this year, and plotted the first date of 5708 (our 1947/8) on Av 9, the date the fire was started at the destruction of both temples. (It burned on into Av 10.) This caused 5768 (2007/8) to fall on Tishri 10, the Day of Atonement, as you said. The same would be true on the calendar of any year for the number of days in these months do not vary from year to year. What differed from what you said is where 5758 fell--on Sunday, 29 Elul, the Eve of the Feast of Trumpets, NOT on the Feast of Trumpets. Here is the list:

Av 9 = 5708 (1947/8); Av 10 = 5709 (1948/9); Av 11 = 5710 (1949/50); Av 12 = 5711 (1950/1);
Av 13 = 5712 (1951/2); Av 14 = 5713 (1952/3); Av 15 = 5714 (1953/4); Av 16 = 5715 (1954/5);
Av 17 = 5716 (1955/6); Av 18 = 5717 (1956/7); Av 19 = 5718 (1957/8); Av 20 = 5719 (1958/9);
Av 21 = 5720 (1959/60); Av 22 = 5721 (1960/1); Av 23 = 5722 (1961/2); Av 24 = 5723 (1962/3);
Av 25 = 5724 (1963/4); Av 26 = 5725 (1964/5); Av 27 = 5726 (1965/6); Av 28 = 5727 (1966/7);
Av 29 = 5728 (1967/8); Av 30 = 5729 (1968/9); Elul 1 = 5730 (1969/70); Elul 2 = 5731 (1970/1);
Elul 3 = 5732 (1971/2); Elul 4 = 5733 (1972/3); Elul 5 = 5734 (1973/4); Elul 6 = 5735 (1974/5);
Elul 7 = 5736 (1975/6); Elul 8 = 5737 (1976/7); Elul 9 = 5738 (1977/8); Elul 10 = 5739 (1978/9);
Elul 11 = 5740 (1979/80); Elul 12 = 5741 (1980/1); Elul 13 = 5742 (1981/2); Elul 14 =5743 (1982/3);
Elul 15 = 5744 (1983/4); Elul 16 = 5745 (1984/5); Elul 17 = 5746 (1985/6); Elul 18 =5747 (1986/7);
Elul 19 = 5748 (1987/8); Elul 20 = 5749 (1988/9); Elul 21 = 5750 (1989/90); Elul 22 =5751 (1990/1);
Elul 23 = 5752 (1991/2); Elul 24 = 5753 (1992/3); Elul 25 = 5754 (1993/4); Elul 26 =5755 (1994/5);
Elul 27 = 5756 (1995/6); Elul 28 = 5757 (1996/7); Elul 29 = 5758 (1997/8); Tishri 1=5759 (1998/9);
Tishri 2=5760 (1999/00); Tishri 3=5761 (2000/1); Tishri 4=5762 (2001/2); Tishri 5=5763 (2002/3);
Tishri 6=5764 (2003/4); Tishri 7=5765 (2004/5); Tishri 8=5766 (2005/6); Tishri 9=5767 (2006/7);
Tishri 10=5768 (2007/8)

The three years before the high priest starts the ritual to prepare for the sacrifice would be 5759 (1998/9), 5760 (1999/00), and 5761 (2000/01). This corresponds to the years between the Rapture in 1998 and the beginning of the Tribulation on the Feast of Weeks in 2001.

The seven years following would be 5762 (2001/2), 5763 (2002/3), 5764 (2003/4), 5765 (2004/5), 5766 (2005/6), 5767 (2006/7), and 5768 (2007/8). This corresponds to the Tribulation.

The judgment of the wicked after ten years (5758 to 5768) fits, for I think the Judgment Seat of Christ is Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007). This also fits the 490-year modern parallel (1517 + 490 = 2007). This is astonishing. I never thought to plot years on the daily Jewish Calendar. Thank you so much for letting me know about this correlation. I'm hoping for the Rapture on Elul 29, Sept. 20, 1998.

I understand that the Jubilee cycle is a 49-year cycle. The 50th year is also the first year of the next cycle. Thus, the Sabbatic Years and Jubilee years stay aligned.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 9-2-98