Pro and Con 174, Uploaded 9-11-98, AM

Incoming Email

Hi & praise the Lord, Please update me on my queries. I have lately been trying to find answers to:
1. When and how was the 4th Commandment (Sabbath) amended - to Sunday. Any scriptural proof or apostolic practices in the Scripture? Was it Constantine the emperor who changed the Sabbath to Sunday?
2. Baptismal formula (Mt 28:19). Why apostles baptized in the name of Jesus Christ - in spite of Mt 28:19
3. Trinity: I happened to read some arguments not in favor of Trinity. It seems very convincing. It is God the Father, The Son of God, and the Holy Spirit; - not God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The recent trend to pray to the Spirit doesn't seem proper in the light of scriptures. and
4. Pre-trib and post-trib theories. It doesn't really matter to me (I think !) so long as we keep ourselves ready for the rapture. I am eagerly making efforts to read all the pages in your web. I would love to hear from you your view on the above 1,2 & 3 points. Your view is obvious on item 4. I am still reading the articles. Since you have been studying the scripture for so many years, perhaps I can get some information from your wealth of knowledge. As for me, I am a lay person, in Bombay, fellowshiping with the AG group. With love and greetings

My reply

1. The Lord said, "I gave them (Israel) my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them." The Sabbath is still Saturday, the seventh day of the week.

Sunday worship basically came about because Christ arose on Sunday, the first day of the week. This was the proof of who he really is. He had the power to lay down his life and the power to take it up again.

The disciples did meet on Sunday. Acts 20:7 says, "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them." I Cor. 16:2 says, "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

Col. 2:16 says, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Now that the seventh-day shadow of things to come has been established, we are free to choose any day we wish to worship on. I worship sometimes on Saturday and other times on Sunday.

Seven is the Lord's number. It means completion and perfection. It marks his heavenly throne, the seventh planet in the original lineup, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Rahab (now the Asteroid Belt), Jupiter and Saturn, which is further marked with seven rings. "Zech. 3:9 in the Septuagint says, "as for the stone (i.e., planet) which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes (orbs, circles, rings)." These rings are "As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about" (Ezek. 1:28).

The seventh day shadowed the seventh year of the Tribulation, when Christ will be crowned with his golden crown in Heaven on the first day of the Civil Year and return to Earth seven months later, on the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year (Ezek. 29:17,21; Hosea 6:1-3; Joel 2:23; De. 11.14). I expect the Second Advent on Nisan 1, 5768 (our April 6, 2008). April 6 is the anniversary of the Crucifixion on our calendar.

The seventh day also shadowed the seventh millennium, called the Day of the LORD. I think it starts on Coronation Day, Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007), which is the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation (Dan. 8:14).

2. and 3. Since Christ is also YHVH (II Cor. 5:19; Isa. 44:6; Rev. 1:8; 22:13), and the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God (Rom. 8:9), the name Jesus Christ actually encompasses "the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Mt. 28:19). Jesus said, "I am the root (YHVH) and the offspring (Jesus) of David" (Rev. 22:16). He was both God and man. II Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself."

"IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:1-3,14). Also, "a body hast thou prepared me" (Heb. 10:5). "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (I Tim. 3:16).

His dual natures are easily seen in Isa. 9:6: "For unto us a child is born (his human nature inherited from his mother), unto us a son is given (his deity inherited from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

4. I think there are two Raptures, Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath, the first for the Bride of Christ, the second for the rest of the Body of Christ, including the foolish virgins, the Laodiceans and the Tribulation saints. I think the prize Paul was running the race to win is to be part of the Bride of Christ, the group taken up in the first Rapture. He said, "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:14).

Incoming Email

Re: Chin up - please read:
I figure your 'hate mail' to 'fan mail' ratio will be about 10:1 due to the fact that...we are all still here. Marilyn, you are many years my senior but, at the risk of being patronizing, let me say - 'keep your chin up!'. Marilyn, you have been an inspiration to me and countless others. Your incredibly deep and insightful knowledge of the Scripture has increased my interest in the Bible ten-fold.

Your finidings caused great debate between me and the friends of mine who study Bible prophecy. I have never been much of a pre-tribber, but I do recall saying when singled out and put on the spot by a friend of mine who asked me point blank if I agreed with your findings: "I've read from Jack Van Impe to Hal Lindsey, and Marilyn's work is the darndest thing I've ever read. I'll just have to wait and see if she is proven wrong." The bottom line is that you've caused many of us to get our Bibles out and get back into the Word. You've strengthened a flame, at least with me and my family, that has needed tending to for some time now. Lost faith? Hardly.

One has only to turn on the news to find overwhelming evidence of the strange times in which we live. End-time events, regardless of how they play out exactly, can't be far off.

Perhaps the removal of the 'Restrainer' is not exactly that those containing the Holy Spirit are wisked away to heaven, but that maybe many of those who believe will abandon their faith due to the fact that so many horrible things are happening without any reassuring signs from heaven. 2nd Peter 3:3,4: "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." (NIV). It is hard for me to reconcile a pre-trib rapture with the logic of this Scripture. I would think that if there were a significant disappearance of people around the world, that the obvious response to the scoffers would be 'Silly scoffer, don't you remember when all those Christian folks disappeared? That is part of the promise. It's in the Bible. Let me show you. just a thought. Maranatha

My reply

Thanks for your kind words and encouragement. Sorry to be so long in answering. I still have over 400 emails in my Inbox--down from 528. Strangely enough, there were far fewer hate mails than I would have thought. Of course, there was one person that sent in over 400 copies of the same thing. Before I deleted those, my emails were over 900. The duplicates were easy to get rid of. I just clicked on the first, held down the shift key and clicked on the last, then hit Delete.

It was encouraging to find that more people were ready for the Rapture than I realized. They must not have wanted to risk getting out of fellowship with the Lord. Many of the hate mails that did come in were vitriolic. After awhile, I published one of the worst on a Pro and Con. Then, to try to cut my emails down to manageable proportions, I started deleting them, unread. In a Reply, I told someone that as soon as I saw what they were, I hit Delete. They stopped coming in. Maybe that took the fun out of it, or, maybe the sudden unexpected death of Frank Lee Tullock from natural causes at a fairly young age had something to do with them stopping. I don't know. I didn't know the man, but he sent me terrible stuff by postal mail twice. I wouldn't answer him because he just wanted to pick a fight. Nothing is gained by arguing with one who is not about to listen to anything. Nothing is gained unless people discuss pro and cons in Christian agape love. Both can gain insight in the latter case and profit thereby. No one person knows everything. There is far too much in the Bible for one person to figure out. The uncharted waters run deep.

Don't worry about me, I keep getting hit by all kinds of things, my husband had a heart attack and open heart surgery, for instance, but I am still "chin up." My faith cannot be broken, no matter what. Ed is recovering from his surgery, and his faith is strong also.

> Perhaps the removal of the 'Restrainer' is not exactly that those containing the Holy Spirit
> are wisked away to heaven, but that maybe many of those who believe will abandon their faith
> due to the fact that so many horrible things are happening without any reassuring signs from
> heaven.

I think we are being tested. I also think the Rapture is a sure thing, and that when we, the salt that restrains the growth of leaven, are gone, the wicked one will be allowed to come to power. I used to say that it was the Holy Spirit that was restraining, and in the end, it actually is. However, one day I was reading the booklet that came with our breadmaking machine. I was tickled to find out that the amount of salt is so important in controlling the growth of leaven that if you put in too much, the bread won't rise. If you put in too little, it will overproof. Now I understand why Jesus said that we are the salt of the Earth. Our very presence is restraining the wicked one because of the Holy Spirit in us. He restrains for our sake. When we are gone, he will not restrain any longer, and evil will come to a head. The worst seven years since Adam was put on Earth "shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10).

Now, I understand better the next verse. Jesus said, "Behold, I come quickly: HOLD THAT FAST WHICH THOU HAST, THAT NO MAN TAKE THY CROWN." We are having to hold fast right now, "That the trial of your (our) faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at THE APPEARING of Jesus Christ. Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory" (I Peter 1:7,8). That is good advise for today, hold fast. We will see the appearing of Jesus Christ when the time is right.

The scoffing unbelievers will probably not believe even when told why we disappear. They don't believe the Bible, so one could not prove anything to them by the Bible. They will believe some of the enemy's lies, maybe even blaming aliens. Remember what II Thess. 2:10-12 says: "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Isa. 57:1-4 says, "THE righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY (the Rapture), none considering that the righteous is TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME (the Tribulation). He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore. Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood?" Here you can see that the Rapture happens first, then the two beasts of Rev. 13 come on the scene spouting the lie.

Incoming Email

First of all I would like to tell you how awesome your wake up call is. it was a wake up call to me and several others. Although not to one person. A friend of mine is a Christian but his denomination doesn't believe in the rapture. I am only 15 and do not have the knowledge of scripture enough to give him sufficient evidence of it. He is a very good friend of mine and is extremely open minded and intelligent. I would really appreciate it if you could e-mail me back with some biblical text and scripture that I could show him in order to convince him of the rapture's truth.

He is 18 and only goes to the church he's at for lack of a better. He told me himself that some of the viewpoints of his church he doesn't agree with because it wasn't stated in the Bible. I'm confident that he could change his mind on his view of the rapture if I could produce biblical reference.

As much reference as possible is needed and very, very appreciated. My e-mail is and this Information is needed A.S.A.P!!!!! Thank you for your time and God Bless You!

My reply

I am glad I could be a wake-up call for you. We are close to the time of the Rapture and should not hit the snooze button. We should get ready and stay ready until the Lord comes to take us to his heavenly home.

Your friend seems to realize that the Bible is the only real truth we have. It truly is the only safe thing to go by. Everything anyone says must be compared with the Bible to see if it is true or not.

In John 14:2-6, Jesus gave us a precious promise. He said, "In my Father's house (Heaven) are many mansions (dwelling places): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I WILL COME AGAIN, AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF (the Rapture); that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know (we can know where Heaven is, but that is another subject), and the way ye know...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Of course, to be able to go to Heaven, we must first accept Christ as our Saviour. Therefore, the first thing one should do is pray and tell Jesus Christ you accept him as your Saviour. Then tell someone you believe in Christ. Romans 10:9 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

A Rapture is when Christ comes in the air and catches up believers to take them to Heaven to be with him. What will happen at the Rapture is described in I Thess. 4:13-18. It says, "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren (believers), concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (the dead in Christ) will God bring with him (they are in Heaven already). For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto THE COMING of the Lord (at the Rapture) shall not prevent (Old English for precede) them which are asleep (the dead in Christ). For the Lord himself (Christ) shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (this is the first trump): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP (from harpazo in Greek, rapiemir in Latin, and Rapture in English, i.e., caught up = Raptured) together with them in the clouds, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Another scripture that describes what happens at the Rapture is Rev. 4:1,2. John was caused to act it out for us. He said, I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice (Christ's) which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER...And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven."

Another scripture that shows what happens at the Rapture is Mt. 24:37-41. It says, "as the days of Noe (Noah) were, so shall also THE COMING of the Son of man (Christ) be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also THE COMING of the Son of man be. Then (at the Rapture) shall two be in the field, the one (who is part of the Bride of Christ) shall be taken, and the other left. Two women (symbol of two religious groups) shall be grinding at the mill; the one (the Philadelphians, Rev. 3:7-13) shall be taken (go through the "open door" of Rev. 3:8) and the other (the Laodiceans, Rev. 3:14-22) left." The Laodiceans are spewed out of his mouth because they are only lukewarm (Rev. 3:16).

I think there are two Raptures, one Pre-Trib (the Bride of Christ caught up at the first trump), the other Pre-Wrath (the rest of the Body of Christ caught up at the last trump). The one for the Bride of Christ is Pre-Trib. This includes the wise virgins of Mt. 25:1-12 and the Philadelphians before whom the open door is set (Rev. 3:8). The one for the rest of the Body of Christ, including the foolish virgins (Mt. 25:1-12), the Laodiceans (Rev. 3:14-22) and all Tribulation saints is Pre-Wrath.

The first Rapture is seen in Rev. 4:1. The second in Rev. 7:14. Between them is Rev. 6, which begins with the Beast riding forth as a prince of peace on his white horse as the Tribulation begins, and ends with "the great day of his (the Lamb's) wrath is come" at the end of the shortened Tribulation.

The second Rapture is on that very day, but before the Wrath of God is poured out. It happens between the sixth seal of Rev. 6:12 and the seventh seal of Rev. 8:1. The wrath is poured out as the seven trumpet judgments begin to sound in Rev. 8:7, after ALL the firstfruits, the whole Body of Christ, is safe in Heaven by Rev. 7:14.

The first Rapture is as the days of Noah; no fire fall that day. The second Rapture is as the days of Lot; fire falls that same day. Luke 17:28-37 says, "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded: But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the days when the Son of man is revealed...In that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken (the believer), and the other (unbeliever) shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord: And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body (Body of Christ) is (in Heaven), thither will the eagles (high flyers, i.e., the Tribulation Saints) be gathered together."

It is inconceivable that Paul could lose his salvation, yet he was running the race to receive "the prize" and to not be "a castaway." (I Cor. 9:24-27). To me, this indicates that the Philadelphians win the prize of the Pre-Trib Rapture, and the Laodiceans are the castaways. Paul said, "So run that ye may incorruptible" crown. In Rev. 4:4, the elders "had on their heads crowns of gold" and gold is incorruptible. It all fits together.

To the Philadelphians, Jesus said, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Rev. 14:1-5 shows the Tribulation saints in Heaven, but no crowns are mentioned. However, to the Laodiceans he said, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne" (Rev. 3:21). His throne is in Heaven (Rev. 22:3). All believers will get to Heaven eventually, but the ones that are ready are caught up in the Rapture before the Tribulation. The rest have to go through the Tribulation up to the point that God's Wrath is to be poured out on the unbelievers remaining on the Earth after both Raptures have taken place.

To be ready for the first Rapture, we must have accepted Christ and have confessed all our sins committed since we accepted Christ. We want to be counted as pure wise virgins who are filled with the oil of the Holy Spirit when the Bridegroom (Christ) comes for his Bride. This Pre-Trib Rapture is not far off. Therefore, we must make ourselves ready and wait patiently until it takes place.

Incoming Email

From the same person as above:
I just sat down for a few minutes to read your,"Rapture in Song of Songs". It was wonderful. You tied in how it seems to discribe the time of the Rapture coinciding with the flowers blooming, migratory turtledoves in the spring, green figs between April 26 and the end of May. I've got my eyes lifted to heaven, hoping for the Sept. 20 rapture. I might add, I've always belived the Rapture would be in September. I don't even know why. Just like a "knowing in my spirit"? Anyway, I was wondering if you still think the "Song of Solomon" is discribing the rapture. And how it could tie in with a fall Rapture instead of a spring rapture. I also want to say in all my years of bible study, and different churches I've attended, there's always been a few questions I've had in the back of my mind that have not been answered, or come together, until I stumbled across your website. ( Although I know it wasn't stumbling, it was the Holy Spirits guiding, praise God!) I now have peace, with a greater understanding, and I thank you for sharing the wisdom our Savior has given you.

My reply

Yes. I still think the "Song of Solomon" (2:8-14) is discribing the rapture. However, it can indicate either spring or summer. I had not realized that the turtledove migrates from Europe to Israel in the late summer or early fall. The place where I lived in Indiana where we had lots of doves, the dove came back in the spring. I thought that April showers bring May flowers too. However, flowers bloom all summer also. I thought it was talking about the firstripe grapes, but grapes ripen and give a good smell into the fall too. The vintage begins in Elul and continues in Tishri. Since winter is past and the rain is over and gone, any time after the latter rain of Nisan and before the former rain of Tishri fits. I am now hoping for the Eve of Trumpets, Elul 29, our Sept. 20. I think Eve was taken out of the body of Adam on the Eve of Trumpets, then this "kosmos," order of things, began to operate on Tishri 1, the day that God rested. Maybe the Bride of Christ will be taken out of the Body of Christ on the Eve of Trumpets too. We will soon know.

Incoming Email

I have been reading your pro/cons for about 5 months now and have found them very interesting. Have you thought of the International Date Line "Time zone" for the Rapture, Instead of Jerusalem at midnight? Would you think at the twinkling of an eye exactly at midnight, the Rapture would happen and everyone who goes will go on the same day, not some on the 19th, some on the 20th or 21st maybe. But all on the "SAME" day, just a thought. Also another thought, what do you think about the Red Heifer? Do you think that they will sacrifice her very soon? I heard they were to sacrifice her later this month, and if they do, I believe the Rapture will happen first. I pray for your back to be healed and Ed's complete healing, see you in heaven real soon. I KNOW it will happen soon, its like a MAGNET pulling me, I know it's near. A Rapture loving brother in Christ

My reply

Thanks for your prayers. Ed fell this morning, but evidently did not hurt himself. We went out to eat after that, and he is ok. He was going to the phone to find out the cross streets where he wanted to go for breakfast. The only other time, he just went down on his knees. Maybe now he will listen to me and use his walker every time, just for insurance, because he's still unsteady on his feet. He fell because he can't pull his big toe toward his face on the leg where they took out the vein. His big toe turned under and down he went. I was still asleep and he couldn't make me hear him. Dave found him after about five minutes and woke me to help get him up safely.

I didn't think of the Int'l Date Line myself. That sounds possible.

I don't know when they will sacrifice the Red Heifer, but like you, I think it will probably be after the Rapture.
Note: Ed went to Doctor yesterday. Good news, his blood oxygen level is now 93-95. He can discontinue oxygen; his C Pap machine he uses at night should help keep his oxygen level up. Dr. was all smiles, and said Ed did not have to come back for two months. At that time, they will check on cholesterol level. Many thanks for all your prayers. Not everyone gets along so well after this type of surgery. After hearing of his own and his friend's cases from our waiter when we went out to eat after we left the Doctor's, we are doubly thankful to the Lord that Ed's recovery has gone so well.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 9-11-98